Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 72 - AVS Forum
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post #2131 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Finally, some logical ideas about what might be going on here. So the people that ran slides on their displays for hours on end, may be more at risk than the people who broke them in normally.

how about ppl who run their panels at 40ftL or above compared to below 30?
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post #2132 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Why do you find it necessary to say these kinds of things on this thread? You are the one with an attitude and you contribute basically nothing but "doom and gloom" to this thread.

i second GOV on this...christian ro has one of the most negative attitude on this thread....while it may be brought on by his frustration on his blacks his post are not contributing anything at all.
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post #2133 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 03:09 PM
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It seems Panasonic's found the problem and fixed on 2010 models.

Reduced Pre-Discharge:
To minimize light leakage, we found a way to reduce the level of pre-discharge required for plasma light emission. This helps achieve deeper, richer blacks that give images exceptional depth and presence.

Source:
http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/us201...ion/index.html

As I recall on patent, and the issue here, it does includes problems with panel discharge hence rising the black levels.

[]s,
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post #2134 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

It seems Panasonic's found the problem and fixed on 2010 models.

Reduced Pre-Discharge:
To minimize light leakage, we found a way to reduce the level of pre-discharge required for plasma light emission. This helps achieve deeper, richer blacks that give images exceptional depth and presence.

Source:
http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/us201...ion/index.html

As I recall on patent, and the issue here, it does includes problems with panel discharge hence rising the black levels.

i dont think that has anything to do with the rising black levels problem, minimising light leakage by reducing pre discharge is the holy grail of plasma tech development and something that the kuros do very well. the problem of rising blacks here seems to be a programmed rise in drive voltage which has not being implemented correctly, at least for some sets.
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post #2135 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosekaka View Post

i second GOV on this...christian ro has one of the most negative attitude on this thread....while it may be brought on by his frustration on his blacks his post are not contributing anything at all.

you can call it frustration or whatever. its my right to express my feelings and concerns about something i am not happy with it.
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post #2136 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

you can call it frustration or whatever. its my right to express my feelings and concerns about something i am not happy with it.

So your point has been made, we all get it, now quit beating a dead horse then.
Yes if my V10's blacks rose I would be upset as well. I would post about it here too, but not every single post would be "pissing and moaning".

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post #2137 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

So your point has been made, we all get it, now quit beating a dead horse then.
Yes if my V10's blacks rose I would be upset as well. I would post about it here too, but not every single post would be "pissing and moaning".

While I agree there, I just wish Panny would admit that something is wrong and that they are working on it. We are left in the dark (no pun intended) on this still
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post #2138 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 04:28 PM
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I really do hope panny does fix the issue for the 08-09 plasmas, but as dnice referenced, the 2010 kuro tech models shouldnt, the new g2 is supposed to be out next month in japan, the 1st panny using kuro tech..

http://www.plasmatvreviews.org.uk/pl...-by-panasonic/
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post #2139 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Something funny...

I swear I think this has to do with cooling...

When I powered my V10 on yesterday it was different -- the darks were more dark.

And also unusual I could hear the fans from across the room.

I wonder if heat buildup could cause brighter blacks...

Maybe some batches have bad cooling devices (aka bad batches of analog fans or temp sensors) versus firmware and such.

Does the A-board replacement contain cooling components on it ? Maybe the new A Board stays more cool with die shrinks or better heat sinks.

that's an interesting theory

I'm gonna put this to the test

I've got a window directly behind my tv so I'm gonna crack that window open and see if the nice canadian cool winter helps at all
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post #2140 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

that's an interesting theory

I'm gonna put this to the test

I've got a window directly behind my tv so I'm gonna crack that window open and see if the nice canadian cool winter helps at all

I'm not sure what fans everyone is talking about.

I thought my TV had fans, but I was told that it doesn't by people who have opened and taken pictures of their G10's. For all intents and purposes, my TV is Silent. Yes, I mean silent. With no other noise of any kind in my room, I can't hear any noise from my TV. It produces no sound so I'm not sure if the V10 has actual fans or if it's just louder than the G10.

I don't think it has anything to do with cooling. My room stays fairly cool, especially right now. After my black rose, they haven't really fluctuated in any way.
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post #2141 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 10:01 PM
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I have no idea if the black level on my G10 rises further after warming up. It looks pretty terrible from the moment it's turned on.
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post #2142 of 11198 Old 01-24-2010, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

I'm not sure what fans everyone is talking about.

