Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 11255 Old 10-07-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I don't expect anything to happen about it to be honest. These model lines are well past mid cycle, all resources have almost assuredly shifted to the 2010's. They seem befuddled enough by the supposed THX fix--something that is well documented, easily proven/described, and affects every G10/V10 produced up to very recently. I know the professionals must have calibrated a ton of these displays, but none of them have ever mentioned anything about this. Only conclusion I can come to is that I just have a dud unit and "placebo-ed" a bunch of people into seeing the same. Unlike Tom's gradual shift over a very long period, this happened dramatically all at once, so I'm not sure how comparable the two situations really are.

I can guarantee you that mine wasn't a placebo effect, because the obvious drop in black levels after the tech replaced the A board and caused the factory reset is proof (too bad I don't have any calibration tools to provide measurements) And I can tell that they have gone up again because of the glow the set has that wasn't there a few weeks ago. You aren't the only one with a DUD.

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post #242 of 11255 Old 10-07-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Actually jeff, we do have further evidence that this issue is real; TomHuffMan experienced almost the exact same jump with his PZ80, which I believe is technically last year's G10. I don't have the link to Mr. Huffman's post, but I'm sure Orta has it as he was the one who posted it.

edit: actually I think TomHuffMan had (or has) an 85U, but regardless, it was a Panasonic.

Tom Huffman measured 0.007 ftL with a new 85U, 0.009 after about 50 hours use, and 0.018 ftL after 1962 hours.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=11905

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post #243 of 11255 Old 10-07-2009, 06:49 PM
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Thanks Larry. Yeah, almost the exact same jump as Orta.
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post #244 of 11255 Old 10-07-2009, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I don't think anyone really knows, but I've never seen anyone mention this problem on the S1 if that helps.

I have a 46S1. On the S1 forum I've discussed my concern over black levels. Wasn't until this thread was started that I thought maybe I was having the same issue.
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post #245 of 11255 Old 10-08-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I don't expect anything to happen about it to be honest. These model lines are well past mid cycle, all resources have almost assuredly shifted to the 2010's. They seem befuddled enough by the supposed THX fix--something that is well documented, easily proven/described, and affects every G10/V10 produced up to very recently. I know the professionals must have calibrated a ton of these displays, but none of them have ever mentioned anything about this. Only conclusion I can come to is that I just have a dud unit and "placebo-ed" a bunch of people into seeing the same. Unlike Tom's gradual shift over a very long period, this happened dramatically all at once, so I'm not sure how comparable the two situations really are.

When i mentioned this to Panasonic they assured me that they are sending it to the higher ups for further investigation. They also told me that they will get to the bottom of it. However, they didn't set me up with a service appointment so i don't know what the next step will be. I am surprised they didn't at least send someone out to take a look at it, perhaps they didn't understand exactly what i was saying. How did you bring this to their attention Orta?

I know i am not just seeing things, like i said before... the blacks on my set are no longer black, they are gray, and glow. Before the jump, my set had a nice deep shade of inky black.
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post #246 of 11255 Old 10-09-2009, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

I know i am not just seeing things, like i said before... the blacks on my set are no longer black, they are gray, and glow. Before the jump, my set had a nice deep shade of inky black.

Yeah, I remember comparing my g10 to my old 5020 Kuro as "very similar" when it came to the blacks, no way that I can make that comparison now.

I really hope that they can manage to fix this soon.

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post #247 of 11255 Old 10-11-2009, 06:10 PM
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I posted a problem with my black levels on here when orta first started the thread. Called panny they had me go through a reset process, i thought this fixed the issue but a few days later i noticed the increase again, so i tried the reset of the set again and nothing, so i called back but no fix. I began to think i was just seeing things but a week ago i went out and bought a 42" X1 for the bedroom, got it home set it up and imediatly saw a big difference in it and my g10, so i set them side by side the blacks are much better on the X1, this confirmed my initial impression that my black levels have risen dramatically, so im calling panny again tomorrow and telling them just what i posted and see if i can get someone out to look at the set and maybe find something else out about it. OH for those who would like to know i have around 2500 hrs on the g10 and maybe about 50hrs on the X1, but i still don't think the black levels should have risen that much with so few hours, maybe if i had 15000 or so hours........
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post #248 of 11255 Old 10-12-2009, 12:06 AM
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This thread has me very worried. I just bought a 42" G10 and I absolutely love it. The picture quality blows away my old Sony direct view HD CRT and my Samsung LN40B610 LCD, and it even looks better than my friends Samsung LED set overall.

