Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by plasmafan09 View Post

Also.its NOT the SM changes that cause the blacks to rise.I since then put back the factory defaults for white balance.Still have much lighter blacks.

I tend to believe that service menu access has something to do with this, I never accessed the service menu, I let the tech do it, and on both of the G10s that I had, there was a black level jump after the tech was there. On his second visit (and my second G10) I mentioned the black level jump and how I believed that it was a combo of service menu access and hour count, he didn't have a clue what would cause that and proceeded to check for the DSE like streaks in the AR filter of my set. The next day I called him back because that night that he was there, I noticed the massive jump in black levels. He came back out and decided to replace the A board just to see what it would do (he was hoping to fix the streaks with it, which he admitted was a very slim hope, my loose s-video slot was just the excuse) The full factory reset is what fixed it, and I should be back into the 300 hour range in a few weeks to see if it goes back up again.


This is a bug in the firmware, and Panasonic needs to fix it. I would get another G10, but I am 100% sure that I will have this problem a third time.

Everyone having this issue needs to bug the heck out of Panasonic until they fix it.

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post #152 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I tend to believe that service menu access has something to do with this, I never accessed the service menu, I let the tech do it, and on both of the G10s that I had, there was a black level jump after the tech was there. On his second visit (and my second G10) I mentioned the black level jump and how I believed that it was a combo of service menu access and hour count, he didn't have a clue what would cause that and proceeded to check for the DSE like streaks in the AR filter of my set. The next day I called him back because that night that he was there, I noticed the massive jump in black levels. He came back out and decided to replace the A board just to see what it would do (he was hoping to fix the streaks with it, which he admitted was a very slim hope, my loose s-video slot was just the excuse) The full factory reset is what fixed it, and I should be back into the 300 hour range in a few weeks to see if it goes back up again.


This is a bug in the firmware, and Panasonic needs to fix it. I would get another G10, but I am 100% sure that I will have this problem a third time.

Everyone having this issue needs to bug the heck out of Panasonic until they fix it.

What exactly do you mean by a full factory reset?On a side note,I don't know if you remember that I was having a "streak" issue too.I also had the A board replaced and the Panel.The streaks are basically gone.Maybe a new panel will solve your streak issue?Also,please try not to enter the SM for the sake of research,though I'm sure you were planning not to already.I hope the blacks don't rise!
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post #153 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by plasmafan09 View Post

What exactly do you mean by a full factory reset?On a side note,I don't know if you remember that I was having a "streak" issue too.I also had the A board replaced and the Panel.The streaks are basically gone.Maybe a new panel will solve your streak issue?Also,please try not to enter the SM for the sake of research,though I'm sure you were planning not to already.I hope the blacks don't rise!

I am awaiting the results of this.
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post #154 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by plasmafan09 View Post

What exactly do you mean by a full factory reset?On a side note,I don't know if you remember that I was having a "streak" issue too.I also had the A board replaced and the Panel.The streaks are basically gone.Maybe a new panel will solve your streak issue?Also,please try not to enter the SM for the sake of research,though I'm sure you were planning not to already.I hope the blacks don't rise!

I will be replacing the set eventually once prices on the larger sets drop enough, so I'm not going to do anymore swapping of G10 units. (the 65s1 is getting dirt cheap already, about $650 more than my 54g10 right now.) The tech guy won't do a panel swap due to how hard it is to get one to a home intact. (he also said to NEVER buy the Z series because they are so thin and will shatter if you pick them up the wrong way, as it has happened to a few friends of his in the repair biz.)

I won't be going into the service menu again, but I am thinking that the damage might already be done in that area but we will see once I get back to the 300 hour mark. (can't hurt to hope)


The full factory reset was something that happened when the board was replaced, everything was reset, including the hour count, to what it was when I first booted the set. I don't know if there is an option in the SM to do this yourself or not.

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post #155 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 12:43 PM
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orta, do you think raising the blue and red drives by 18 put a stress on the panel after a period of time ? I know a few people in this thread that were having the problem were using the same offsets. I have had my set for a while now and havent noticed a difference in my levels . I guess I'm trying to figure out if i should revert to default offsets before my black levels change.

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post #156 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

orta, do you think raising the blue and red drives by 18 put a stress on the panel after a period of time ? I know a few people in this thread that were having the problem were using the same offsets. I have had my set for a while now and havent noticed a difference in my levels . I guess I'm trying to figure out if i should revert to default offsets before my black levels change.

I never used Orta's offsets so I doubt that it is the problem.

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post #157 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by nweibley View Post

Did you actually enter the service manual? Does Orta know the implications of the registers he was changing? Further analysis needs to be done... it honestly sounds to me like the whole screen is holding residual charge like what people see when they describe zero-input (full black) image ghosts.

I don't have a reference for the SM registers handy but I suspect I can get access to them. More investigating needs to be done.

