Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 97 - AVS Forum
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post #2881 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

You're right I guess. But if there is any light on the screen, those numbers shoot way up. Correct?

Technically in vivid mode, with infinite black, light output is zero as well with a black screen input.

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When we first measured the Samsung UN46B6000's black level we got a reading of .02 candelas per meter squared (cd/m2), which is incredibly low. We noticed, however, that the UN46B6000's backlight seemed to turn itself down dynamically when an all black screen was displayed, probably a power-saving feature. When we did our tunnel contrast test, however, with black sharing the screen with varying amounts of white we saw the black level rise up to between .10 to .12 cd/m2. Because this better reflects the black level that viewers will actually get while watching content we decided to ignore the black level reading of .02 cd/m2 and go with the lowest number we saw in our tunnel contrast testing, which was .10 cd/m2.

Source: http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...mp;-Whites.htm
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post #2882 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthurking View Post

I also doubt that V5100 can have a black level as good as XBR9.

The v5100 has a black lvl of .09 about 2 times higher than the panasoinic plasma.

None of the posted black lvls that were posted in the previous post is near correct.

The closest LCD's to a panny plasma is about 2 times higher black level (worse).
I have no idea who they think they are fooling but those numbers are laughable.
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post #2883 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Warrior668 View Post

Source: http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...mp;-Whites.htm

Exactly. With content on screen, it is better than 90%+ of leds. CNET claims that only the 8500 led and kuro has darker blacks.
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post #2884 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

The v5100 has a black lvl of .09 about 2 times higher than the panasoinic plasma.

None of the posted black lvls that were posted in the previous post is near correct.

The closest LCD's to a panny plasma is about 2 times higher black level (worse).
I have no idea who they think they are fooling but those numbers are laughable.

Blank screen input. With the infinite black feature, the panel is shut off, with ZERO light output, similar to the turning off of leds.
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post #2885 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 02:40 PM
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That is local dimming feature. Like it or not, both 8500 and 6000 have this feature. It is another story if you are talking about the perceived blackness.

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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Exactly. With content on screen, it is better than 90%+ of leds. CNET claims that only the 8500 led and kuro has darker blacks.

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post #2886 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 02:50 PM
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Hmm the reply by Panasonic on CNET is not encouraging. Sounds like they are saying it does this by design and will not be fixed. The 2010 tv's sound like they will have a less aggressive increase in voltage. My guess is the firmwares would be similar so why not update the 2009 firmwares to have less aggressive voltage increases. Oh well. I'm pretty sure my blacks were awesome about the first week I had my G10. In a total blacked out room my blacks look bright and gray now. However, with just one light on the blacks look great and the picture still looks great. Still the best bang for the buck tv your gonna find right now.
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post #2887 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 02:59 PM
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Hadn't bought a TV in 10 years, and I picked a 50G10 as my first big investment. Talk about disappointing news, now I'll just be constantly waiting for when this is going to happen to mine. I had 2 good friends lined up to buy Panasonic Plasmas based on my recommendation. That sucked calling them both just now to tell them both to forget about Panny and get Samsung Plasmas, or just suffer with LCD.

Boom
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post #2888 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by degobah77 View Post

Hadn't bought a TV in 10 years, and I picked a 50G10 as my first big investment. Talk about disappointing news, now I'll just be constantly waiting for when this is going to happen to mine. I had 2 good friends lined up to buy Panasonic Plasmas based on my recommendation. That sucked calling them both just now to tell them both to forget about Panny and get Samsung Plasmas, or just suffer with LCD.

tell them to buy a Pioneer KRP-500m if they can find one
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post #2889 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nascar Dog View Post

.008 - .012 is very high = gray blacks. They should be embarrassed.
.001 = black

typical fanboy...no use to talking to you....

to be dead honest, I had a pro 141 that measured round .003-.004... so the difference was really not noticeble at all on my v10 in my HT..and for a difference of .004, i was able to save 4000K(this was before they went under when I bought my 141)

So i hope you not saying your 50 inch is better than my 58inch.. when its that close bigger is better.. if you have a krp-600m than power to you. thats an excellent TV given the current price. But you have to stop with the fan boy stuff because most KURO FANS(theres a difference) think your a joke..

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #2890 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by arthurking View Post

That is local dimming feature. Like it or not, both 8500 and 6000 have this feature. It is another story if you are talking about the perceived blackness.

