Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 79 - AVS Forum
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post #2341 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 07:31 AM
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I killed the CATS!

This is a DVE calibrated set.
I'm talking keeping a blank input for a few minutes. Cats responds instantly to ambient light.
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post #2342 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 08:11 AM
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Wow. A Cnet artical just brought this thread to my attention. Which is good because now Its hit the main stream. I had read this site for months prior to my s1 purchase last summer. I am more than ticked off with panasonic. It was great to see Dnice amoungst others get recognized though. I hope they resolve this soon. I bought my plasma like many of you FOR the black level performance.
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post #2343 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4t1 View Post

isn´t it time to change the thread-title already? To something that at the very least includes all 12g panasonics!?

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Originally Posted by gelinas View Post

+1

+2
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post #2344 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 08:41 AM
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First time poster-long time reader of this forum. Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that my G15 is affected also. When I first purchased the set in early December of last year I was ecstatic with the picture quality and I seemed to have dodged the THX issues also. I watched the new Star Trek movie on BR disk and there is a scene where the Romulan ship is flying through space and I couldn't believe how good the blacks looked, I was in love! Well, I just watched the same scene again last night (about 400 hours on set) and it still looks great, but I DO notice that the scene now is more of a dark charcoal grey and lighter than it once was. Needless to say I am a bit annoyed, I bought this plasma based on the glowing (no pun intended) reviews. I still love my G15, as HDTV still looks great without the black bars, but when I watch a BR disk at night, I notice the bars have definitely lightened a bit. Too late to return it, I guess that I'm in the same boat and hope and pray that Panasonic will figure out a resolution for this problem. Like others have said, with a few lights on it still looks great, but once it gets movie theatre dark, the black bars are definately lighter than they once were. I'm calling Panasonic today.

Hopefully the CNET article will help the cause.
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post #2345 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 09:31 AM
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im still baffled by this black level rising.. I hope that when they figure something out they can tell us why and when it will happen if it has not happened already. it seems crazy that peoples sets are affected all over the place.(btw 200-1200 hours) I mean do the break in slides have something to do with it? Its also funny to me people with g15 claiming they had deep inky blacks in a all dark room. I have seen that TV and with the correct bias lighting you can create that inky affect but in a all dark room with black bars it will always be charcoal grey... can anyone with a v10 with over 500 hours measure there blacks and let me know what they are reading... i would love to see what everyone's MLL is currently..

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #2346 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 09:57 AM
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I just got off the phone with Panasonic and I could hear another CSR in the background talking to a customer about the same black-level issue, so hopefully more people are calling in to complain. I was told that they are aware of the problem and that somebody would call me when they find a resolution-who knows when that will be. I guess the best course of action at this point is to keep bugging them.

Rprsner-The G15 at 120 hours had beautiful blacks in THX mode, even in a dark room. I'm certainly no expert, but now it's more of a dark charcoal grey, I don't know how much it changed, but it is noticable to the naked eye. It's still viewable at this point with amibent lighting, but my main concern is that it will continue to lighten over time, I just hope that it can be fixed and we're not stuck with it. Good luck to all.
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post #2347 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody1811 View Post

I just got off the phone with Panasonic and I could hear another CSR in the background talking to a customer about the same black-level issue, so hopefully more people are calling in to complain. I was told that they are aware of the problem and that somebody would call me when they find a resolution-who knows when that will be. I guess the best course of action at this point is to keep bugging them.

Rpresner- the G15 at 120 hours had phenomenal blacks in THX mode, even in a dark room. I'm certainly no expert, but now it's more of a dark charcoal grey, I don't know how much it changed, but it is noticable to the naked eye. It's still viewable at this point with amibent lighting, but my main concern is that it will continue to lighten over time, I just hope that it can be fixed and we're not stuck with it. Good luck to all.

I hear ya... my biggest thing with all this talk is how it affects everyone so differently.. meaning different level dropping, how many hours, etc...it just seems so random

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post #2348 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 10:10 AM
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Will there be a widespread recall of all units?

I have a V10 and always thought the picture was pretty good, but we all spent a fair amount of hard earned cash here and I certainly want my unit to be operating at peak performance. It's not even 6 months old yet.