The proper way to exit the service manual is to hit the power button on the TV. The panasonic service docs describe this explicitly.

Nweibley,

The service manual says the correct way to exit the service mode is:

"5.1.3. How to exit -- Switch off the power with the [POWER] button on the main unit or the [POWER] button on the remote control."

Attached are the only eeprom addresses supplied in the manual for the 42/50X1.

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post #158 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

orta, do you think raising the blue and red drives by 18 put a stress on the panel after a period of time ? I know a few people in this thread that were having the problem were using the same offsets. I have had my set for a while now and havent noticed a difference in my levels . I guess I'm trying to figure out if i should revert to default offsets before my black levels change.

Engineering wise, I have no idea, but logically, I very seriously doubt it. Some people's factory default values have been higher than what mine are with the +18's added, and I'm sure not everyone has used them--like Pend. I really have no idea what could be going on outside of the discussion in this thread, it could be a bad batch of components that got out, intentional (or faulty) software/firmware, I have no clue. I guess I just had the misfortune of being the first to discover it on the Neo's.
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post #159 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Engineering wise, I have no idea, but logically, I very seriously doubt it. Some people's factory default values have been higher than what mine are with the +18's added, and I'm sure not everyone has used them--like Pend. I really have no idea what could be going on outside of the discussion in this thread, it could be a bad batch of components that got out, intentional (or faulty) software/firmware, I have no clue. I guess I just had the misfortune of being the first to discover it on the Neo's.

WRT raising the drive values, the only comment in the service manual is:

"When that, the maximum value of R/G/B DRV should be FC, and either R/G/B DRV should be FC."

That's Panasonic's grammar not mine. It is a direct quote.

So increasing a drive value by +18 is okay as long as it does not exceed FCh.

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post #160 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 06:40 PM
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Has anyone NOT entered the service menu and still got the black level increase?
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post #161 of 11211 Old 09-22-2009, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by stindawg View Post

has anyone not entered the service menu and still got the black level increase?

+1

great question !!!
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post #162 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 12:19 AM
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I have started to notice the same problem. I have NEVER been in the service menu. I also have noticed that if I switch back and forth from custom to vivid on the picture settings, the black bars on top and bottom are very black for a split second, then revert to the greyish black that custom now has. I don't know what the heck is going on, but it is very noticeable to me now and it is unacceptable. They had better release a firmware upgrade or something that elimintes this. If this has anything to do with the panel aging thing, they are definitely overcompensating. How stupid do they think consumers are? If the panel(over the course of many years of aging, not the few hundred hours mine has) starts to darken, do they not think we are smart enough to raise the brightness/contrast on our own? lame. Thanks panasonic, now I have a reflective lcd that adds $20 to my power bill
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post #163 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 09:18 AM
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hey everyone

i was wonder what was the conclusion to this was?, is it entering the service menu that causes it or is it a timed thing?, im going to try and contact panasonic and enquire as someone i know who has a g10 is experiencing this (just after i bought my own) and im not sure what the cause is so if anyone could has a answer i would be thankful

thanks for any replies
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hey everyone

i was wonder what was the conclusion to this was?, is it entering the service menu that causes it or is it a timed thing?, im going to try and contact panasonic and enquire as someone i know who has a g10 is experiencing this (just after i bought my own) and im not sure what the cause is so if anyone could has a answer i would be thankful

thanks for any replies

The post above yours pretty much debunks the theory that entering the service menu is the cause for the elevated black levels. I am going to say that it is programmed to happen once you hit a certain hour mark on the internal meter. I don't know why Panasonic would do this, nor do i really care, i just want a fix.
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post #165 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 11:06 AM
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It would be good to have more quantitative data. Orta has actual measured before and after data. Does anyone else have that? I worry about the anti-placebo effect: once someone mentions an issue, people who would have never "seen" it start to see the problem. If everyone who had measured data soon after getting their TV measured again and had the same issue, that would be very powerful data with which to confront Panasonic.
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post #166 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 12:11 PM
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Is this happening on other Panasonic sets as well? X, S, V10, ect... or is it just the G10s?
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post #167 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

It would be good to have more quantitative data. Orta has actual measured before and after data. Does anyone else have that? I worry about the anti-placebo effect: once someone mentions an issue, people who would have never "seen" it start to see the problem. If everyone who had measured data soon after getting their TV measured again and had the same issue, that would be very powerful data with which to confront Panasonic.

best advice so far. Need more real data to get Panasonic to look at it seriously.

too early to draw any real conclusions. Especially when almost all the "confirmation" is based on what people are "seeing".
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post #168 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 04:40 PM
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I can tell you that I am very conservative when it comes to jumping to conclusions about something based on heresay. In fact, I would almost say that i go out of my way to convince myself that I am not seeing something different in situations like these. With that said, I can tell you without a doubt that there is something going on here. If anyone is unsure whether they are seeing this black level rise, go to the picture menu and toggle from the setting you have it on to the other settings (vivid, standard etc.) and look at the black bars. I can see them magically go from dark black to greyish after a second or so.
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post #169 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 04:44 PM
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I can tell you that I am very conservative when it comes to jumping to conclusions about something based on heresay. In fact, I would almost say that i go out of my way to convince myself that I am not seeing something different in situations like these. With that said, I can tell you without a doubt that there is something going on here. If anyone is unsure whether they are seeing this black level rise, go to the picture menu and toggle from the setting you have it on to the other settings (vivid, standard etc.) and look at the black bars. I can see them magically go from dark black to greyish after a second or so.