Not really percieved. Tunnel contrast. The black level cannot maintain these low level (sub <.08) readings on led's, with the exception of the extra pricey samsung 8500.(Cheapest price for 55 inch is 3500) New LED's coming out this year will feature something like 512 dimmable zones. But a perfect LED would need 2.1 million zones, one for every pixel. So LED will always be flawed compared to a plasma like the Kuro for at least the next 5+ years, if ever or until OLED becomes mainstream. (The sony oled measure 0.0 black level, even with content on screen), and is said to be perceivable to the eye as being MUCH darker than the Kuro.

Thanks for that link Warrior668
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post #2891 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:16 PM
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David(CNet),

Thank you! for your inquiries and update on this issue
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post #2892 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Cody1811 View Post

I e-mailed Bono.

Because you still haven't found what you are looking for?!
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i emailed geraldo rivera.

lmao!
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post #2894 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:26 PM
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Maybe we can have a few test subjects. What I mean is guys with meters can go to measure some various sets that might be nearby. Then return in a few months to check the levels again. I'm in So.Cal if anyone wants to do a test in the name of science. So far my blacks are still great. V10 owner, I can verify the hours, but i'm thinking i'm over 500, under 1k. PM me if care to help the forum members out.
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post #2895 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:27 PM
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because you still haven't found what you are looking for?!


Exactly! LOL. I was hoping he would write a song about our plight.
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post #2896 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:30 PM
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exactly! lol.

Another time, another place my friend.
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post #2897 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:34 PM
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What the hell is happening to the Great Japanese manufacturing companies. First Toyota, Honda, Sony, all turning out shoddier products than they used to do, and just trying to BS the customers, instead of maintain good production standards and customer service.

Now we have Panasonic doing the same thing. That reply to Cnet is disgusting, and it is going to scare off a lot of potential customers, who would be considering purchasing a 2010 Panasonic Plasma. How can one take a chance on something, that they will not find out for sure if it is going to suffer from the same deterioration in black levels, and increase in IR , until after the manufacturer's warranty period has expired.

The part where Panasonic stated that even though the black levels have become just gray level, it still has an excellent picture, is really the last straw. The only thing that the 2009 Panasonic plasmas had going for them was deeper black levels than the competition. In all the other areas, such as color accuracy, and CMS tools, Panasonic was not in the same ballpark as Samsung or LG.

They have really shot their selves in the foot with their response. They know that the sets are defective, so a recall is required.

All of you who have one of those sets should get in touch with the federal consumer protection agency, and raise a stink.

Do not let Panasonic get away with their attempt to make you put up with a product that they have admitted has a serious defect.
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post #2898 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

What the hell is happening to the Great Japanese manufacturing companies. First Toyota, Honda, Sony, all turning out shoddier products than they used to do, and just trying to BS the customers, instead of maintain good production standards and customer service.

Now we have Panasonic doing the same thing. That reply to Cnet is disgusting, and it is going to scare off a lot of potential customers, who would be considering purchasing a 2010 Panasonic Plasma. How can one take a chance on something, that they will not find out for sure if it is going to suffer from the same deterioration in black levels, and increase in IR , until after the manufacturer's warranty period has expired.

The part where Panasonic stated that even though the black levels have become just gray level, it still has an excellent picture, is really the last straw. The only thing that the 2009 Panasonic plasmas had going for them was deeper black levels than the competition. In all the other areas, such as color accuracy, and CMS tools, Panasonic was not in the same ballpark as Samsung or LG.

They have really shot their selves in the foot with their response. They know that the sets are defective, so a recall is required.

All of you who have one of those sets should get in touch with the federal consumer protection agency, and raise a stink. Perfect summary of the situation.

Do not let Panasonic get away with their attempt to make you put up with a product that they have admitted has a serious defect.

This is the best post in this this thread since actual measurements have been posted. This is exactly the problem. People can't settle for crap.
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post #2899 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

What the hell is happening to the Great Japanese manufacturing companies. First Toyota, Honda, Sony, all turning out shoddier products than they used to do, and just trying to BS the customers, instead of maintain good production standards and customer service.

Now we have Panasonic doing the same thing. That reply to Cnet is disgusting, and it is going to scare off a lot of potential customers, who would be considering purchasing a 2010 Panasonic Plasma. How can one take a chance on something, that they will not find out for sure if it is going to suffer from the same deterioration in black levels, and increase in IR , until after the manufacturer's warranty period has expired.

The part where Panasonic stated that even though the black levels have become just gray level, it still has an excellent picture, is really the last straw. The only thing that the 2009 Panasonic plasmas had going for them was deeper black levels than the competition. In all the other areas, such as color accuracy, and CMS tools, Panasonic was not in the same ballpark as Samsung or LG.

