Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 11410 Old 09-20-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

It just resets all the user menu values. It didn't do anything for the black levels in my experience, they still measured the same. The default contrast settings for Custom and Game are probably pretty high (100?). This could create the illusion of improved MLL's if you were accustomed to a lower setting--especially if your test is letterbox bars. I don't know that's what's going on, the reset could very well be doing something for some people.

It appears that the magical reset does nothing more than reset all the individual "reset to default" in the user menu. No surprise.

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post #122 of 11410 Old 09-20-2009, 05:57 PM
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I did reset my S1 and I still seem to have issues with the black level, to me the reset did not make a difference.
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post #123 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 01:26 AM
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I think most of u are just seeing things. The black bars on this set will never be as dark as the bezel. Unless you have the proper equipment to justify these claims. Don't worry about it. I have the G10 and it has about four hundred hours on it. I have D-nice's break-in setting running the slides for a 150 hours. I also have an Pioneer 5020 and a samsung PN50a650. The black levels are still the same. Much darker than the samung and not as quite as dark as the Pioneer. So people please enjoy your set and please don't scare others from a very nice plasma. Second only to pioneer.
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post #124 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by moemoney View Post

I think most of u are just seeing things. The black bars on this set will never be as dark as the bezel. Unless you have the proper equipment to justify these claims. Don't worry about it. I have the G10 and it has about four hundred hours on it. I have D-nice's break-in setting running the slides for a 150 hours. I also have an Pioneer 5020 and a samsung PN50a650. The black levels are still the same. Much darker than the samung and not as quite as dark as the Pioneer. So people please enjoy your set and please don't scare others from a very nice plasma. Second only to pioneer.

+1

I think people just realized that their blacks aren't perfect blacks. When you get a new panel you don't see its shortcomings immediately.

And even the Pioneer can't display bezel blacks, not even close. Most of the times they look 100% black to your eyes but when you check a very dark & low contrasted scene, or a full black screen, you lose the "inky blacks" as soon as your eyes adapt to the content.
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post #125 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moemoney View Post

I think most of u are just seeing things. The black bars on this set will never be as dark as the bezel. Unless you have the proper equipment to justify these claims. Don't worry about it. I have the G10 and it has about four hundred hours on it. I have D-nice's break-in setting running the slides for a 150 hours. I also have an Pioneer 5020 and a samsung PN50a650. The black levels are still the same. Much darker than the samung and not as quite as dark as the Pioneer. So people please enjoy your set and please don't scare others from a very nice plasma. Second only to pioneer.

AFAIK, Orta does have the proper equipment (a light meter) to justify his claim because he said his black level rose from 0.008fL to 0.018fL. TomHuffMan experienced almost the exact same rise on his Panasonic 85U. Considering Mr. Huffman and Orta both experienced the same rise in black level and everyone else thinks their black levels aren't as good as they were, the problem appears to be very real.

My guess is that after this rise in black level, it won't increase anymore. TomHuffMan checked his black levels after the ~2000hr mark and Orta checked his after the ~400hr mark (IIRC) and both of their sets were just just over 2x of what they were. So unless there's another threshold past the 2000hr mark (which I highly doubt) then I think it will remain at this level until the end of the life of the panel. Although you never know... doubling up the black level after x amount of hours is pretty odd so maybe there is another threshold.
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post #126 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 07:09 AM
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My blacks are still as good as they were before the increase. I am trying to rush the set back to the increase to get the Panasonic tech back out here and make it known that this is a purposeful increase and that we don't like it. (I'll give him a full printout of this thread next time I get him to look at my set. I will get this problem sorted out if possible because I like my blacks the way they are and don't like the way they look at the increased levels.)

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post #127 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

My blacks are still as good as they were before the increase. I am trying to rush the set back to the increase to get the Panasonic tech back out here and make it known that this is a purposeful increase and that we don't like it. (I'll give him a full printout of this thread next time I get him to look at my set. I will get this problem sorted out if possible because I like my blacks the way they are and don't like the way they look at the increased levels.)

What logical reason would Panasonic have to make their product become inferior afer some relatively short period of time? If there is a reason, why would some believe that there is such a simple way to defeat it?

It appears to me that the magical 300 hour jump is nothing more than a unsubstantiated non-technically based opinion. Notice I did not say that the base black levels do not increase over time. I am talking about the perception that Panasonic has a deliberate plan to cause it do so that seems... well, quite silly.

Just wanted these thoughts in your printout.

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post #128 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

What logical reason would Panasonic have to make their product become inferior afer some relatively short period of time? If there is a reason, why would some believe that there is such a simple way to defeat it?

It appears to me that the magical 300 hour jump is nothing more than a unsubstantiated non-technically based opinion. Notice I did not say that the base black levels do not increase over time. I am talking about the perception that Panasonic has a deliberate plan to cause it do so that seems... well, quite silly.

Just wanted these thoughts in your printout.

