Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 67 - AVS Forum
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post #1981 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 10:27 AM
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agreed. I don't have a LCD TV to compare to, but I sit on my laptop while the TV is on in the background. I compared them for kicks one night, and the LCD had darker blacks.
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post #1982 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00GT View Post

Those who have the black issues all entered service mode to check hours or do color offsets? Also with the rising blacks is your overall picture brighter?

I've never entered the service menu.
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post #1983 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

The inflated black levels on my set now resemble that of an 08 Samsung like an A550.

I was thinking the same thing. I went from a 40A550 to a 50G10. Black levels for me now look IDENTICAL to what the 550 had.
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post #1984 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

It's ridiculous that Panasonic is now openly acknowledging this as an issue but refuses to do anything for the customer. "Looking into" the defect is all well and good for any new sets that may be produced, but not doing anything for those who have already been affected by this is unacceptable. When I called to give my information I cited the absurd amount of time it's taking for them to correct the THX issue. What will most likely happen is that Panasonic will drag their feet until the manufacturer's warranties are expired and then wash their hands of it.

In a most likely unrelated note, I have a technician coming back out to do some more work on the set. I'll elaborate when I know more.

Yea, that's the biggest problem. The THX issue has probably received 10x the call volume of this issue, indisputably affects every single 1st half production run unit out there, and has been going on since May or earlier. There is STILL no fix available (or rather, one that they're willing to extended to everyone--the A-board option is repeatedly denied). Despite probably being aware of it for a long time, this issue has only recently blown up. If they're even doing anything, there's probably not even 1 month of serious work with far fewer resources. I don't even want to hazard a guess of when an actual fix for this might go live.
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post #1985 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 11:02 AM
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If there is a fix for this, odds are they will simply apply it to the 2010 models before they hit and leave us out in the cold.

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post #1986 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

In this picture posted from hdguru.com, the V10 is the upper left while the G10 is the lower right TV. I have a V10 and my black is no where near that. It is brighter than the G10.
If my V10 is supposed to look like that, we got ripped off.


Are you viewing a black screen on your tv in a dark room or "lighted" room? The posted picture comparing the different models is not in a completely dark room, so naturally the black level will appear darker on both sets
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post #1987 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosekaka View Post

having read your previous posts....isnt it fair to say that you do want a new tv from them?

who said i want a new tv? even if i request a new tv since they cant fix the issue it should be granded if they would respect the customers concerns. Its like buying a lemon car..... well i bought a lemon tv. Is it fair for me to pay for a lemon? its upsetting to me and other people
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post #1988 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 11:27 AM
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For whatever it's worth, I've had a 58v10 since the first week of November. I'm not exactly certain of the hours of use, but I think it is somewhere around 400 hours or more. After reading this read, I was also concerned that my set had developed or could develop the rising black level problem.

I had my set professionally calibrated a few days ago and the black level measured .0068. Also, I am not certain of the firmware version my tv came with (I believe 1.24, but could be mistaken) but after persistent requests from Vieracast after a few days owning my set, I updated to the most recent firmware which was 1.28. My TV does NOT have the THX problem, and the light output is around 38 ftl without 96 hz engaged.

I feel awful for those affected by various problems, but for those on the fence, there are decent sets out there. I guess my set's black levels could eventually rise, time will only tell.
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post #1989 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilse View Post

I am curious - for those that have this issue - how do the busted black levels compare to the black levels of a standard lcd type display? Still better?

I have a Samsung LN-T4665f and the black levels are nearly identical. Whereas when I first bought the G10 and did a side by side comparison, friends and family were impressed.

I think/hope Panasonic will pull through and fix this issue. Right now I'm trying to create some bias lighting for my night time viewing.
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post #1990 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 12:52 PM
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To make us feel worse this is a 5020 Kuro vs. a calibrated 50S1 (presumably before black level increase). You get what you pay for as they say...

http://www.hippotechsolutions.com/?p=1741


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post #1991 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosekaka View Post

that chart should have been plotted against hours, not time.


Good point. The first reading on the curve was taken with about 200 hours on the set and it puts on about 250 hours a month. So you can calculate it out. These are approximations since I don't measure actual hours often.