They have really shot their selves in the foot with their response. They know that the sets are defective, so a recall is required.

All of you who have one of those sets should get in touch with the federal consumer protection agency, and raise a stink.

Do not let Panasonic get away with their attempt to make you put up with a product that they have admitted has a serious defect.

I beg to differ on color accuracy on my v10's THX mode. Its completely accurate in terms of color. There are reports on here that prove my point. I have a LG LED which i love in the bedroom but samsung is the worst company when it comes to ethic standards. Dont even compare samsung and panasonic in this regard. For all we know that reply could have been from antoine.. how come I can still call panasonic and talk to an engineer that still says there are working on it with no apparent fix and the moment and CNET states that there is nothing going to happen. What if they can not find a problem so far. Lets say they tested 100 sets and none have the issue like mine. How are they suppose to just fix it? can you explain. These types of issue, when there are isolated(thats what its seems to be) are hard to fix and send firmware. I knew before buying this TV that blacks after years will lighted and so fars thats what is happening. I have 1000+ and still same levels. If this changes a year or 2 away I am ok with that as long as it does not double. Now for the people who have an issue they should just either refund you the set(pending you can prove it has a problem) or give you a new one.

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #2900 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I beg to differ on color accuracy on my v10's THX mode. Its completely accurate in terms of color. There are reports on here that prove my point. I have a LG LED which i love in the bedroom but samsung is the worst company when it comes to ethic standards. Dont even compare samsung and panasonic in this regard. For all we know that reply could have been from antoine.. how come I can still call panasonic and talk to an engineer that still says there are working on it with no apparent fix and the moment and CNET states that there is nothing going to happen. What if they can not find a problem so far. Lets say they tested 100 sets and none have the issue like mine. How are they suppose to just fix it? can you explain. These types of issue, when there are isolated(thats what its seems to be) are hard to fix and send firmware. I knew before buying this TV that blacks after years will lighted and so fars thats what is happening. I have 1000+ and still same levels. If this changes a year or 2 away I am ok with that as long as it does not double. Now for the people who have an issue they should just either refund you the set(pending you can prove it has a problem) or give you a new one.

I'd take a free S2 if this is indeed a rare problem Not that it would ever happen You seem pretty confident that your set isn;t affected. I can admit when I;m wrong, and it looks like I am about the fact that all sets are affected. Just was sure of it when D-Nice said it affected all models.
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post #2901 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

What the hell is happening to the Great Japanese manufacturing companies. First Toyota, Honda, Sony, all turning out shoddier products than they used to do, and just trying to BS the customers, instead of maintain good production standards and customer service.

Now we have Panasonic doing the same thing. That reply to Cnet is disgusting, and it is going to scare off a lot of potential customers, who would be considering purchasing a 2010 Panasonic Plasma. How can one take a chance on something, that they will not find out for sure if it is going to suffer from the same deterioration in black levels, and increase in IR , until after the manufacturer's warranty period has expired.

The part where Panasonic stated that even though the black levels have become just gray level, it still has an excellent picture, is really the last straw. The only thing that the 2009 Panasonic plasmas had going for them was deeper black levels than the competition. In all the other areas, such as color accuracy, and CMS tools, Panasonic was not in the same ballpark as Samsung or LG.

They have really shot their selves in the foot with their response. They know that the sets are defective, so a recall is required.

All of you who have one of those sets should get in touch with the federal consumer protection agency, and raise a stink.

Do not let Panasonic get away with their attempt to make you put up with a product that they have admitted has a serious defect.

I agree. I don't know how they're getting away with this.

Although the blacks on my '09 Panasonic aren't nearly as grey as the pics in the first post of this topic, they have definitely gotten lighter. The sidebars were solid black when I first got the TV. They blended in with the bezel. Now they're much lighter. The blacks in my video games are also lighter. All blacks are lighter no matter what I'm watching.

Maybe someone should start a thread dedicated to making Panasonic do something about this rather than simply discussing it. Put up links, etc. we can use to make something happen.

I hate it when a company justifies something by telling the consumer, "It's normal". No, it's not "normal" for an expensive piece of electronics to suddenly change. And the techs are apparently trained to lie to their customers and make them think there is no problem when the customer knows for a fact that there is.

I will never buy another Panasonic product. Ever. I don't know how they were crowned the king of plasma with this kind of BS going on. I wish I saved some money and bought an LG.
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Damn we got owned panasonic %$^%$%%^&%^&$#uck
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post #2903 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 04:04 PM
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And sadly, it seems there aren't enough people who are aware or observant enough to make a recall a reality. People in the know just have to eat it I guess and boycott Panasonic products in the future.