Larry

My blacks jumped up noticeably and drastically all at once, there was no incremental change. After the tech replaced the A board and the set went through a factory reset due to that, my blacks are now just as dark as they were when I first turned the set on, again it is a very noticeable difference. There is something in the software to increase the black levels after a certain trigger point, and an hour marker seems to be the most likely cause. (though I suspect there is a second trigger as well)

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post #129 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

My blacks jumped up noticeably and drastically all at once, there was no incremental change. After the tech replaced the A board and the set went through a factory reset due to that, my blacks are now just as dark as they were when I first turned the set on, again it is a very noticeable difference. There is something in the software to increase the black levels after a certain trigger point, and an hour marker seems to be the most likely cause. (though I suspect there is a second trigger as well)

Could it be that you had a bad board to start with? My point still stands -- Why would Panasonic put a time bomb in their product?

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post #130 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Could it be that you had a bad board to start with? My point still stands -- Why would Panasonic put a time bomb in their product?

Larry

It was the board that houses all the inputs (HDMI/Component ext) it was to fix a bad s-video input on my set. And as for why Panasonic would do that, I have no clue, they have been doing it for years it seems, it is just more noticeable now that the blacks are getting darker and that they have ditched the Real Black Drive that adjusts the black levels on the fly. (this could still be buried in the system code for all we know, as it could cause an increase like this)

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post #131 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Could it be that you had a bad board to start with? My point still stands -- Why would Panasonic put a time bomb in their product?

Larry


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post #132 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 02:59 PM
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Einhorn is Finkle. Finkle is Einhorn!

I understand your reference. I don't understand its relevance.

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post #133 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

It was the board that houses all the inputs (HDMI/Component ext) it was to fix a bad s-video input on my set. And as for why Panasonic would do that, I have no clue, they have been doing it for years it seems, it is just more noticeable now that the blacks are getting darker and that they have ditched the Real Black Drive that adjusts the black levels on the fly. (this could still be buried in the system code for all we know, as it could cause an increase like this)

Have you considered it was actually a fault of the board itself? There is a very distinct possibility that an some aspect of the video control circuitry was haywire (in fact the bad s-video input shows the board was faulty) and this could easily contribute to elevated black levels. I'm not intimately familiar with the DSP design on the Panasonic plasmas but it is quite likely that the root of your issue was all on that board. Until (and only until) your black levels actually rise again you have no evidence that the black levels were a result of a software trigger.

It's equally believable the video board had voltage bleed on a control output that sets the reference signal level for the set's final stages of video processing and that's what was causing your problem. From an EE: this ain't over till the fat lady sings, and while I condone collecting evidence and stay on top of this issue (read my post earlier) your case barely qualifies for evidence that something is going on.

I wouldn't shout the sky is falling yet. There needs to be quite a bit more evidence and a bit more time, so relax.
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post #134 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

It was the board that houses all the inputs (HDMI/Component ext) it was to fix a bad s-video input on my set. And as for why Panasonic would do that, I have no clue, they have been doing it for years it seems, it is just more noticeable now that the blacks are getting darker and that they have ditched the Real Black Drive that adjusts the black levels on the fly. (this could still be buried in the system code for all we know, as it could cause an increase like this)

I'll ask yet again -- why? For what reason?

nweibley and I are looking at this from the same perspective.

Larry
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post #135 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 04:28 PM
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Will a Panasonic rep please step up and confirm/deny if this is a systematic or episodic issue & what you're doing about it?
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post #136 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 04:50 PM
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Will a Panasonic rep please step up and confirm/deny if this is a systematic or episodic issue & what you're doing about it?

Is Panasonic now on trial?

Confirm/deny what?

That black levels change with time? That Panasonic has planted a bug in the firmware to go off after 300 hours? That there is a conspiracy against the consumers? That it is caused by little green men from an alternative universe?

Confirm or deny what? They are a for-profit company. Their purpose is to maximize profit not plant time bombs in their product and get cusomers upset.

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post #137 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 07:56 PM
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I have better things to do than put Panny on trial , but they should jump in and let people know what's up. There are at least some people on here who are avoiding this TV now. Others, like me, simply want to know what's crackulating.
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post #138 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 08:51 PM
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Internet speculation is what's "crackulating" and people that hold off from buying a TV because of a thread they read on the internet are not worth worrying about anyways because they are obviously incapable of making their own decision.


Like I said this issue needs to be approached systematically, analytically, and objectively. Right now there is insufficient evidence and data to draw a conclusion other than a single isolated case that was reported in conjunction with a separate and potentially related problem. That is it.