Thoughts?
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post #2349 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I said there are voltage adjustments at specifed hours.

A question for D-Nice if you are still reading this...

I've searched this thread, and I don't see any concrete number (as far as the hour) when this rise in MLL happens.

Would you be able to shine a little more light on this? I think I've seen people say anywhere from 200 hours to 1000 hours - Is it actually that random? If not random, what is the hour? Does the hour vary by series? (V10 different than G10, etc.)

Thanks in advance for any insight.

I turn the sharpness on my TV all the way up, because that's how I like my picture... real sharp.
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post #2350 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I hear ya... my biggest thing with all this talk is how it affects everyone so differently.. meaning different level dropping, how many hours, etc...it just seems so random

Agreed, it all just seems so random. I still love the tv and I could live with the current black level, it's just kind of annoying knowing that a month ago the blacks looked even better.
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post #2351 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 11:15 AM
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Since nobody is taking measurements on a daily or hourly basis ... it stands to reason that the black rise APPEARS random ... when in fact it "could be" occurring at the same timed intervals.

Also, when the rise happens , it is reasonable to suggest that some panels are more drastically affected than others ... but affected nonetheless.

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post #2352 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 11:29 AM
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System: Welcome to Panasonic Chat. A transcript of this chat will be emailed to you once you disconnect.
Customer Larry says: Hello
Customer Larry says: Hello???
Agent Antione A says: Hello. How may I assist you?
Customer Larry says: Hello Antione
Customer Larry says: I am having issues with the black levels of my V10
Customer Larry says: I understand a firmware fix will be released in early February?
Agent Antione A says: ok, we are currently reseaching for a Quick and Easy resolution for this issue.
Customer Larry says: is the damage permanent?
Agent Antione A says: correct, however that firmware releasing early February applies to the THX mode
Agent Antione A says: No permanent damage
Customer Larry says: what happened?
Customer Larry says: is this error solely related to THX mode? if I changed modes, would I be okay?
Agent Antione A says: usually this is the case
Agent Antione A says: the other modes should be fine
Customer Larry says: does the warranty cover this type of damage?
Agent Antione A says: Anything that is caused by defect or a software issue would normally be covered under the factory warranty
Customer Larry says: can you recommend a calibration disk to ensure optimal performance?
Agent Antione A says: Calibration is personal preference, The TV already comes from the factory with calibrated settings like Standard, Vivid, Cinema etc...
Customer Larry says: I must admit, I'm a bit scared. I spent a lot of money on this television
Customer Larry says: is panasonic going to stand by their products and, if need be, offer a recall?
Customer Larry says: What is the return period for a purchase from panasonic.com for this type of issue?
Customer Larry says: Hello?
Customer Larry says: ???
Agent Antione A says: Hello
Agent Antione A says: Sorry about that my chat log is having issue
Agent Antione A says: You have three days to make a return
Agent Antione A says: When buying from Panasonic Direct
Agent Antione A says: Are you still there?
Agent Antione A says: We will have to disconnect the chat if there is no response.
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post #2353 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt_79 View Post

System:
Customer Larry says: I must admit, I'm a bit scared. I spent a lot of money on this television
Customer Larry says: is panasonic going to stand by their products and, if need be, offer a recall?
Customer Larry says: What is the return period for a purchase from panasonic.com for this type of issue?
Customer Larry says: Hello?
Customer Larry says: ???
Agent Antione A says: Hello
Agent Antione A says: Sorry about that my chat log is having issue
Agent Antione A says: You have three days to make a return
Agent Antione A says: When buying from Panasonic Direct
Agent Antione A says: Are you still there?
Agent Antione A says: We will have to disconnect the chat if there is no response.

