Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Any idea as to what amount I should ask for when i sell my 6 month old g10 on craigslist

Call Panasonic and demand a full refund for the black levels rising.

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post #1352 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Call Panasonic and demand a full refund for the black levels rising.

Panasonic replaced my first g10 because it was a loud buzzer, I have a feeling they will look my account up, and not be to helpful. I will give it a try today. The black levels are just part of the problem though, its the image retention that is really bothering me.

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post #1353 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Call Panasonic and demand a full refund for the black levels rising.

I can anticipate them rejecting that demand as no specific black level measurement has ever been advertised for this tv.

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post #1354 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

I can anticipate them rejecting that demand as no specific black level measurement has ever been advertised for this tv.

Right, but they did represent a specific contrast ratio: 40000:1 Yes, it's nonsense, but I'd challenge a tech to come out an measure 40000:1 on any of our TV's, especially with rising blacks.

Black Level and contrast ratio are directly related, unless the TV's just getting brighter, which it's not.
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post #1355 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Black Level and contrast ratio are directly related, unless the TV's just getting brighter, which it's not.

With a black level I have, this set should be bright like a sun to have 40 000:1 contrast ratio.
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post #1356 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Right, but they did represent a specific contrast ratio: 40000:1 Yes, it's nonsense, but I'd challenge a tech to come out an measure 40000:1 on any of our TV's, especially with rising blacks.

Black Level and contrast ratio are directly related, unless the TV's just getting brighter, which it's not.

If they actually did that, they would set it to Vivid with contrast at 100 and measure a all black screen (and it would be off thanks to the auto dim thing) and a very small white square to get that 40k number.

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post #1357 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 12:09 PM
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Just got off the phone with level 1 support. She said she had never heard of the problem, but took notes and said a level 2 support tech will call me back. I have a 58V10 on backorder, and am trying to get some answers while I still can do something about it.

I basically asked if they were aware of the problem and if they would be fixing it. She assured me that someone reads these forums closely and work on issues that need addressing. I told her that my decision to go through with my purchase directly depended on what their answer is to this set of questions, since black level is central to the performance of the set.

I'm not holding my breath, and I'm mightily conflicted on whether or not to let my order fill now. Also, who's to say the 13G sets in 2010 won't have the same kind of bug? Hopefully with enough prodding they will address this issue. It would be good if those with contacts can discreetly check back and see if Panasonic is taking this issue any more seriously now that this thread is getting hot and people are starting to call in.

Also, the subject of this thread needs to be changed to something more dire and attention grabbing, like "After a couple hundred hours black level on all 2008-2009 Panasonic plasma panels degrades". That will really raise some attention. Does the original poster have to do this?

-Jim
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post #1358 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

If they actually did that, they would set it to Vivid with contrast at 100 and measure a all black screen (and it would be off thanks to the auto dim thing) and a very small white square to get that 40k number.

Ahh...the art of benchmarkmanship!
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post #1359 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by heckheck View Post

Just got off the phone with level 1 support. She said she had never heard of the problem, but took notes and said a level 2 support tech will call me back. I have a 58V10 on backorder, and am trying to get some answers while I still can do something about it.

I basically asked if they were aware of the problem and if they would be fixing it. She assured me that someone reads these forums closely and work on issues that need addressing. I told her that my decision to go through with my purchase directly depended on what their answer is to this set of questions, since black level is central to the performance of the set.

I'm not holding my breath, and I'm mightily conflicted on whether or not to let my order fill now. Also, who's to say the 13G sets in 2010 won't have the same kind of bug? Hopefully with enough prodding they will address this issue. It would be good if those with contacts can discreetly check back and see if Panasonic is taking this issue any more seriously now that this thread is getting hot and people are starting to call in.

Also, the subject of this thread needs to be changed to something more dire and attention grabbing, like "After a couple hundred hours black level on all 2008-2009 Panasonic plasma panels degrades". That will really raise some attention. Does the original poster have to do this?