Like I said, keep a cool head and plug forward and this can be dealt with. If it turns into he-said she-said speculation then it is nothing more than a worthless and detrimental rumor.
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post #139 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I wonder if this guy had stumbled upon this thread before posting this:

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Originally Posted by plasmafan09 View Post

Hello all,I haven't posted here in a while due to receiving a new panel.I had a "A Board" and "Panel" replaced,and I wanted to wait after my new set was broken in before posting my impressions.I have one MAJOR issue with my 42g10,and this question has NEVER been answered by pro's or amatuer's.My first set was purchased in late April,but during sometime in July I noticed my "blacks"(which were once dark gray)are now light gray.I'm talking "LCD gray",just with a perfect uniform screen due to being a plasma.What I've noticed is that I had around 700+ hours on my first set,but I entered the service menu at about 400ish to punch in Orta's offsets.When I turned back on the tv is when I noticed the blacks(or dark greys)are now light gray.This is NOT due to Orta's offsets though,is it the tv's fault or the users?Now when I received my second set back in late September,I waited for nightfall to come so I could see if my "dark grays" were back.Sure enough they were,I guess because my panel was replaced(due to dead pixels).My second set now has 300+ hours on it and guess what happened?My dark grays are now light gray.Here is the big question:Is there a "right" way to exit the Service Menu?I wonder if the rise in blacks is due to exiting the wrong way,or if after x amount of hours the black levels change?Because when the tech hooked up my new set he immediately entered the SM to check for dead pixels on the color slides(found in the red screen in SM)then he exited.But the set still retained its black level.I bought this set mainly for its deep blacks but now it just looks like a uniform lcd,can the pros chime in for some help please?

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post #140 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:26 PM
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I've had two g10's now,and the black level increased on both at around 270-400hrs.Telling the difference between dark gray and light gray does not require meters.
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post #141 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:32 PM
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plasmafan09, were the service menu changes applied to both TVs or just the first? And how were you exiting the service menu?
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post #142 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I wonder if this guy had stumbled upon this thread before posting this:

I've read through this thread since the day you posted it.I had it bookmarked but this thread was starting to get no reply's after page 3.Which is why I posted my question in more active threads.I didn't know that this thread was up to page 5 now.
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post #143 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:33 PM
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plasmafan09, were the service menu changes applied to both TVs or just the first? And how were you exiting the service menu?

Both,I exit by holding power on the tv for 3 seconds.
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post #144 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:34 PM
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Don't take this the wrong way then, but that means you are not a valid control. If the second G10 had the same issue without SM changes we'd have more evidence, however your experience suggests that perhaps SM changes have something to do with the increase in absolute black light output.
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post #145 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by nweibley View Post

Don't take this the wrong way then, but that means you are not a valid control. If the second G10 had the same issue without SM changes we'd have more evidence, however your experience suggests that perhaps SM changes have something to do with the increase in absolute black light output.

Well this is exactly why I posted a question asking,is there a "right" way of exiting the SM?Does anybody know?
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post #146 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:42 PM
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Also.its NOT the SM changes that cause the blacks to rise.I since then put back the factory defaults for white balance.Still have much lighter blacks.
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post #147 of 11410 Old 09-21-2009, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmafan09 View Post

Also.its NOT the SM changes that cause the blacks to rise.I since then put back the factory defaults for white balance.Still have much lighter blacks.

Did you actually enter the service manual? Does Orta know the implications of the registers he was changing? Further analysis needs to be done... it honestly sounds to me like the whole screen is holding residual charge like what people see when they describe zero-input (full black) image ghosts.

I don't have a reference for the SM registers handy but I suspect I can get access to them. More investigating needs to be done.

The proper way to exit the service manual is to hit the power button on the TV. The panasonic service docs describe this explicitly.
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post #148 of 11410 Old 09-22-2009, 12:03 AM
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I just want to report that my G10's blacks are now gray again, I have 300hrs on the set at the moment. I don't believe that all of the people who are noticing this change have a defective plasma, there is definitely something else going on IMO.
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post #149 of 11410 Old 09-22-2009, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nweibley View Post

Did you actually enter the service manual? Does Orta know the implications of the registers he was changing? Further analysis needs to be done... it honestly sounds to me like the whole screen is holding residual charge like what people see when they describe zero-input (full black) image ghosts.

I don't have a reference for the SM registers handy but I suspect I can get access to them. More investigating needs to be done.

The proper way to exit the service manual is to hit the power button on the TV. The panasonic service docs describe this explicitly.

Residual charge can't be the answer.Why would the set retain its black level for the first 250-400hrs then brighten after?A blank input screen or an all black slide show no signs of residual charge or ghost images.
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post #150 of 11410 Old 09-22-2009, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmafan09 View Post

Residual charge can't be the answer.Why would the set retain its black level for the first 250-400hrs then brighten after?A blank input screen or an all black slide show no signs of residual charge or ghost images.

Because the driving circuitry is fatigued and the charge is accumulating/dissipating abnormally? Or because a circuit designed to mitigate residual charge on the panel is malfunctioning?

I'm not saying it's not possible that this is something random and annoying to pin down as an unchecked carry bit that pollutes a register or a programming mistake in the panel drive firmware.

We just need more data to come to any sort of conclusion, and starting a witch hunt is a bad way to get reliable data. In the meantime I'd log your complaints with Panasonic... make sure they are aware that you are having a problem.
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