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post #1992 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

To make us feel worse this is a 5020 Kuro vs. a calibrated 50S1 (presumably before black level increase). You get what you pay for as they say...

http://www.hippotechsolutions.com/?p=1741

Best and most important part of the article:

"80% of the Kuro for less than ½ the price."

Let's not forget that.

TC-P46G10 build date May 2009
Settings and Calibration Reports
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post #1993 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 01:21 PM
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I can see a slight glow in the blacks on the Kuro in the first picture.

Other than that it is 80% of the Kuro for only the first 300 hours, then it becomes 80% of a Samsung. (sarcasm fully intended with this statement)

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post #1994 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 01:50 PM
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Today I visited my friend who has 32" Sony v4000 hd ready lcd. I couldn't believe my eyes how good the picture looked. Blacks, colours and depth were lot better than in my tv. That same sony looked ordinary when I first got my g10. Great to have a plasma that has worse blacks in every lighting conditions than a low-priced lcd Before my blacks elevated I had zero IR and I really mean it. I could play games for two hours and could not find any IR when looking a black screen. IR and poor black level seem to be connected somehow.
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post #1995 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 01:57 PM
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This has been a very interesting thread. The concept of voltage changes over time and their impact on black levels is very interesting and a bit worrying.

I have read D-Nice and others' explanation of how plasmas have an internal clock set by firmware to regulate voltage as the panel ages. Is the intention of the increased voltage over time to ensure the panel maintains sufficient brightness as the panel ages? Anyone in the know have a concept of a more realistic voltage clock to make adjustments that are not premature? ie 5k hours versus 500?

And lastly is there any explanation as to why the higher black levels produce more noticeable image retention? is it the higher voltage exciting pixels that much more?
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post #1996 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 02:07 PM
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Back with the Samsung 54 series in 07, they had bad voltage problems, which caused massive IR problems, so the voltage changes can easily affect IR levels.

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post #1997 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Back with the Samsung 54 series in 07, they had bad voltage problems, which caused massive IR problems, so the voltage changes can easily affect IR levels.

is it higher voltage means more excitement on the pixel level causing faster ageing?
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post #1998 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 02:21 PM
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Quick idea: Did anyone try the side hdmi port? It isn't on the the same a board.
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post #1999 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00GT View Post

Those who have the black issues all entered service mode to check hours or do color offsets? Also with the rising blacks is your overall picture brighter?

How do you enter service mode? I'd like to check my hours.

My G15 is fine so far, although I hear it's the same as the G10 with a different housing.

Has anyone had this problem with a G15?
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post #2000 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Quick idea: Did anyone try the side hdmi port? It isn't on the the same a board.

I'm pretty sure that it was when my tech swapped the A board on my G10.

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post #2001 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Quick idea: Did anyone try the side hdmi port? It isn't on the the same a board.

All inputs go to a single electronic switch.(That's why there is an 'input' button.) In essence, they are all on the same board.

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post #2002 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

The inflated black levels on my set now resemble that of an 08 Samsung like an A550.

that's exaclty what mine is like

in fact I posted a comparison to my 50a450 a couple pages back and the samsung, while not much, actually has slightly deeper blacks
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post #2003 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

that's exaclty what mine is like

in fact I posted a comparison to my 50a450 a couple pages back and the samsung, while not much, actually has slightly deeper blacks

The blacks are honestly **** on mine now. And the IR is terrible. I can still see the Fox news ticker FROM LAST NIGHT! I now have Scott Brown's name on the bottom of my screen after turning the tv off. Anyone who says that this isn't a problem is an idiot. Panasonic needs to act on this. The fact that all of these problems are present, from THX to black levels is despicable. Every plasma model across the line has a serious error, more than you're typical "nitpicky" error. And anyone who is saying that either they don't care about this issue, or "I can live with it" is doing themselves a disservice. #1 reason why this TV was bought was for the black level to dollar ratio. Now this advantage is absent, leaving my hard earned money in the wrong spot.
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post #2004 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Is the intention of the increased voltage over time to ensure the panel maintains sufficient brightness as the panel ages? Anyone in the know have a concept of a more realistic voltage clock to make adjustments that are not premature? ie 5k hours versus 500?

Please check the following posts which describes what was in a recent Panasonic patent.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17831713
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17811833

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

And lastly is there any explanation as to why the higher black levels produce more noticeable image retention? is it the higher voltage exciting pixels that much more?