-Jim

It's good to confirm(?) they are reading this forum.

Thanks for being proactive with this thing. I got my 54s1 really cheap during BF week but if I were spending $2-3.5K on a v10, I would definitely have a second thought like you.
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post #1360 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by heckheck View Post

Just got off the phone with level 1 support. She said she had never heard of the problem, but took notes and said a level 2 support tech will call me back. I have a 58V10 on backorder, and am trying to get some answers while I still can do something about it.

I basically asked if they were aware of the problem and if they would be fixing it. She assured me that someone reads these forums closely and work on issues that need addressing. I told her that my decision to go through with my purchase directly depended on what their answer is to this set of questions, since black level is central to the performance of the set.

I'm not holding my breath, and I'm mightily conflicted on whether or not to let my order fill now. Also, who's to say the 13G sets in 2010 won't have the same kind of bug? Hopefully with enough prodding they will address this issue. It would be good if those with contacts can discreetly check back and see if Panasonic is taking this issue any more seriously now that this thread is getting hot and people are starting to call in.

Also, the subject of this thread needs to be changed to something more dire and attention grabbing, like "After a couple hundred hours black level on all 2008-2009 Panasonic plasma panels degrades". That will really raise some attention. Does the original poster have to do this?

-Jim

I'm not able to change the actual thread title, just the bolded tag that shows up at the top of the OP. Guess you have to contact a mod about it.
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post #1361 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

If they actually did that, they would set it to Vivid with contrast at 100 and measure a all black screen (and it would be off thanks to the auto dim thing) and a very small white square to get that 40k number.

Haha, if only!

40,000:1 is the quoted native contrast ratio. (theoretically on one screen image)

With Vivid mode and Infinite Black, they claim a 2,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio.

I think we all know the contrast ratio numbers are cooked up in some fashion or another, but it's at least a spec they advertised that is directly related to black level.
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post #1362 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hikarate View Post

This was discussed quite a few pages back, and people with raised black levels also complained of IR, so they seem to go hand in hand.

IR has also raised on my set after the black level rise.
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post #1363 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I'm not able to change the actual thread title, just the bolded tag that shows up at the top of the OP. Guess you have to contact a mod about it.

it might best if the OP requested a mod to change it rather than random people in the topic. Just to keep the issue moving forward.
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post #1364 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 01:19 PM
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Perhaps a poll for each model would be a good idea?

I've placed an order for a 58S1 but now considering cancelling it...
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post #1365 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 02:26 PM
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Just be advised that its going to be 6 months (at least) or so before we can have any knowledge of this bug being/not being in the 2010 13G panels ...

So if you can wait, then I'd be thinking about cancelling too ... I have just decided not to buy anything 12G bc of this bug.

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post #1366 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I'm not able to change the actual thread title, just the bolded tag that shows up at the top of the OP. Guess you have to contact a mod about it.

Or start a new thread and all those affected can contribute screenshots, meter readings, etc.
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post #1367 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 02:34 PM
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Panasonic wants to send a tech out again, even though I explained the problem with D-Nice's terms in an email. I'd feel bad for the techs but they're getting paid so I doubt they care.

Since whatever they do this time is not going to fix the problem, should I just ask for a refund and wait for the 2010 models? Seems like hope is fading on a real solution from Panasonic.
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post #1368 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 02:43 PM
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Just be advised that its going to be 6 months (at least) or so before we can have any knowledge of this bug being/not being in the 2010 13G panels ...

More like 12 months.. 6 months until the new '10 set is available, 6 months to age it to the point where the bug would have definitely shown up.

I'm -><- close to calling and canceling my order. Everything in my head is screaming CANCEL!! The waiting is not too much of an issue, though the wait will likely be long, which is unfortunate. In another thread Cleveland Plasma said the current V10 would not be replaced until June.

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So if you can wait, then I'd be thinking about cancelling too ... I have just decided not to buy anything 12G bc of this bug.

