Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 49 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 6Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1441 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 10:00 AM
Gov
AVS Special Member
 
Gov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NW Burbs of Chgo, IL
Posts: 3,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 105
It would be nice to hear from "Donnymac" again to see how his V10 is doing now. I think he is the only person who posted a measured rise in black levels on a V10.

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
Gov is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1442 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 10:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
NightowlKY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Winter Garden, FL USA
Posts: 725
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

All the units had the dimming issues. (I had 2 54G10s with that problem) It is where your settings are brighter than the limiter will allow, so it dims the screen when it gets too bright. (a character walking on screen in a animated film can cause a brightness shift easily) Contrast at 46 in custom mode was needed to stop the dimming, but I liked it at 67 for most content.

Black levels tend to jump between 100 and 400 hours most of the time, but it could take up to 2000 hours for it to happen....


I'm about to hit the 100hr mark, myself.

I'm half paranoid to even turn the thing on but I figure it's pointless to let it sit and collect dust.
NightowlKY is offline  
post #1443 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 10:42 AM
Advanced Member
 
wase4711's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: outside Chicago
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 97
please see post 1422....
wase4711 is online now  
post #1444 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 10:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by wase4711 View Post

please see post 1422....

D-Nice has already stated that this is an issue with every Panasonic to come out in the last 2 years, it just isn't always an instant jump like we were initially complaining about.

My advice is to just enjoy the TV and if the blacks do go up, call Panasonic and complain about it. (infact, you should do that regardless, they need all the complaints they can get)

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is online now  
post #1445 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 11:46 AM
Member
 
anthrojohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Question: Is it "normal" for a completely new G10/G15 to display .012ftL on a black screen, with brightness turned down to zero?

If I returned my set (to a local store) is there a GOOD chance that my new set would have deeper blacks (.008ftL)? If my G15 is displaying blacks at the high end of "normal" I feel like I am getting sub-par experience knowing that my set COULD be displaying .008ftL. That would mean my set is displaying 50% brighter blacks (BAD) than it should be capable of.

Thanks for listening and for any input you may have.
anthrojohn is offline  
post #1446 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Member
 
Bdemers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Question: Is it "normal" for a completely new G10/G15 to display .012ftL on a black screen, with brightness turned down to zero?

If I returned my set (to a local store) is there a GOOD chance that my new set would have deeper blacks (.008ftL)? If my G15 is displaying blacks at the high end of "normal" I feel like I am getting sub-par experience knowing that my set COULD be displaying .008ftL. That would mean my set is displaying 50% brighter blacks (BAD) than it should be capable of.

Thanks for listening and for any input you may have.

What meter did you use for the measurement? From what I've read here, those levels are really below the capability of most consumer meters to measure accurately...
Bdemers is offline  
post #1447 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 12:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryInRI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in RI
Posts: 5,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

What meter did you use for the measurement? From what I've read here, those levels are really below the capability of most consumer meters to measure accurately...

They are not.

Larry
LarryInRI is offline  
post #1448 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 12:46 PM
Member
 
anthrojohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

What meter did you use for the measurement? From what I've read here, those levels are really below the capability of most consumer meters to measure accurately...

I used an Eye-One Display LT meter, which I have read is capable of such readings.
anthrojohn is offline  
post #1449 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 12:48 PM
Member
 
Bdemers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

I used an Eye-One Display LT meter, which I have read is capable of such readings.

I stand corrected. I've never purchased a meter myself, but that will be the point at which I know I've gone too far!
Bdemers is offline  
post #1450 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 12:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryInRI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in RI
Posts: 5,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

I used an Eye-One Display LT meter, which I have read is capable of such readings.

Yes. The LT is capable of reading 0.006 ftL according to the specs from X-Rite. Tom Huffman found that it could accurately read down to 0.004 ftL. The LT is better than the i1 Pro for low light level readings.

For those that are interested, search the calibration forum. The data is all there.