LOL I think you were getting to rough for him & he pulled the phone cord out of the wall.
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post #2354 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4t1 View Post

Isn´t it time to change the thread-title already? To something that at the very least includes all 12G panasonics!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelinas View Post

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by 240sxsexy View Post

+2

Sorry guys, I can only update the bolded tag at the top of the OP--not the title. I'm not aware of any "official" outlet to go about a title change, but I'll try emailing a moderator or something.
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post #2355 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

im still baffled by this black level rising.. I hope that when they figure something out they can tell us why and when it will happen if it has not happened already. it seems crazy that peoples sets are affected all over the place.(btw 200-1200 hours) I mean do the break in slides have something to do with it? Its also funny to me people with g15 claiming they had deep inky blacks in a all dark room. I have seen that TV and with the correct bias lighting you can create that inky affect but in a all dark room with black bars it will always be charcoal grey... can anyone with a v10 with over 500 hours measure there blacks and let me know what they are reading... i would love to see what everyone's MLL is currently..

RP

I have a V10 like yours. July Mfg date and now approx. 1300 hours.

I do employ bias lighting. Up until early to mid-December, I had seen no change in black levels. Sometime prior to Christmas, there was a definite rise. My guess is this happened just past the 1,000 hour mark. The rise is great enough that the bars surrounding letterbox or 4:3 content always look gray, somewhere between charcoal (dark) and a medium shade. If the bars had just moved to dark gray, I may not have noticed the change at all. However, the change is drastic enough that it can be seen not just in a darkened room or with bias lighting, but with other lighting or dayight as well.

I have had two good conversations with Panasonic and feel that they are attempting to find a solution. I specifically asked the second CSR that if a fix was not forthcoming, could I expect Panasonic to replace the set and he said "Yes" and that he would notate it in my case #.

I would advise anyone suspicious of this to open a case with Panasonic while your set is still in warranty. Most warranties will support your recourse, if necessary, even after the expiration, as long as the problem was reported prior to that point.

So at present, I am being patient and reasonable. I notice from your postings that you also seem to act in that manner.

With luck, we will see a resolution at some point in the coming moths.

David Freeman
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post #2356 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

RP

I have a V10 like yours. July Mfg date and now approx. 1300 hours.

I do employ bias lighting. Up until early to mid-December, I had seen no change in black levels. Sometime prior to Christmas, there was a definite rise. My guess is this happened just past the 1,000 hour mark. The rise is great enough that the bars surrounding letterbox or 4:3 content always look gray, somewhere between charcoal (dark) and a medium shade. If the bars had just moved to dark gray, I may not have noticed the change at all. However, the change is drastic enough that it can be seen not just in a darkened room or with bias lighting, but with other lighting or dayight as well.

I have had two good conversations with Panasonic and feel that they are attempting to find a solution. I specifically asked the second CSR that if a fix was not forthcoming, could I expect Panasonic to replace the set and he said "Yes" and that he would notate it in my case #.

I would advise anyone suspicious of this to open a case with Panasonic while your set is still in warranty. Most warranties will support your recourse, if necessary, even after the expiration, as long as the problem was reported prior to that point.

So at present, I am being patient and reasonable. I notice from your postings that you also seem to act in that manner.

With luck, we will see a resolution at some point in the coming moths.

did you happen to measure your set at the current hour mark your tv is at. I do not know how many hours for sure that I have(i think there is a thread on here that tells how, but i dont remember where to find it), but the last black level measurement on my TV came in at .007... which to me is well within my likings..

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #2357 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

RP

I have a V10 like yours. July Mfg date and now approx. 1300 hours.

I do employ bias lighting. Up until early to mid-December, I had seen no change in black levels. Sometime prior to Christmas, there was a definite rise. My guess is this happened just past the 1,000 hour mark. The rise is great enough that the bars surrounding letterbox or 4:3 content always look gray, somewhere between charcoal (dark) and a medium shade. If the bars had just moved to dark gray, I may not have noticed the change at all. However, the change is drastic enough that it can be seen not just in a darkened room or with bias lighting, but with other lighting or dayight as well.

I have had two good conversations with Panasonic and feel that they are attempting to find a solution. I specifically asked the second CSR that if a fix was not forthcoming, could I expect Panasonic to replace the set and he said "Yes" and that he would notate it in my case #.

I would advise anyone suspicious of this to open a case with Panasonic while your set is still in warranty. Most warranties will support your recourse, if necessary, even after the expiration, as long as the problem was reported prior to that point.