However, if this problem is real and the black levels can be expected to rise that drastically I am seriously questioning whether I should keep the set or return it and get something else. The deeper blacks are one of the things I like most about this tv and they are largely the reason for the exceptional picture quality. If shortly the tv is just going to end up looking like an average LCD, then that defeats the whole point and I might as well choose another tv.

I know there is no way to know precisely how many people's sets this has affected, but are there G10 owners out there that haven't had their black levels rise? Maybe somebody could do a poll to give us a rough idea of what percentage of G10s are being affected by this issue.
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post #249 of 11255 Old 10-12-2009, 01:14 AM
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It won't look like an average LCD, even after the rise. ~0.018fL is still respectably low even for a Plasma and will still beat the majority of LCD's with an adequate backlight setting.
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post #250 of 11255 Old 10-12-2009, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai147 View Post

I posted a problem with my black levels on here when orta first started the thread. Called panny they had me go through a reset process, i thought this fixed the issue but a few days later i noticed the increase again, so i tried the reset of the set again and nothing, so i called back but no fix. I began to think i was just seeing things but a week ago i went out and bought a 42" X1 for the bedroom, got it home set it up and imediatly saw a big difference in it and my g10, so i set them side by side the blacks are much better on the X1, this confirmed my initial impression that my black levels have risen dramatically, so im calling panny again tomorrow and telling them just what i posted and see if i can get someone out to look at the set and maybe find something else out about it. OH for those who would like to know i have around 2500 hrs on the g10 and maybe about 50hrs on the X1, but i still don't think the black levels should have risen that much with so few hours, maybe if i had 15000 or so hours........

Thanks for the update Batt, I guess this problem really is what was on display in HDGuru's V10/G10 comparison.
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post #251 of 11255 Old 10-12-2009, 11:51 AM
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I few people in this thread have commented that this problem is imagined. I personally don't think it is but a good test just for peace of mind might be...


1) Get the 120 slide version of the break in slides (http://www.webapalooza.com/plasma/)
2) Slide 10 (v120_010_333333.jpg) should appear dark gray (LCD blackish)
3) Slide 11 (v120_011_000000.jpg) should appear completely pitch black. It should look as if your TV is off.

I realize that if you didn't pay attention to these two particular slides before the problem started happening then you have nothing to compare it to, but the difference between slide 10 vs. slide 11 should be night and day.

(I noted the image names in case your silde order happens to be different for some reason)
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post #252 of 11255 Old 10-12-2009, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Thanks for the update Batt, I guess this problem really is what was on display in HDGuru's V10/G10 comparison.

yeah, hdgurus pic was spot on, i havn't contacted panny yet but im fixing to if they have any new info i will post.....
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post #253 of 11255 Old 10-12-2009, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky_rocket View Post

1) Get the 120 slide version of the break in slides (http://www.webapalooza.com/plasma/)
2) Slide 10 (v120_010_333333.jpg) should appear dark gray (LCD blackish)
3) Slide 11 (v120_011_000000.jpg) should appear completely pitch black. It should look as if your TV is off.

I tried this procedure (on a p50g10, purchased June 09) and I did indeed see a huge difference between the two slides. I would hope so because slide 10 is VERY bright. Slide 11 does not quite look like the TV is off, though.
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post #254 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 02:37 PM
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Based on what I've read on some of the other threads, it seems like the black levels stabilize on Panasonics after a while. So, from those of you who have measured, do the MMLs seem to be stabilizing in the .017-.019fL range? I can live with those levels, but not with .04 or something. I'm wondering if it's time to grab a Pioneer while a few are still around...
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post #255 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaken134 View Post

Based on what I've read on some of the other threads, it seems like the black levels stabilize on Panasonics after a while. So, from those of you who have measured, do the MMLs seem to be stabilizing in the .017-.019fL range? I can live with those levels, but not with .04 or something. I'm wondering if it's time to grab a Pioneer while a few are still around...