I thought my TV had fans, but I was told that it doesn't by people who have opened and taken pictures of their G10's. For all intents and purposes, my TV is Silent. Yes, I mean silent. With no other noise of any kind in my room, I can't hear any noise from my TV. It produces no sound so I'm not sure if the V10 has actual fans or if it's just louder than the G10.

Those people must be blind. I can see the fans in my G10 from the outside. They're located behind the two center vents on the top.
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post #2143 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pj325is View Post

Those people must be blind. I can see the fans in my G10 from the outside. They're located behind the two center vents on the top.

I don't see any fans looking down through those vents. I see a bunch of heatsinks, but nothing else.

I should be able to hear something from the top of my tv, but I don't hear anything either.

There is a picture somewhere on these forums of a G10 with the back casing off and I remember there weren't any fans. I'm going to try and find that picture and will post back.
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post #2144 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 12:14 AM
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tried cooling my room to see if there was any affect.... its' currently a very chilly 54 degrees..... and I actually think my black levels are WORSE than they were 4 days ago



4 days ago



today






and just as a kick in the nuts my 3 year old Kuro 5080






they should all be with the same settings since I set my Camera to manual and haven't changed it since taking the pics 4 days ago
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post #2145 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

I don't see any fans looking down through those vents. I see a bunch of heatsinks, but nothing else.

I should be able to hear something from the top of my tv, but I don't hear anything either.

There is a picture somewhere on these forums of a G10 with the back casing off and I remember there weren't any fans. I'm going to try and find that picture and will post back.

The V10 has (4) 80mm pc case fan type fans in it. The G10 should be the same.
I saw them when my Aboard was replaced. If they ever go bad or make noise I will replace them myself. I have 9+ years experience ripping apart laptops and building them from the ground up. Once my TV is out of warranty I will work on it myself. There is no difference from working on a PC tablet, laptop, etc, and replacing lcds, inverters, digitizers, mainboards, etc,than working on a Flat screen TV.

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post #2146 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

tried cooling my room to see if there was any affect.... its' currently a very chilly 54 degrees.....

First,this cooling scenario is a theory.No one has posted anything concrete to show this patent has even been commercialized.
Second,its not about real time cooling and in fact real time fluctuations are averaged by design to prevent the potential for rapid shifts.
Its about hardware failure and/or code.
Real time conditions are irrelevant if a sensor continually sends a signal that the panel temp. is high.
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post #2147 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pj325is View Post

I can see the fans in my G10 from the outside. They're located behind the two center vents on the top.

Correct. They're also the only two that I seen when they replaced my A-board. The international models may be different, however.
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post #2148 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Something funny...

I swear I think this has to do with cooling...

When I powered my V10 on yesterday it was different -- the darks were more dark.

And also unusual I could hear the fans from across the room.

I wonder if heat buildup could cause brighter blacks...

Maybe some batches have bad cooling devices (aka bad batches of analog fans or temp sensors) versus firmware and such.

Does the A-board replacement contain cooling components on it ? Maybe the new A Board stays more cool with die shrinks or better heat sinks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

First,this cooling scenario is a theory.No one has posted anything concrete to show this patent has even been commercialized.
Second,its not about real time cooling and in fact real time fluctuations are averaged by design to prevent the potential for rapid shifts.
Its about hardware failure and/or code.
Real time conditions are irrelevant if a sensor continually sends a signal that the panel temp. is high.

yes I understand this but this is the only thing I could think of to test the theory out
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post #2149 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 07:01 AM
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I have another theory that maybe D-Nice could answer.

Remember back when Panasonic models kept suffering from purple snakes, that seems to have stopped with the 08 models, could the fix for that problem be causeing the black level problems that we are experiencing now? I haven't done any research into the purple snakes so I could be way off base with this, but this is something that seems to line up with the start of the black rise, and nobody has brought it up yet so there might be something to it.

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post #2150 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosekaka View Post

i dont think that has anything to do with the rising black levels problem, minimising light leakage by reducing pre discharge is the holy grail of plasma tech development and something that the kuros do very well. the problem of rising blacks here seems to be a programmed rise in drive voltage which has not being implemented correctly, at least for some sets.