What you describe is nothing more than "floating black level" and it has nothing to do with the phenomenon being discussed here.

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post #170 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 07:20 PM
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What you describe is nothing more than "floating black level" and it has nothing to do with the phenomenon being discussed here.

Larry


What is "floating black level"?
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post #171 of 11211 Old 09-24-2009, 08:48 PM
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What is "floating black level"?

Floating black is when the picture's black level is allowed to change depending on the average light level being shown on the screen. When the black is allowed to float like this and a bright object appears in the picture, the whole scene becomes lighter including the darker portions. Then when the bright object goes away the whole screen becomes darker again. It is a method that is used these days to give the illusion of darker blacks with more detail in the near blacks. Unfortunately the Panasonics are notorious for using this.

You can see the blacks float by freezing a scene or using a grayscale test pattern and switching between Picture modes, Custom, Cinema, Standard, etc. You will witness the 'pumping' action in the darker areas. (This undesirable effect is the cause of many wrong calibrations.)

I don't have a G10 but in the models without THX the Standard mode is the greatest offender while the Cinema mode the least.

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post #172 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 04:51 AM
 
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Has there been one report of a V10 model having this issue?
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post #173 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 05:16 AM
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hi, has anyone who has not been in the service menu had the issue occur?, also has anyone not had the problem?, I don't know if this is supposed to happen on every set or just some as my friends father has noticed it on his set (hes 84 ) and panasonic said they would be willing to investigate this when we rang not that im sure much would come of it but they said they needed more information on how this is happening so anything is appreciated if anyone knows what is causing this
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post #174 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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hi, has anyone who has not been in the service menu had the issue occur?, also has anyone not had the problem?, I don't know if this is supposed to happen on every set or just some as my friends father has noticed it on his set (hes 84 ) and panasonic said they would be willing to investigate this when we rang not that im sure much would come of it but they said they needed more information on how this is happening so anything is appreciated if anyone knows what is causing this

I have talked to Panasonic about it as well, they had to escalate it to tier 2, who would escalate it to engineering. He took down some pretty specific notes, that I have a light meter, and have measured an increase from ~.008fL to .018. That it just happened out of nowhere, possibly at a specific hour count. That it was easily noticeable by eye. They said they would call back after the investigation, though there is next to zero chance I will be home when (or even if) they do, so that's probably the last you'll hear of it unfortunately.

I would recommend everyone that thinks they may be affected call and start a trouble ticket for the problem. They should just escalate the issue to higher departments, which is what we need.
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post #175 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 10:00 AM
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Does anyone here realize that objects on the screen that are bright close down your eye's pupil so as to make black bars appear darker. So some of you ARE seeing things.

Use of a 6500k backlight does wonders for percieved black levels and eyestrain.

The blacks may come up on a panel for one of three reasons:
1. Phosphur wear.
2. Analog electronic components drifting from their initial values with heat and age.
3. Software/firmware glitches.
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post #176 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 10:39 AM
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I don't have "floating blacks" i noticed the change from black to a gray within a day, I am pretty sure there is something else going on here. I don't need a meter to notice that the black levels on my TV are gray and not black, It looks like an LCD.
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post #177 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 10:58 AM
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I'd like to know if all of you that have had your black levels get lighter on you, if you would still buy this tv if you had it to do over again? Are they really that bad that you are losing a lot of quality from your tv?

I'm kind of leaning between the lg lh90, sharp 700un, and this panny plasma, but if the black levels are going to get significantly lighter, I may rule this one out.

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post #178 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 11:54 AM
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I'd like to know if all of you that have had your black levels get lighter on you, if you would still buy this tv if you had it to do over again? Are they really that bad that you are losing a lot of quality from your tv?

I'm kind of leaning between the lg lh90, sharp 700un, and this panny plasma, but if the black levels are going to get significantly lighter, I may rule this one out.

I love my G10 regardless of this issue, i just wish the black levels never elevated.
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post #179 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 12:00 PM
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So why not just turn down the brightness and recalibrate?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #180 of 11211 Old 09-25-2009, 12:03 PM
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So why not just turn down the brightness and recalibrate?

I already did, the black levels are still much lighter than before but i -think- i can live with how they are currently just as long as they don't elevate anymore than they already have.
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