I decided to check the ColorHCFR files of various 12G models in Larry's sig and found the following black levels (0% fL readings):

X1: .019 fL

G10: .009 fL

V10: .009 fL


Just to put things in perspective my PZ80 (not PZ85 with better native contrast):

PZ80: .019 fL at most current calibration

I have over 2,000 hrs on my set. I don't think my black levels ever rose as when the TV turns on it's bright grey then a darker grey. There is no third shade of grey.


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post #256 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 03:37 PM
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Just to add to what PlasmaPZ80U said: My 11G 50PX80U read about 0.015 to 0.016 ftL over a period of about 200 to 1500 hours of use. I took three sets of data during that time period.

My 12G 50X1 has varied from 0.016 to 0.017 to 0.019 ftL for readings taken at about 200, 900, and 1200 hours respectively. The black level readings are probably within the expected inherent range considering test condition variations.

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post #257 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 05:19 PM
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I just hooked up a brand new 50S1 for my sister last night, and noted her virgin blacks compared to my 6 month old 50G10...and it was like night and day... it was highly obvious with the naked eye, her blacks blew my older ones away. My PQ still looks pretty amazing but I'm not a very happy camper over my lessened black levels...I mean, I thought plasma's forte was the awesome deep, dark black levels???
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post #258 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 05:29 PM
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Wow, I had intially wrote this off as just bad sets.....but it is becoming blatantly clear that this will happen to basically everyones' 12g's?
There were three main points that made me buy a 12g:
1. Black levels
2. Contrast
3. Price

If #1 is going to raise above Sammy's and to lcd level, well I suppose I need to shop again and take back my 12g.

I appreciate everyone here posting.

This is a seperate issue than the old "floating blacks" Panny issue, correct?
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post #259 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Wow, I had intially wrote this off as just bad sets.....but it is becoming blatantly clear that this will happen to basically everyones' 12g's?
There were three main points that made me buy a 12g:
1. Black levels
2. Contrast
3. Price

If #1 is going to raise above Sammy's and to lcd level, well I suppose I need to shop again and take back my 12g.

I appreciate everyone here posting.

This is a seperate issue than the old "floating blacks" Panny issue, correct?

Looking at the 1" black strip around the screen, my 50G10's blacks are now dark grey and seem to have some white bleeding thru like some sort of lame backlighting...they are disconcertingly light looking while my sisters brand new 50S1 set has blacks that are almost as dark as the aforementioned dark strip....I fully may have well chosen a Sammy if I had known the Panny's blacks were going to deteriorate in such a fashion..I pray they can come up with a firmware fix for this travesty....I haven't tried the hard reset yet but will try it soon to see if I get any results and report back later.
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post #260 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 06:56 PM
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My 12g only has ~30 hrs on it so far. Can't even see the small black edge unless i walk up and look for it.
I'm sure I would notice a 2x raise if it does happen.
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post #261 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 07:09 PM
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Well phosphors do change during the lifetime of a plasma, usually requiring recalibration. Has everyone tried recalibrating their set to see if the black levels are improved? In other words, maybe the brightness or contrast setting needs to be adjusted once the phosphors have aged.
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post #262 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 07:35 PM
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Is there anyone out there other than Orta with a G10 with a few hundred hours who has a measured black level? I'm away from home for a while - I'll take new ones when I get back. But surely someone else can get actual measurements?

A lot of people here use free software to get their measurements - anyone know CalMan well enough to tell me the best specific pattern/measurement to use to ensure we're comparing apples to apples?
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post #263 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

Well phosphors do change during the lifetime of a plasma, usually requiring recalibration. Has everyone tried recalibrating their set to see if the black levels are improved? In other words, maybe the brightness or contrast setting needs to be adjusted once the phosphors have aged.

