Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigGB View Post

hi, has anyone who has not been in the service menu had the issue occur?, also has anyone not had the problem?, I don't know if this is supposed to happen on every set or just some as my friends father has noticed it on his set (hes 84 ) and panasonic said they would be willing to investigate this when we rang not that im sure much would come of it but they said they needed more information on how this is happening so anything is appreciated if anyone knows what is causing this

I have the 46g10, the build date is April and so far i have over 1000 hrs and my blacks are black as day one. I have never entered the SM, but i keep track of the hrs on paper. Hope Panasonic does something about this, for all of you with this problem.
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post #182 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick1000 View Post

I have the 46g10, the build date is April and so far i have over 1000 hrs and my blacks are black as day one. I have never entered the SM, but i keep track of the hrs on paper. Hope Panasonic does something about this, for all of you with this problem.

oh dear, now im beginning to regret going into the SM , wish i had read into it before deciding to go check the time the set had been used, im pretty much 100% sure i didn't change anything in there but i seem to be convinced that there is a change in the picture anyways...though i expect thats just me being waaay too paranoid

im assuming theres no way to do some kind of total reset to reset everything including the service menu so it would be just as though i never entered it other then some sort of hardware based option such as mentioned above?

only got the tv 3 days ago too
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post #183 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

So why not just turn down the brightness and recalibrate?

Are we sure we're talking about the same kind of thing here Iciallo, what you referred to as low level activation? Whatever is going on here is not correctable by calibration whatsoever. I can drop the "brightness" down to 0, and still measure this inflated level of around 0.018fL. I thought you were referring to the potential of very minor grayscale shifts when you were mentioning recalibration earlier in the thread.
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post #184 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigGB View Post

oh dear, now im beginning to regret going into the SM , wish i had read into it before deciding to go check the time the set had been used, im pretty much 100% sure i didn't change anything in there but i seem to be convinced that there is a change in the picture anyways...though i expect thats just me being waaay too paranoid

im assuming theres no way to do some kind of total reset to reset everything including the service menu so it would be just as though i never entered it other then some sort of hardware based option such as mentioned above?

only got the tv 3 days ago too

I just don't believe the action of entering the SM triggers some type of black level elevation. No data, just makes no sense of any kind.
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post #185 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I have talked to Panasonic about it as well, they had to escalate it to tier 2, who would escalate it to engineering. He took down some pretty specific notes, that I have a light meter, and have measured an increase from ~.008fL to .018. That it just happened out of nowhere, possibly at a specific hour count. That it was easily noticeable by eye. They said they would call back after the investigation, though there is next to zero chance I will be home when (or even if) they do, so that's probably the last you'll hear of it unfortunately.

I would recommend everyone that thinks they may be affected call and start a trouble ticket for the problem. They should just escalate the issue to higher departments, which is what we need.

well after comparing my brand new set to the other set we could see the difference so I did ring panasonic and described the issue and I actually was told they were already looking into this and that my issues would be noted as well

I hope they do ring you back as I (and many others i would assume) would be very interested to hear what they say

sorry for another double post btw
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post #186 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

I just don't believe the action of entering the SM triggers some type of black level elevation. No data, just makes no sense of any kind.

I agree totally, Jeff

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post #187 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 07:03 PM
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I've never accessed the service menu and about 3 weeks ago noticed that the black bars on a blu-ray movie (first blood) didn't appear to be as black as I remembered. They struck me as a lighter shade of black, certainly not dark grey as others have described the phenomenon. I want to emphasize this is just an observation that isn't backed by any data measured on any instruments. I also never knew of this thread when I noticed the "possible" shift in black level so I wasn't looking for a problem. Nonetheless, I'm now constantly evaluating the black level and trying to determine if there's been a change. I apologize that this post is just more unscientific speculation, but I just wanted to add my experience.

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post #188 of 11268 Old 09-25-2009, 10:59 PM
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I agree totally, Jeff

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Jeff, Larry, and members of AVSForum.

I too, agree.
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post #189 of 11268 Old 09-26-2009, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

What you describe is nothing more than "floating black level" and it has nothing to do with the phenomenon being discussed here.