Larry
LarryInRI is offline  
post #1451 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 01:11 PM
Member
 
anthrojohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Yes. The LT is capable of reading 0.006 ftL according to the specs from X-Rite. Tom Huffman found that it could accurately read down to 0.004 ftL. The LT is better than the i1 Pro for low light level readings.

For those that are interested, search the calibration forum. The data is all there.

Larry

Thanks for the confirmation, Larry!

With the plasma(s) that you own, do you find your black level readings to be BELOW .012ftL? I ask mainly because I find that at .012ftL, the blacks are not as dark as I would expect them to be for a plasma. I watch in a completely dark room, so maybe that is my "problem."

Thanks for all of your help around here!
anthrojohn is offline  
post #1452 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 01:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryInRI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in RI
Posts: 5,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Thanks for the confirmation, Larry!

With the plasma(s) that you own, do you find your black level readings to be BELOW .012ftL? I ask mainly because I find that at .012ftL, the blacks are not as dark as I would expect them to be for a plasma. I watch in a completely dark room, so maybe that is my "problem."

Thanks for all of your help around here!


I would be ecstatic with a reading of 0.012 ftL. Both my X1s are at about 0.024 now.

Larry
LarryInRI is offline  
post #1453 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 01:48 PM
Member
 
anthrojohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I would be ecstatic with a reading of 0.012 ftL. Both my X1s are at about 0.024 now.

Larry

Sorry if my never-ending hypothetical questions bug you , but...

if you were in my situation, and you wanted to do everything you could to keep your TVs at .012ftL, would you do the EEPROM zeroing of the "Power On Hours" every 100 hours or so to try to put off any possible brightness inflation?

I am really tempted to zero it out, as I have just over 100 hours on my set and I would NOT like my blacks to be any lighter than they are now.

Thanks for humoring me!
anthrojohn is offline  
post #1454 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 02:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryInRI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in RI
Posts: 5,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 146
John,

There hasn't been any proof that changing the EEPROM time values will help. Until Turrican4D et al get some definitive results, who knows what possible long term effects could result? So no, I would not play around except maybe to confirm that which is being discovered by experimentation.

Larry
LarryInRI is offline  
post #1455 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 04:37 PM
Member
 
exbagboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here is the CNET profile for the guy that reviewed the G10 back in April.
http://www.cnet.com/profile/katzmaier/

There is an email button below his name and you can send a message. I plan to do that when I get home from work. IF we all message him he might go back and check out this same panel now, and maybe even update the review, which they do occasionally!

He says that the G10 has better black levels than their month old S1 panel, and that it got closets to the Kuro in black levels and even beat the XBR8 in some scenes,
I wish I had this TV right now.
exbagboy is offline  
post #1456 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 04:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
bucknuts07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 501
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Some photos of the image retention I got for pulling up the photo viewer to check a black slide, this is when i exited out pf photo viewer after 10 minutes. The last one is my screen in the dark last night. Hopefully I can convince the Panny tech on Friday when he come out to look at my black levels and increased retention issues that there is a problem
LL
LL
LL

Xbox Live- bucknuts07

 

PSN-bucknuts07

bucknuts07 is offline  
post #1457 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 05:26 PM
Newbie
 
fleezy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

Here is the CNET profile for the guy that reviewed the G10 back in April.
http://www.cnet.com/profile/katzmaier/

There is an email button below his name and you can send a message. I plan to do that when I get home from work. IF we all message him he might go back and check out this same panel now, and maybe even update the review, which they do occasionally!

He says that the G10 has better black levels than their month old S1 panel, and that it got closets to the Kuro in black levels and even beat the XBR8 in some scenes,
I wish I had this TV right now.

I sent our four e-mails today, the 1st to David Katzmaier at CNET. I also e-mailed scott.wilkinson@sorc.com.com at hometheatermag.com as their
Buyer's Guide recommends the TC-P42G10 as the best midrange screen.

I then e-mailed Panasonic and THX about the issues as well.