I'm bummed. I really could have been happy with the features of the 12G, especially since they are/have fixed the THX decode issue. Also, the Pannasonic EPP store just cut their discount from 28% to 20% on V10s, so my backorder is at a VERY nice price, so it pains me to cancel it.

It just seems unlikely that they will fix the bug. The set is currently selling VERY well, with a substantial backlog. They might not want to risk lowering the voltages in a widely deployed patch, since that could cause start problems for people that need the higher voltage for an aged panel. They're busy with the new sets, and I doubt the average consumer will be calling about this, so it's unlikely they'll be inundated with calls. The only hope is their fear of a press/review backlash and/or class action suit (merits seem questionable, easy for them to defend their engineering decisions).

I'm still waiting to hear from a level 2 tech. Who knows how long it will take for them to call me back.

-Jim
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post #1369 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 02:51 PM
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We need to start emailing review places like CNET and HDGURU (extremly biased toward the pannys, probably paid by panasonic) to update their reviews of the 12G panels, these reviews claimed that the new panels were a hair away from Kuro black levels, this will definitely get their attention. We could also send this info to Sony, Samsung, but I am sure they are already reading this thread and so is Panasonic!
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post #1370 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:05 PM
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We need to start emailing review places like CNET and HDGURU (extremly biased toward the pannys, probably paid by panasonic) to update their reviews of the 12G panels, these reviews claimed that the new panels were a hair away from Kuro black levels, this will definitely get their attention. We could also send this info to Sony, Samsung, but I am sure they are already reading this thread and so is Panasonic!

Cnet would be the best place to start, Orta has all of the measurements and stuff to prove the rise in blacks so he would probably be the best one among us to pursue this option. If this gains enough steam to make the front pages of some of these sites, it may just get fixed.


Still waiting for my 54V10 to show up.... Might call the tech later in the week if I don't hear anything.

And Orta, how is your S1 holding up?

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post #1371 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:07 PM
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More like 12 months.. 6 months until the new '10 set is available, 6 months to age it to the point where the bug would have definitely shown up.

[big snip

-Jim


Historically, the new Panasonc models start appearing on the shelves at the end of February or early March. Usually the lower priced ones show up first but after that the timing of the rollouts of the other models appear somewhat random.

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post #1372 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

We need to start emailing review places like CNET and HDGURU (extremly biased toward the pannys, probably paid by panasonic) to update their reviews of the 12G panels, these reviews claimed that the new panels were a hair away from Kuro black levels, this will definitely get their attention. We could also send this info to Sony, Samsung, but I am sure they are already reading this thread and so is Panasonic!

was this black level problem cited on the v10's. I know they said 11-12g models, but I have only heard it on the g10 and s10 models. Can someone on this thread confirm they see it on there v10. And if it was said on this HUGE forum I missed it.

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post #1373 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:20 PM
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was this black level problem cited on the v10's. I know they said 11-12g models, but I have only heard it on the g10 and s10 models. Can someone on this thread confirm they see it on there v10. And if it was said on this HUGE forum I missed it.

Yeah, Donnymac claimed his measured an increase. It is somewhere on this thread in the first 10 pages or so. I do not think anyone else has.




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post #1374 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Cnet would be the best place to start, Orta has all of the measurements and stuff to prove the rise in blacks so he would probably be the best one among us to pursue this option. If this gains enough steam to make the front pages of some of these sites, it may just get fixed.


Still waiting for my 54V10 to show up.... Might call the tech later in the week if I don't hear anything.

And Orta, how is your S1 holding up?

Anyone going to the CES show in Las Vegas this week? It could provide an opportunity to mention this issue to some press people/reviewers who might be visiting the Panasonic display at the show.

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post #1375 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Cnet would be the best place to start, Orta has all of the measurements and stuff to prove the rise in blacks so he would probably be the best one among us to pursue this option. If this gains enough steam to make the front pages of some of these sites, it may just get fixed.