Larry

Panasonic got rid of that crap feature in these 09 models, something I was very grateful for (and did extensive testing to confirm that it was indeed gone), but what it looks like is happening is that this "feature" is triggering a permanent change in the black levels at some point. Just because it is no longer working on all content like it did on past Panasonic plasma sets, doesn't mean that they eliminated it from the code. (so a random glitch could cause it to activate and trigger this rise in black levels)

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post #190 of 11268 Old 09-26-2009, 07:22 AM
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In the past few days, I've been re-tweaking my P50G10 - so I can't say for sure, but I have a feeling mine changed after about three months of watching (probably 20-25 hours per week - what's that, close to 300 hours as well?) I watch a variety of sources (broadcast HD, low quality cable, Blu-ray, DVD, plus recorded and streaming content from a laptop where I have had trouble getting gamma right), so it's been difficult to compare and remember from day to day. Honestly, I was excited to see the changes I experienced. I noticed improved shadow detail in the lighting conditions I usually have. It's only been since I started reading this thread that I started considering the MLL may have come up.

Now that I'm looking at it noticing MLL, as opposed to shadow detail, I've noticed that the black bars are brighter, but it hasn't bothered me. What seems weird to me, is that the black bars aren't the darkest thing on the screen. Last night, during a commercial break (OTA HD) an SD ad came on with black background - I think it was the fine print at the end of a car commercial. Anyway, the black bars on the side were brighter than the black background for the commercial. Am I wrong to interpret that as an indication the the MLL hasn't really changed, that in terms of ANSI contrast, nothing has changed?

Am I understanding this right? Does this coincide with what the OP and others are seeing?


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post #191 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Are we sure we're talking about the same kind of thing here Iciallo, what you referred to as low level activation? Whatever is going on here is not correctable by calibration whatsoever. I can drop the "brightness" down to 0, and still measure this inflated level of around 0.018fL. I thought you were referring to the potential of very minor grayscale shifts when you were mentioned recalibration earlier in the thread.


There are gray scale changes just due to aging. What I speculated upon earlier is that there are changes in activation levels that affect blacks and that some vendors actually program a change in the waveforms that affect this into the sets to account for the change as the set ages in. Others do not. Getting that info out of a vendor is very difficult.

So you are saying that even with recalibration, your blacks are different? Does someone have some calibration data to confirm this? I'd like to see a complete set of data before and after, with several runs at different brightless levels around black to nail down the difference in behavior pre and post.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #192 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 09:50 AM
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What I can't logic out in my head is this: why would a manufacturer decide "Hey, after xxx hours, let's program in a change that makes black levels worse!" I could almost understand if they decided to make them BETTER (i.e. "blacker") but why would they intentionally make them worse? There's no doubt that Orta's TV DID do something to make his black levels worse. Why/How is not understood.
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post #193 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

What I can't logic out in my head is this: why would a manufacturer decide "Hey, after xxx hours, let's program in a change that makes black levels worse!" I could almost understand if they decided to make them BETTER (i.e. "blacker") but why would they intentionally make them worse? There's no doubt that Orta's TV DID do something to make his black levels worse. Why/How is not understood.

That's what is called software bug. The programmer doesn't intend his software to malfunction but bugs always creep into the software. You fix something and without knowing it effects an entirely different part of the system.
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post #194 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 11:14 AM
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That's what is called software bug. The programmer doesn't intend his software to malfunction but bugs always creep into the software. You fix something and without knowing it effects an entirely different part of the system.

Yeah, if this is something impacting all G10s and not just Orta's set, I would have to assume it's a bug. And I would assume, if Panasonic was aware of it, it would be pretty simple to fix in firmware.
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post #195 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Panasonic got rid of that crap feature in these 09 models, something I was very grateful for (and did extensive testing to confirm that it was indeed gone), but what it looks like is happening is that this "feature" is triggering a permanent change in the black levels at some point. Just because it is no longer working on all content like it did on past Panasonic plasma sets, doesn't mean that they eliminated it from the code. (so a random glitch could cause it to activate and trigger this rise in black levels)

Please link me to the references that show the results of the extensive testing that prove that the Panasonics eliminated the floating black 'feature' in their G12 models.

Larry
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post #196 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

What I can't logic out in my head is this: why would a manufacturer decide "Hey, after xxx hours, let's program in a change that makes black levels worse!" I could almost understand if they decided to make them BETTER (i.e. "blacker") but why would they intentionally make them worse? There's no doubt that Orta's TV DID do something to make his black levels worse. Why/How is not understood.