So at present, I am being patient and reasonable. I notice from your postings that you also seem to act in that manner.

With luck, we will see a resolution at some point in the coming moths.

i agree somewhat, to being patient. my problem is i called monday about this problem and they stated one of there tech's at the call center/service center would call me back in the next day or so. it is now thursday and no call so i called back today and spoke to a csr and told him my case #ect.. and that they were supposed to call me. he then stated they should call today and they come in at noon (i called around 11:30 am. no call as of yet today. the thing the gets me po'ed is they stated they would call and haven't. like you state i do have a case # and i will try to be patient. during the day the tv is watchable ,but at night the black level rise really shows and movies that have a lot of dark scenes do not look very good/correct. i have already had the A-board replaced on this tv the first month or so i had it. i heard a pop noise come from the living room were the plasma is and it would not power on and the led just blinked and now this rising black level stuff. hopefully panasonic will get this straighted out and i can watch my plasma as it was meant to be watched with dark blacks not charcoal gray.
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post #2358 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

did you happen to measure your set at the current hour mark your tv is at. I do not know how many hours for sure that I have(i think there is a thread on here that tells how, but i dont remember where to find it), but the last black level measurement on my TV came in at .007... which to me is well within my likings..

No measurements as I do not have a meter.

Have never been in the Service Menu. I ran the infamous break-in slides mixed with regular content over a two week period when the TV was purchased. At that time, I started keeping a log with the number of hours for break-in and number of hours regular viewing. After about 200 hours of slides and 150 hours of normal viewing, I did some routine adjustments using DVE and have since applied settings from CO1 and Mike Morrison which continue to deliver an awesome picture.

Have continued to keep a weekly log estimating the number of hours usage. This is fairly easy to do as the set is seldom turned on prior to about 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. in the evening and we are seldom up past 10:30 on weeknights. On weekends, the number of hours varies depending on how much time we are at home watching sports or movies vs. how much time at live sports, movies, plays, concerts, etc.

My plan was to purchase an eye-one LT shortly after Christmas. However, since Panasonic did not seem to doubt the validity of my claims and I can show them the 42 month old Panasonic plasma side-by-side, I may wait until the black problem is resolved before spending the money on the meter.

David Freeman
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post #2359 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigdaddye View Post

i agree somewhat, to being patient. my problem is i called monday about this problem and they stated one of there tech's at the call center/service center would call me back in the next day or so. it is now thursday and no call so i called back today and spoke to a csr and told him my case #ect.. and that they were supposed to call me. he then stated they should call today and they come in at noon (i called around 11:30 am. no call as of yet today. the thing the gets me po'ed is they stated they would call and haven't. like you state i do have a case # and i will try to be patient. during the day the tv is watchable ,but at night the black level rise really shows and movies that have a lot of dark scenes do not look very good/correct. i have already had the A-board replaced on this tv the first month or so i had it. i heard a pop noise come from the living room were the plasma is and it would not power on and the led just blinked and now this rising black level stuff. hopefully panasonic will get this straighted out and i can watch my plasma as it was meant to be watched with dark blacks not charcoal gray.

I guess I was more fortunate. I never asked for a call back. I did call a second time to speak with a second level support person who was more aware of the problem than the initial CSR. Knowing that there was no solution to the problem at this time, except for the drastic measures of replacing the panel, A-Board and SS-Board, and the not knowing how long the change would remain, I was only looking to have my case logged and see if there was further information. As suspected, there was no further information to be found from what they publish for their telephone support people.

I will continue to call about every three to four weeks for updates. At some point, I will probably ask for a resolution and take steps as far as necessary to insure that I receive one that is suitable.

As I said, if my blacks had changed to charcoal, I may have gone many additional months without noticing it. Mine are lighter than what I call charcoal, although still several steps below even medium gray. I am also lucky that I have seen to sign of IR, and as stated in my original post, the picture is still outstanding. Even with blacks that do not match my 42 month old unit, the overall picture is still far superior and I still enjoy my regular television viewing.

I do expect that Panasonic should deliver a product that remains consistent with the quality for which it was purchased.