Finally, I called Panasonic again and they've asked me to send pictures of my set while on but with no signal so "the engineers can evaluate my situation." They also stated that a new THX-related firmware update will be available this month.

I'll post any responses I may receive regarding my e-mails and any input from the Panasonic engineers.
fleezy is offline  
post #1458 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 05:50 PM
Senior Member
 
mmoh00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 394
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleezy View Post

I sent our four e-mails today, the 1st to David Katzmaier at CNET. I also e-mailed scott.wilkinson@sorc.com.com at hometheatermag.com as their
Buyer's Guide recommends the TC-P42G10 as the best midrange screen.

I then e-mailed Panasonic and THX about the issues as well.

Finally, I called Panasonic again and they've asked me to send pictures of my set while on but with no signal so "the engineers can evaluate my situation." They also stated that a new THX-related firmware update will be available this month.

I'll post any responses I may receive regarding my e-mails and any input from the Panasonic engineers.

Nice work. I also sent an email to D Katzmaier earlier.
mmoh00 is offline  
post #1459 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 07:11 PM
Newbie
 
skipdog77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just went into my local BestBuy to buy a G10/15. They had none. I'm wondering if Panasonic inventory is running low or if BB is aware of the issues and just not re-ordering from Panasonic. I did notice Sears has them in stock.

Skip
skipdog77 is offline  
post #1460 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 07:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Leetthal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Skip just wait for the new G series.
Leetthal is offline  
post #1461 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 07:52 PM
Newbie
 
fleezy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
By the way, here's a couple pics of my screen.

Custom was shot with at 34mm with an exposure of 13 sec. at f/10 and ISO 800

The other photo was shot at 30mm with an exposure of 25 sec. at f/7.1 and ISO 400

Both shots were taken with my Canon EOS Rebel XSi and were properly exposed.
LL
LL
fleezy is offline  
post #1462 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 08:02 PM
Senior Member
 
mmoh00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 394
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleezy View Post

By the way, here's a couple pics of my screen.

Custom was shot with at 34mm with an exposure of 13 sec. at f/10 and ISO 800

The other photo was shot at 30mm with an exposure of 25 sec. at f/7.1 and ISO 400

Both shots were taken with my Canon EOS Rebel XSi and were properly exposed.

Oh my, does it really look like that? If so, you have a very strong case for refund or exchange.
mmoh00 is offline  
post #1463 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 08:04 PM
Senior Member
 
silverfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleezy View Post

By the way, here's a couple pics of my screen.

Custom was shot with at 34mm with an exposure of 13 sec. at f/10 and ISO 800

The other photo was shot at 30mm with an exposure of 25 sec. at f/7.1 and ISO 400

Both shots were taken with my Canon EOS Rebel XSi and were properly exposed.

Holy crap that's awful.
silverfx is offline  
post #1464 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 08:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
Meteor|WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 648
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Oh my, does it really look like that?

Yes, I'm wondering the same. Do those pics closely represent how it looks to you in person?

TC-P46G10 build date May 2009
Settings and Calibration Reports
Meteor|WAR is offline  
post #1465 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Newbie
 
fleezy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The pics very accurately represent what it looks like to my eyes. I sent them 5 different pics at different exposure settings to make sure they knew I didn't intentionally overexpose them. I even used the meter on my old Canon A-1 SLR to see what it came up with for exposure settings and it was very close. The pics really bring out the IR due to the long exposure.

I have the TV in a downstairs living room with no direct outside lighting. At night, the room is extremely dark, which is when I took the photos. I can't read by the light of the TV very well but I was able to see the controls on my camera with just the light from the TV.

One other thing to note is the IR. When I took the photos, the TV hadn't been on in the previous 21 hours. The IR isn't that bad to the naked eye unless you get close to the screen but it is important to realize the menu items were only on long enough to switch between picture modes. I sent Panasonic a photo of the screen in each of the modes.