I guess you missed xrox's post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17832102

Here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17388787

And here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17810990

[]s,
Fernando
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post #2151 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 08:04 AM
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The rep. I just spoke with indicated that they are planning a firmware fix for this issue. He didn't have any specifics, or dates, so take it with a grain of salt.... but we'll see.
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post #2152 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 08:36 AM
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My 54G10 has no fans. The G15 and V10's have fans due to the thinner back cover. Less room for heat sinks and airflow.

Smaller size G10's may have fans or Panasonic made a change at some point.
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post #2153 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

tried cooling my room to see if there was any affect.... its' currently a very chilly 54 degrees..... and I actually think my black levels are WORSE than they were 4 days ago




today


That's some horrible IR. Did you keep your settings low for the the first few hundred hours? My friend has the same set and he hasn't had any issues.
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post #2154 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

The rep. I just spoke with indicated that they are planning a firmware fix for this issue. He didn't have any specifics, or dates, so take it with a grain of salt.... but we'll see.

this is indeed correct... from what I get from them is this is not an issue that is easily fixed and does not affect every set. Still no black level rise for me. I have a couple buddies who have the v10 and none have this issue either.

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post #2155 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post

That's some horrible IR. Did you keep your settings low for the the first few hundred hours? My friend has the same set and he hasn't had any issues.

IR gets worse when your black levels rise. (due to the voltage issues)

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post #2156 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 11:46 AM
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Just had an interesting chat with Panasonic!!!

Me: Plasma HDTV
Panasonic: Connection established.
Panasonic: Initiating Chat, Please Wait.
Panasonic: Connecting... An agent will be with you shortly.
Panasonic: Welcome to Panasonic Chat. A transcript of this chat will be emailed to you once you disconnect.
Antione A: Hello. How may I assist you?
Me: I was just wondering if Panasonic is working on the black level issue that occurs between 250-500 hours on Panasonic S1, G10, and V10 sets. The black level rises to a level seen on a typical LCD computer monitor, and there is significantly more temporary image retention. Maybe a firmware fix coming up?
Antione A: sure
Me: So Panasonic is working on a firmware fix for this?
Antione A: Panasonic is currently researching the Issue for a resolution, correct
Antione A: Theres a good possibility that there will be firmware involved
Me: Thanks, do you know an approximate time table as to how long it should take?
Antione A: Where are not exactly sure when it will be available but I would not expect it to drag on past another Month
Me: Thank-you so much for your help!
Antione A: Sure, no problem
Antione A: Thanks for contacting Panasonic.
Me: Have a great day
Antione A: you too
Antione A: Thanks for contacting Panasonic.


Progress being made!!!
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post #2157 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 11:56 AM
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It is progress that they acknowledge the issue. That persons answers aren´t really answers though.

"Theres a good possibility that there will be firmware involved"

So there MIGHT be a firmware fix involved. Yet the next moment he says that he would expect the firmware to be released within a month??

Thank´s for the info though. Looks like there have been progress though in recent times on Panasonics part. Hope it´s not just talk.
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post #2158 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4t1 View Post

It is progess that they acknowledge the issue. That persons answers aren´t really answers though.

"Theres a good possibility that there will be firmware involved"

So there MIGHT be a firmware fix involved. Yet the next moment he says that he would expect the firmware to be released within a month??

Thank´s for the info though. Looks like there have been progress thogh in recent times on Panasonics part. Hope it´s not just talk.

My thoughts are that he knows that they are working on a firmware fix, but he doesn't want to say for certain so it can't be held against them.
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post #2159 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

My thoughts are that he knows that they are working on a firmware fix, but he doesn't want to say for certain so it can't be held against them.

What should be 'held against them' is the foot dragging about what is going on with these sets and what they plan to do to fix it. If they would publicly state this, owners and would be buyers would feel a lot better about it! These companies shoot themselves in the foot at every turn! You know darn well that Panny knows what is going on here, and what it will take to fix it. I am holding off any purchase of their product until they resolve this issue!
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post #2160 of 11198 Old 01-25-2010, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

What should be 'held against them' is the foot dragging about what is going on with these sets and what they plan to do to fix it. If they would publicly state this, owners and would be buyers would feel a lot better about it! These companies shoot themselves in the foot at every turn! You know darn well that Panny knows what is going on here, and what it will take to fix it. I am holding off any purchase of their product until they resolve this issue!

Exactly. +11111
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