The most probable answer can be speculated to be that the voltage is raised too far above the voltage margin of the display and creates too much excess wall charge which leads to very unreliable addressing. In other words, pixels that were discharged contain way too much wall charge and therefore cannot be properly activated or deactivated and will therefore show a ghost image.

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post #2005 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

no, i dont think so. The whole reason I noticed my black levels on my panny , was because i picked up a new sony bravia w5100, and the black level looked much deeper on the lcd. It seems like when the black levels rise you lose alot of detail in your picture, and the picture settings dont do a whole lot to be able to adjust the picture, it has a slight washed out look.

that is so incredibly frustrating
man, after weeks of reading and research
i had my decision set on the perfect display for my budget
so well reviewed, such a good display for the money, the g10
and now it turns out that the vaunted g10 is no better than a cheap lcd
panasonic should be ashamed for leading potential customers on like that
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post #2006 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilse View Post

that is so incredibly frustrating
man, after weeks of reading and research
i had my decision set on the perfect display for my budget
so well reviewed, such a good display for the money, the g10
and now it turns out that the vaunted g10 is no better than a cheap lcd
panasonic should be ashamed for leading potential customers on like that

So true. And the reviews made mention that the color saturation relied on the deep black levels, because color control had to be set so low to account for green push, which is yet another problem.(S1) Panasonic just rushed these pieces of junk out the door to have a 2009 model line. I am rightfully po'ed. If this doesn't get fixed, and it is swept under the rug, I in all likelihood will never by anything Panasonic again. (Coming from a guy who has owned 2 Panasonic plasmas, and a multitude of other Panasonic electronics)
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post #2007 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

The blacks are honestly **** on mine now. And the IR is terrible. I can still see the Fox news ticker FROM LAST NIGHT! I now have Scott Brown's name on the bottom of my screen after turning the tv off. Anyone who says that this isn't a problem is an idiot. Panasonic needs to act on this. The fact that all of these problems are present, from THX to black levels is despicable. Every plasma model across the line has a serious error, more than you're typical "nitpicky" error. And anyone who is saying that either they don't care about this issue, or "I can live with it" is doing themselves a disservice. #1 reason why this TV was bought was for the black level to dollar ratio. Now this advantage is absent, leaving my hard earned money in the wrong spot.

yes I too have noticed that IR is far worse now(or at least more noticable)

but I attributed that to the raised black levels making them more visible


it's worse than on the samsung b540 plasma that I had and returned for this one. Everything that I originally thought was better about the panasonic is now worse.


I'm thinking of offloading this thing, cutting my losses and buying a new tv when they start shipping out
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post #2008 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

So true. And the reviews made mention that the color saturation relied on the deep black levels, because color control had to be set so low to account for green push, which is yet another problem.(S1) Panasonic just rushed these pieces of junk out the door to have a 2009 model line. I am rightfully po'ed. If this doesn't get fixed, and it is swept under the rug, I in all likelihood will never by anything Panasonic again. (Coming from a guy who has owned 2 Panasonic plasmas, and a multitude of other Panasonic electronics)

Same here. If they don't get a fix out for this issue, they won't be making any money from me anymore. I'll make sure to tell friends and family members to avoid them too.
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post #2009 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 07:39 PM
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Just a quick little note. On my dvdo processor, when I quity bring up the gray bars while watching letterbox movies, right as I exit the gray bars, the deep black returns, and then brightens up within 1-2 seconds. Is this perhaps a problem with the Real Black Drive floating black mechanism?
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post #2010 of 11217 Old 01-20-2010, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Lindros88 View Post

Same here. If they don't get a fix out for this issue, they won't be making any money from me anymore. I'll make sure to tell friends and family members to avoid them too.

Yeah, and whenever some jerk comes on here saying that every tv has problems, it gets me even angrier.Green push, thx, and black levels rising are 3 HUGE issues for a model line of tv's to feature. So what do our tv's have going for them now? Horribly washed out picture during the day, dull washed out picture with dull, gray blacks at night. Only thing we've got going for us is motion resolution!!

90% of what makes a plasma superior to an lcd is gone. Most lcd's would be preferable to a lightly aged Panasonic plasma. Time to start going on to the likes of Amazon.com and best buy and warning people not to buy.
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