It was an expensive mistake that I'll never make again. In the future I'll come here and do some research before buying any television. Apparently reviews (on which I based my purchase) are worthless since they are reviewing new products, not those that have been used for a couple months. I could have gotten an LCD with better blacks than this.
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post #2904 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

I can admit when I;m wrong, and it looks like I am about the fact that all sets are affected. Just was sure of it when D-Nice said it affected all models.

Hehe, well, "all sets" is not the same as "all models".

It may affect all models, but it doesn't mean all sets in all models are affected... but there are sets in all models that are affected... get it? :P

Right now I'm at over 600 hours and still okay. Paranoid a time bomb will go off at 1,000 though. *crossing my fingers and toes*

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #2905 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 04:06 PM
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People who think that they got a set that is not affected are just deluding their selves. Panasonic told Cnet, in writing, that their automatic brightness adjustment feature is set too aggressively in the 2009 models.
They say that the new models will "apply the voltage adjustments, in smaller increments". There is your smoking gun.

Read it for yourselves. No need to start lying to yourselves, and just try to whistle while passing the graveyard.
At the very least, Panasonic should issue a firmware download that will adust the voltage increments to the level they claim they have put in the 2010 models.


http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...CmoreStories.0

"
As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value. After several years of typical use, the internal material characteristics will stabilize and no additional automatic voltage adjustments are required. The Black Level at this stabilized point will yield excellent picture performance.
The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time."
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I emailed Bill Gates

I e-mailed Oprah.
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post #2907 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

People who think that they got a set that is not affected are just deluding their selves. Panasonic told Cnet, in writing, that their automatic brightness adjustment feature is set too aggressively in the 2009 models.
They say that the new models will "apply the voltage adjustments, in smaller increments". There is your smoking gun.

even with what they said, we have no idea of knowing whether these changes are uniform or vary depending on the set. that would go towards explaining why it's plain as day to some people and others either aren't sure or think it looks the same. whether it's another defect or just bad luck that some people are getting really bad IR and sudden jumps is anyone's guess.

I say this as someone with a 50s1 that has my fingers crossed it doesn't exhibit a large change. If it does, I'll be calling panasonic.

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post #2908 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

People who think that they got a set that is not affected are just deluding their selves. Panasonic told Cnet, in writing, that their automatic brightness adjustment feature is set too aggressively in the 2009 models.
They say that the new models will "apply the voltage adjustments, in smaller increments". There is your smoking gun.

Read it for yourselves. No need to start lying to yourselves, and just try to whistle while passing the graveyard.
At the very least, Panasonic should issue a firmware download that will adust the voltage increments to the level they claim they have put in the 2010 models.


http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...CmoreStories.0

"
As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value. After several years of typical use, the internal material characteristics will stabilize and no additional automatic voltage adjustments are required. The Black Level at this stabilized point will yield excellent picture performance.
The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time."

So they're admitting that they put out a defective product, but saying, "It's OK because the 2010 models will be more gradual."? Can something be legally done about this? I don't remember this being in the sales pitch when I bought my TV.

As I said, my black levels aren't "grey", but they're not black any longer either. Not at all.

I take it by that statement all Panasonic plasmas will lighten. Again, I'll be staying away from them forever. It would be like buying a surround sound system with excellent audio quality, but the company didn't tell you the sound would turn to **** after a couple months of use. "Aw, shucks. We forgot to tell you the sound would degrade shortly after you gave use your $1000. It's normal, by the way. My bad. After a few years of use it won't get any worse, so don't worry."
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post #2909 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I beg to differ on color accuracy on my v10's THX mode. Its completely accurate in terms of color.

You do know there are 10 firmwares with new PEAKS values to fix THX coming out, right ?

So that right should tell you a lot of people are affected.

Just consider yourself lucky.
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post #2910 of 11240 Old 02-04-2010, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Hehe, well, "all sets" is not the same as "all models".

It may affect all models, but it doesn't mean all sets in all models are affected... but there are sets in all models that are affected... get it? :P

Right now I'm at over 600 hours and still okay. Paranoid a time bomb will go off at 1,000 though. *crossing my fingers and toes*

Thank you for understanding....Dnice never said all sets, he said all 11-12g models.. I know for a fact it is not affected. If I can read between .006-.008 on my set and thats considered doubled, then I have a problem. HA

PSN: Biggsmooth
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