It may well be that Panasonic is not doing anything of the sort, and the panels or drive electronics break in and change over time. Regardless, if they are the ones doing something like this, it is a matter of making a guess based on data from a number of panels and the result in either case, doing nothing or programming a changek is going to be as variable as sets coming off the line are anyway. The bottom line is, there should be controls to adjust for the problem, and there may be. I have not seen the problem, nor have I made measurements of the panel drive waveforms pre and post burn in. I can tell you that measurements on Panasonic and Pioneer panels that I have made make it clear that they do change in color temperature slighty after a coupe of hundred hours of running time, and that overall brightness is affected. I have also noticed that on many panels of various brands, they seem to have higher levels of random activation level noise in the blacks early in their life compared to after a few hundred hours. Panels and electronics DO change with time.

What most do not understand, and are not typically capable of measuring, is that the waveform applied to the panel drives is complex and the timing of the ramp is critical to black level and reducing activation level noise. These adjustments are documented in some brands and models and not in others. You need a scope to make these observations and measurements, and I would not recommend attempting anything without specific documentation and instructions from the manufacturer. I have not researched the matter on recent models.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #197 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post
There are gray scale changes just due to aging. What I speculated upon earlier is that there are changes in activation levels that affect blacks and that some vendors actually program a change in the waveforms that affect this into the sets to account for the change as the set ages in. Others do not. Getting that info out of a vendor is very difficult.

So you are saying that even with recalibration, your blacks are different? Does someone have some calibration data to confirm this? I'd like to see a complete set of data before and after, with several runs at different brightless levels around black to nail down the difference in behavior pre and post.
Not sure how useful they will be aside from the 0% reading on the grayscale, but I've attached 3 early runs I had saved from before the elevation. I didn't do any near black measures unfortunately. The MLL measures are a bit elevated in their own right as they represent quite a bit of phosphorescence/IR from making so many passes at 70-100% windows. The 4th one, labeled post elevation, was from a few minutes ago. I did the grayscale run at a brightness setting of 0, and the near black measures at a brightness of 80 (which shows obvious activation noise/dithering, whatever you would call it).

Pics for those without HCFR: Point of interest is the luminance "Y" value, 0% Gray. Values are in cd/m^2, not fL.

Earlier Measures (3 separate occasions): Gray Scale with "Brightness" at 64-67: Before MLL elevation.









Current Measure: Gray Scale at "Brightness" 0 (ZERO): Post MLL elevation





Current Measure: Near Black at "Brightness" 80: Post MLL elevation

 

HCFR Files.zip 14.7998046875k . file
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post #198 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 02:30 PM
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Orta,

If you still have your equipment hooked up, it would be interesting to see a run with Contrast turned down (in addition to Brightness) to zero and even one with Contrast and Color turned down. (To those without scientific backgrounds this may seem silly but it is not. It's purpose is to eliminate all possible variables.)

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post #199 of 11268 Old 09-27-2009, 06:28 PM
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My question is my 50G10 is new. I have it broke in and am using it probably at about 130 or 150 hours right now. I'm still well under the 30 day store period so is this something I should consider returning this TV over? I mean I can always get a different brand if this is something that is going to happen.
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post #200 of 11268 Old 09-28-2009, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Please link me to the references that show the results of the extensive testing that prove that the Panasonics eliminated the floating black 'feature' in their G12 models.

Larry

This was my single greatest complaint with my old 42px75, all it took to show it was a movie with black bars and the black bars would constantly change in brightness, which is why I ALWAYS had to use zoom modes, it was really noticeable. With my 54g10 I have tried everything to get even a tiny shift, but I get nothing. They really did get rid of the feature (they called it the "Real Black Drive") I have not seen it once except for when my black levels rose dramatically, it was the same look as what the RBD caused, but it was a permanent rise.

What replaced the Real Black Drive was a much more obvious dither pattern on any content that would have required the RBD, which I can easily see at 14 feet away from the set. (and I actually think that this might be more annoying than the RBD in it's own way)

I was very happy when I found out that this feature was taken out, but it seems that all they did was turn it off, it is probably still buried in the software somewhere, and my guess is that it is causing this increase in some way or another.

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post #201 of 11268 Old 09-28-2009, 10:32 AM
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Posting this in a couple of the threads where people are talking about the 1.25 firmware:

OK - so I sent Panasonic an email and told them about the speculation on the 1.25 firmware, and whether it addressed the THX color issue and any other issues.