Heh, honestly I was just going to suggest the same thing. Send out an email to Cnet to make them aware (if not already). Maybe that would grab Panasonic's attention if Cnet published an updated review.

I would also suggest someone like Orta with actual before and after measurements to do it.

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post #1376 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:27 PM
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Yeah, Donnymac claimed his measured an increase. It is somewhere on this thread in the first 10 pages or so. I do not think anyone else has.


ok so if I want to measure this now and again in about 2-3 months what do I use to get an ACCURate reading for my black levels. by no means am I an expert at this stuff. All i can say is that mine has not changed by my eyes so I might be able to still see if it does happen.

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post #1377 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:30 PM
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Heh, honestly I was just going to suggest the same thing. Send out an email to Cnet to make them aware (if not already). Maybe that would grab Panasonic's attention if Cnet published an updated review.

I would also suggest someone like Orta with actual before and after measurements to do it.

His side by side comparison of the G10 after the rise and a S1 before the rise is also a good demonstration and would help back up his measurements. The only way Panasonic will fix this is if they think it will cost them a lot of sales, and it will take a good bit of publicity for that to happen. If Cnet posts it, a lot of other sites will run with it as well.

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post #1378 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:37 PM
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ok so if I want to measure this now and again in about 2-3 months what do I use to get an ACCURate reading for my black levels. by no means am I an expert at this stuff. All i can say is that mine has not changed by my eyes so I might be able to still see if it does happen.

I cannot help you with the measuring part of this. All I know is that if it does happen on my V10, I am confident that I will be able to notice with my eyes. If I cannot see it, it didn't happen. After all thats what really counts anyway in the end




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post #1379 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

His side by side comparison of the G10 after the rise and a S1 before the rise is also a good demonstration and would help back up his measurements. The only way Panasonic will fix this is if they think it will cost them a lot of sales, and it will take a good bit of publicity for that to happen. If Cnet posts it, a lot of other sites will run with it as well.

Agree 100%. Here's David Katzmaier's cnet page where one can write to him. Haven't found a direct email address though.

http://www.cnet.com/profile/katzmaier/?tag=mncol;txt

His reviews often contain updates based on post-review findings so if some of us alert him about this, there's a good chance he will update his review. Perspective plasma tv buyers need to be aware of this issue. People should know if they are buying a car that loses a good chunk of its horsepower after 5K miles.
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post #1380 of 11487 Old 01-05-2010, 04:16 PM
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More like 12 months.. 6 months until the new '10 set is available, 6 months to age it to the point where the bug would have definitely shown up.

I'm -><- close to calling and canceling my order. Everything in my head is screaming CANCEL!! The waiting is not too much of an issue, though the wait will likely be long, which is unfortunate. In another thread Cleveland Plasma said the current V10 would not be replaced until June.



I'm bummed. I really could have been happy with the features of the 12G, especially since they are/have fixed the THX decode issue. Also, the Pannasonic EPP store just cut their discount from 28% to 20% on V10s, so my backorder is at a VERY nice price, so it pains me to cancel it.

It just seems unlikely that they will fix the bug. The set is currently selling VERY well, with a substantial backlog. They might not want to risk lowering the voltages in a widely deployed patch, since that could cause start problems for people that need the higher voltage for an aged panel. They're busy with the new sets, and I doubt the average consumer will be calling about this, so it's unlikely they'll be inundated with calls. The only hope is their fear of a press/review backlash and/or class action suit (merits seem questionable, easy for them to defend their engineering decisions).

I'm still waiting to hear from a level 2 tech. Who knows how long it will take for them to call me back.

-Jim

Jim, I don't think this issue is showing up on V10s. I have over 500 hrs on my 65V10 with no change in the black level. I believe you ordered the 58V10 and I think it would be a mistake to cancel, especially if you got the 28% discount deal. The V10s are great panels.

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