What best summed it up was when my wife pointed out that the TV glows when we're waiting for a Blu-Ray to load up. :-(

And this is after I read these forums as well as several websites and countless reviews to find out what was going to be the right set for our new "man cave."
fleezy is offline  
post #1466 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 08:48 PM
Newbie
 
chrischross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I guess I get to be the guinea pig here whether or not resetting the EEPROM clock back to 0 will work. I just checked my return policy, and since I stupidly recycled a portion of the manufacturer's box, this set is unreturnable.

The good news is I have approx. 72 hours on my TC-P54G10. I've been monitoring this thread extensively for the past week, and frankly, wish I would have seen this prior to purchase. All the usual review sites had nothing but good things to say about the Panasonic lineup, but as always, caveat emptor.

I did contact Panasonic customer support and told them about the issue and politely asked for a firmware update. I'm basically scared to even turn the thing on at this point until I get a better handle on maneuvering around the service menu.

I just want to watch television and not have to go digging through EEPROM instructions, this isn't my idea of fun.
chrischross is offline  
post #1467 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 08:52 PM
Gov
AVS Special Member
 
Gov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NW Burbs of Chgo, IL
Posts: 3,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleezy View Post

The pics very accurately represent what it looks like to my eyes. I sent them 5 different pics at different exposure settings to make sure they knew I didn't intentionally overexpose them. I even used the meter on my old Canon A-1 SLR to see what it came up with for exposure settings and it was very close. The pics really bring out the IR due to the long exposure.

I have the TV in a downstairs living room with no direct outside lighting. At night, the room is extremely dark, which is when I took the photos. I can't read by the light of the TV very well but I was able to see the controls on my camera with just the light from the TV.

One other thing to note is the IR. When I took the photos, the TV hadn't been on in the previous 21 hours. The IR isn't that bad to the naked eye unless you get close to the screen but it is important to realize the menu items were only on long enough to switch between picture modes. I sent Panasonic a photo of the screen in each of the modes.

What best summed it up was when my wife pointed out that the TV glows when we're waiting for a Blu-Ray to load up. :-(

And this is after I read these forums as well as several websites and countless reviews to find out what was going to be the right set for our new "man cave."

Those pictures are awfully painful to look at, I am sure they will replace/repair the set.
BTW, how many hours do you have on it?

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
Gov is offline  
post #1468 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 09:10 PM
Newbie
 
fleezy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have 552 hours on the set according to the SM and that's including 80 hours of break-in slides.

Just for the heck of it, I took these photos just a few minutes ago. The set's been off for over 2 hours and I didn't acess the menu. I also reduced the exposure time even more by using a larger aperture and faster shutter speed. They're slightly underexposed as a result but I thought it would really show the IR.

IMG-5001 27 mm, 4 sec at f/4 ISO 800 -2/3 stop exposure
IMG-5002 27 mm, 2 sec at f/4 ISO 800 -1 stop exposure
IMG-5003 27 mm, 5 sec at f/4 ISO 800 -1/3 stop exposure

Again, the IR isn't quite as bad as the photos. The "Shut-off 1 min" in the lower right hand corner can be seen and read with the naked eye from 8-10 feet away but in order to clearly read the rest, you have to be about 5-6 feet away. Of course, the closer the better! Or in this case, worse!
LL
LL
LL
fleezy is offline  
post #1469 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 09:31 PM
Member
 
djbrettb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm curious, everyone with this horrible IR, do you ever use the scrolling bar? My set has no visible IR whatsoever, because I regularly use the scrolling bar.
djbrettb is offline  
post #1470 of 11230 Old 01-06-2010, 09:45 PM
Newbie
 
fleezy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
When we use the TV, I run the bar almost every night at least once.

My son got Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 2 for Christmas so I've been very paranoid about IR and make sure he runs it every couple of hours. I recently read on the forums that the scrolling bar needs to run for more than 15 minutes at a time to be effective so I've been running it consecutive times. But like I said earlier, the pics I took were after very little use and the majority of the IR I'm experiencing is from images generated by the Menu and the Auto Shut off feature, which only came on for a minute or two when I was taking the pics.
fleezy is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off