Their answer:

"Dear Dr. Lackey

Thank you for your inquiry.

The firmware you are referring to was released in the U.K. and the
firmware in the U.S. is just a board update firmware to help prevent
certain error codes.

Thank you for contacting Panasonic.

Thank You,
Panasonic Consumer Support"

Very disappointing.
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post #202 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 11:44 AM
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Has anyone with a g15 model had this problem? I haven't seen anyone post about it anywhere but this thread.

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post #203 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 01:03 PM
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Has anyone with a g15 model had this problem? I haven't seen anyone post about it anywhere but this thread.

G15 = G10 in everything except cosmetic case design. And name.
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post #204 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 01:11 PM
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Every current Panasonic plasma description that I looked at on their web site has "Real Black Drive" mentioned as a 'feature.' That included the X, S and G series.
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...00000000005702


On both my X1s, I see floating black in all picture modes other than Cinema.

Yes, the px75u was particularly annoying in this respect.

Larry

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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

This was my single greatest complaint with my old 42px75, all it took to show it was a movie with black bars and the black bars would constantly change in brightness, which is why I ALWAYS had to use zoom modes, it was really noticeable. With my 54g10 I have tried everything to get even a tiny shift, but I get nothing. They really did get rid of the feature (they called it the "Real Black Drive") I have not seen it once except for when my black levels rose dramatically, it was the same look as what the RBD caused, but it was a permanent rise.

What replaced the Real Black Drive was a much more obvious dither pattern on any content that would have required the RBD, which I can easily see at 14 feet away from the set. (and I actually think that this might be more annoying than the RBD in it's own way)

I was very happy when I found out that this feature was taken out, but it seems that all they did was turn it off, it is probably still buried in the software somewhere, and my guess is that it is causing this increase in some way or another.

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post #205 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 02:04 PM
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New VIERA models incorporate an improved panel production process and the new Real Black Drive system. A pre-discharge control system, the Real Black Drive system combines with NeoPDP technology to achieve next-generation black reproduction. When you're watching movies, VIERA renders images just the way the director intended, even in scenes where it's difficult to achieve a proper balance of light and dark.

Sounds like they changed the way that it worked over the previous models because on my G10 it doesn't do anything like what my 42px75 does with blacks. (their description sounds similar to Pioneer's discharge system for preserving black levels and preventing IR...)

I run my G10 in standard mode using serialmike's settings. I can make the blacks fluctuate using test patterns, but it is more of a greyscale shift than a black level shift. (more details are visible in my greyscale step pattern) so it probably isn't the same as it is on other Panasonic models.

So there is a possibility that the old style of the real black drive might still be burried in the G10 coding somewhere causing this increase to happen at some random point....

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post #206 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 02:20 PM
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"Sounds like...."
"....sounds similar...."
".....it probably....."
".....there is a possibility....."
".....might still be burried....."
".....at some random point...."

Not very convincing to a scientist. Sorry.

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post #207 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

"Sounds like...."
"....sounds similar...."
".....it probably....."
".....there is a possibility....."
".....might still be burried....."
".....at some random point...."

Not very convincing to a scientist. Sorry.

Larry

Sorry, but nobody seems to have an answer to what is going on and I am just trying to help solve this puzzle. We have to come up with some likely candidates as to what is causing this before we can narrow it down. (and the real black drive is a pretty good place to start since it creates a similar look on older Panasonic models)

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post #208 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Sorry, but nobody seems to have an answer to what is going on and I am just trying to help solve this puzzle. We have to come up with some likely candidates as to what is causing this before we can narrow it down. (and the real black drive is a pretty good place to start since it creates a similar look on older Panasonic models)

First it has to be proved that there is a problem to be solved. Hard engineering data is the only way to do this -- not speculation or anecdotal evidence. Dr. Lackey, for one, has mentioned this a number of times. (Like that, Jeff?)

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post #209 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

First it has to be proved that there is a problem to be solved. Hard engineering data is the only way to do this -- not speculation or anecdotal evidence. Dr. Lackey, for one, has mentioned this a number of times. (Like that, Jeff?)

Larry

So then, why are our black levels rising?

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post #210 of 11268 Old 09-29-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

So then, why are our black levels rising?

Reread my post. I don't know why or even if they are changing. That's the point of this thread. You're chasing your tail on this one.

Until there is hard and complete evidence, there will only be speculation.

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