David Freeman
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post #2360 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 01:16 PM
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Don't know if I am unusually dim today, but just noticed that the forum title was changed to "Panasonic 11G/12G black levels have seemingly doubled over night?".

It looks like either Orta contacted the right person or one of the moderators noticed this and made the change.

Good job to whomever.

David Freeman
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post #2361 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 02:11 PM
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I've emailed panasonic 3 times before, and not once have I received a reply. Pretty bad
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post #2362 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pj325is:
Those people must be blind. I can see the fans in my G10 from the outside. They're located behind the two center vents on the top.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

I don't see any fans looking down through those vents. I see a bunch of heatsinks, but nothing else.

I should be able to hear something from the top of my tv, but I don't hear anything either.

There is a picture somewhere on these forums of a G10 with the back casing off and I remember there weren't any fans. I'm going to try and find that picture and will post back.

All you guys that are arguing back and forth about the cooling fans and not stating the whole model numbers need to know that some models/sizes have fans and some don't. For instance, the 46G10 has two fans, the 46G15 has four fans, and IIRC the 54G10 has NO fans. It seems that the larger TVs have enough air space within the rear cabinet that the heat sinks are enough to disperse the heat.

I wonder if these differences have an impact on the theory that heat is a contributing factor to the black level problem?

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post #2363 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 03:42 PM
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Panasonic firmware web page has a bunch of new FWs dated 1/26/2010. They are for u1/s1/s14/g10/v10 panels and described as

"Mandatory Update - SC Bd damage reduction"

http://www.techtraining.panasonic.co...ent/Plasma.ASP

WTH?
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post #2364 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 03:43 PM
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I think Panasonic has uploaded the panel firmware update for the black level issue along with the THX update at this site http://www.techtraining.panasonic.co...ent/Plasma.ASP

I can't seem to get it to download though, there are also instructions included. If anyone updates their set let me know if the black level issue is corrected.
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post #2365 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Panasonic firmware web page has a bunch of new FWs dated 1/26/2010. They are for u1/s1/s14/g10/v10 panels and described as

"Mandatory Update - SC Bd damage reduction"

http://www.techtraining.panasonic.co...ent/Plasma.ASP

WTH?

Just a second behind you lol.
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post #2366 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

I think Panasonic has uploaded the panel firmware update for the black level issue along with the THX update at this site http://www.techtraining.panasonic.co...ent/Plasma.ASP

I can't seem to get it to download though, there are also instructions included. If anyone updates their set let me know if the black level issue is corrected.

I couldn't download it either. Also interesting to note that 58" and 65" panels are not listed. May have something to do with the fact that those two sizes have different black levels than smaller panels (according to D-nice).
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post #2367 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by likwidsh0k View Post

Can anyone please comment on whether this applies to the US market only or internationally?

The 50g10 I am considering in Australia is the TH-P50G10A whereas I believe the one discussed in this thread is the TC-P50G10 which has THX and some other menu options we don't have.

Thanks,
Lik

Yes mate ive got the Aussie V10 and my blacks have risen with photos to prove.
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post #2368 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 04:01 PM
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VERY VERY interesting! there are apparently TWO types of chipset, SEINE and PEAKS!

SEINE for the S1s and S14 and PEAKS for everything else!

looking at the instructions, its interesting to note that the file look quite hurriedly
put together, you can see the reflection of the engineers taking a pic of the TV!
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post #2369 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

I couldn't download it either. Also interesting to note that 58" and 65" panels are not listed. May have something to do with the fact that those two sizes have different black levels than smaller panels (according to D-nice).

mmoh00,

Unfortunately also so far they've neglected the X1 and associated models. If this is a MLL fix, they better fix mine.

Larry
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post #2370 of 11439 Old 01-28-2010, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

I think Panasonic has uploaded the panel firmware update for the black level issue along with the THX update at this site http://www.techtraining.panasonic.co...ent/Plasma.ASP

I can't seem to get it to download though, there are also instructions included. If anyone updates their set let me know if the black level issue is corrected.

I can't even read the instructions - says the file is damaged.

I'm interested to see what this is about.

I turn the sharpness on my TV all the way up, because that's how I like my picture... real sharp.
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