This is a somewhat valid point if the said calibration could somehow be performed by the inividual user of the set or a no brainer firmware upgrade from Panny...If your inferring that I have a prof. calibrator come out an adjust my basically new plasma for panny's subpar blacks and pay extra money....well, you don't even want me to go there considering what I paid for the set in the first place....
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post #264 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_fusion View Post

This is a somewhat valid point if the said calibration could somehow be performed by the inividual user of the set or a no brainer firmware upgrade from Panny...If your inferring that I have a prof. calibrator come out an adjust my basically new plasma for panny's subpar blacks and pay extra money....well, you don't even want me to go there considering what I paid for the set in the first place....

He means get a pluge pattern and display it on the screen. Does it show brightness as being to high? If so when brightness is properly set is the base level black still high?
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post #265 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_fusion View Post

This is a somewhat valid point if the said calibration could somehow be performed by the inividual user of the set or a no brainer firmware upgrade from Panny...If your inferring that I have a prof. calibrator come out an adjust my basically new plasma for panny's subpar blacks and pay extra money....well, you don't even want me to go there considering what I paid for the set in the first place....

Well not necessarily getting a pro calibrator, but maybe just adjusting the brightness level and see if the black levels improve. I used an i1 LT to self-calibrate my set which only costs about $100 so I can calibrate my set as much as I want. I'm sure it doesn't quite match a pro calibrator but I get pretty good results. But like I said, there's no need to get a pro to do it. Just adjust your brightness and maybe contrast levels and see if you notice any improvement, though it's mainly the brightness setting that alter your black levels.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

He means get a pluge pattern and display it on the screen. Does it show brightness as being to high? If so when brightness is properly set is the base level black still high?

Actually that's probably a better way to do it. Go into the display calibration forum here and they have good free patterns you can download.
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post #266 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Wow, I had intially wrote this off as just bad sets.....but it is becoming blatantly clear that this will happen to basically everyones' 12g's?
There were three main points that made me buy a 12g:
1. Black levels
2. Contrast
3. Price

If #1 is going to raise above Sammy's and to lcd level, well I suppose I need to shop again and take back my 12g.

I appreciate everyone here posting.

This is a seperate issue than the old "floating blacks" Panny issue, correct?

Samsung's 09 Plasma measurements are all over the place while Panasonic's 12G Plasmas seem pretty consistent. For example, at the shootout, the B860 measured 0.0229fL, but Citivas's B590 (I think it was) measured an impressive 0.008fL. Most seem to measure around the same level the 12G Panasonic's measure after the rise. And again, still considerably better than most LCD's.
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post #267 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Wow, I had intially wrote this off as just bad sets.....but it is becoming blatantly clear that this will happen to basically everyones' 12g's?

Again, we need some actual G10 measured values after some time; all we have right now is Orta's, unless I missed them.
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post #268 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 09:21 PM
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I am calling Panasonic first thing in the morning. I have 400hrs of use and i think my set has "settled" in, the light grayish blacks annoy me to no end. I feel the blacks on my set should be BLACK and not gray.
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post #269 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoof15 View Post

I will call tomorrow and get a case number as well. Mine are not deep blacks like there previously were but that changed for me a while ago, I am at roughly 700hrs use. Just like the THX issue, the more people that call and get assigned a case number, the more likely they are to fix it, hopefully..

Yeah, don't know exactly how i am going to bring it up though, I tried once before but i don't think they quite understood what i was saying.
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post #270 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 09:34 PM
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To add one more bit of data: The 42X1 that D-Nice calibrated measured 0.0157 ftL -- with an extremely expensive PR-655 spectroradiometer.

Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I decided to check the ColorHCFR files of various 12G models in Larry's sig and found the following black levels (0% fL readings):

X1: .019 fL

G10: .009 fL

V10: .009 fL


Just to put things in perspective my PZ80 (not PZ85 with better native contrast):

PZ80: .019 fL at most current calibration

I have over 2,000 hrs on my set. I don't think my black levels ever rose as when the TV turns on it's bright grey then a darker grey. There is no third shade of grey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Just to add to what PlasmaPZ80U said: My 11G 50PX80U read about 0.015 to 0.016 ftL over a period of about 200 to 1500 hours of use. I took three sets of data during that time period.

My 12G 50X1 has varied from 0.016 to 0.017 to 0.019 ftL for readings taken at about 200, 900, and 1200 hours respectively. The black level readings are probably within the expected inherent range considering test condition variations.

Larry

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