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post #181 of 536 Old 09-27-2009, 10:00 AM
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Great thread Chad!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #182 of 536 Old 09-27-2009, 10:26 AM
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WOW the S1 numbers are not good. Chad have you done the 65"S1? Also can it look as good as a G10? i just cant afford to get 65"v10. Thanks.

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post #183 of 536 Old 09-27-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxjazz View Post

Chad,

Have you been able to do anything in regards to the dimmness of the THX mode? I remember from the Cnet review that David thought that could possibly be addressed in the service menu, but I have not heard anything to substantiate that claim. Here is the quote from Cnet- "Our calibration of the TC-PG10 series boiled down to switching the picture mode to THX. In its default settings, we found THX was dimmer than we'd like to see (28.3 footlamberts) and since contrast was already pegged at max, we couldn't equalize light output to our nominal level of 40ftl utilizing user-menu controls. A calibration that accessed the service menu could increase light output in THX mode, but we don't perform such calibrations as part of our TV reviews. We also appreciated the accurate gamma in THX, which measured 2.25 versus the standard of 2.2."

It sounds like the color decoding errors in THX mode are being addressed, at least in the newer V10s (still unclear if there is a fix for current V10 or G10 owners). However many are finding the THX mode too dim to watch even at night. Will you please weigh in on what you have been able to do to address the low light output. Thank you!

After Chad finished calibrating my 58V10 it would up at 37 FL in THX mode. This is more than enough for my light-controlled viewing conditions.
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post #184 of 536 Old 09-27-2009, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by T Morris View Post

After Chad finished calibrating my 58V10 it would up at 37 FL in THX mode. This is more than enough for my light-controlled viewing conditions.

Thank you!
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post #185 of 536 Old 09-27-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ser182 View Post

WOW the S1 numbers are not good. Chad have you done the 65"S1? Also can it look as good as a G10? i just cant afford to get 65"v10. Thanks.

If I'm following this correctly, if you look back at the original numbers (thanks HiFiFun), the calibrated G10 only outscored the calibrated S1 in the color category (4 vs 5 rating), everything else was equal. So the jump in the color rating from 5 to 10 on the G10 is based on the assumption that the THX mode will have a firmware fix (although the firmware has not been confirmed, just the new V10s have it fixed). That assumed fix also bumped the shadow detail rating up by 1 point.

If you read back through the thread, Chad said he thought the S1 could be calibrated to look as good as the calibrated G10 (see Chad's post #60 in this thread), but that was before the recent THX mode improvement. Thus to get those higher, new numbers you need a G10 or V10 with THX and have the firmware fix.
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post #186 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 10:33 AM
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(Posting this in threads where people are speculating on the 1.25 firmware)

OK - so I sent Panasonic an email and told them about the speculation on the 1.25 firmware, and whether it addressed the THX color issue and any other issues.

Their answer:

"Dear Dr. Lackey

Thank you for your inquiry.

The firmware you are referring to was released in the U.K. and the
firmware in the U.S. is just a board update firmware to help prevent
certain error codes.

Thank you for contacting Panasonic.

Thank You,
Panasonic Consumer Support"

Very disappointing.
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post #187 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

(Posting this in threads where people are speculating on the 1.25 firmware)

OK - so I sent Panasonic an email and told them about the speculation on the 1.25 firmware, and whether it addressed the THX color issue and any other issues.

Their answer:

"Dear Dr. Lackey

Thank you for your inquiry.

The firmware you are referring to was released in the U.K. and the
firmware in the U.S. is just a board update firmware to help prevent
certain error codes.

Thank you for contacting Panasonic.

Thank You,
Panasonic Consumer Support"

Very disappointing.

Not sure how to interpret that response from Panasonic. If you read into that they indeed do have a THX fix in the UK, but not the US, that would be really odd since the G10s and G15s sold over there don't even have a THX mode (the V10s do however).
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post #188 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxjazz View Post

Not sure how to interpret that response from Panasonic. If you read into that they indeed do have a THX fix in the UK, but not the US, that would be really odd since the G10s and G15s sold over there don't even have a THX mode (the V10s do however).

In my question to them (limited to 600 words) I told them that there was speculation that the 1.25 update may have a fix for the color decoding issues and yellow/green "tint" in THX mode and could they please ask their technical experts what this update actually addresses. So yeah, it does seem to imply that there is a UK update for the THX issue, the way they stated it. But they very clearly state that the U.S. version does NOT do that.

Assuming they know what they are talking about, but they are specific enough in the reply that I assume they do.
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post #189 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

OK - so I sent Panasonic an email and told them about the speculation on the 1.25 firmware, and whether it addressed the THX color issue and any other issues.

was that email from a regular CSR or some deeper level tech?

the front end CSRs don't seem to have a clue at all. They've given pretty much every possible reply to inquiries by people in this topic. They seem to be replying with the scan improvement fix for those limited models or the handshake fix....no matter what someone inquires about.
________________________

It might be worth making tickets for the THX issue just to get Panasonic to push out the fix for everyone. (If it's some sort of software related tweak anyways.)

I'm just not sure I would expect any real answer or fix right away.
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post #190 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by speck9 View Post

was that email from a regular CSR or some deeper level tech?

the front end CSRs don't seem to have a clue at all. They've given pretty much every possible reply to inquiries by people in this topic. They seem to be replying with the scan improvement fix for those limited models or the handshake fix....no matter what someone inquires about.
________________________

It might be worth making tickets for the THX issue just to get Panasonic to push out the fix for everyone. (If it's some sort of software related tweak anyways.)

I'm just not sure I would expect any real fix right away.

It was sent in to the Panasonic web site inquiry page. I told them what was being speculated, and asked if whoever read this inquiry could please ask someone at a technical level who would know for sure what the 1.25 firmware addressed.

Normally when I ask a question (a couple of times) via that site, I get an answer in less than a day. This time it took a couple of days - I assumed they actually asked someone. Particularly since they mentioned a specific update in the U.K. that I had not mentioned, and specifics on the 1.25 U.S. release I had mentioned.

But I agree - if we could get a LOT of inquiries on the THX color coding issues, etc. I think it would increase the odds of at least getting someone's attention.
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post #191 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 11:42 AM
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Why not just get one person to get the update and share it with all here.

Didnt I read correctly that someone was already successful in having the update sent out, and he would recieve it 7 days later. He could easily attach it to a email and file sharing site for all to use.

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post #192 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Daekwan View Post

Why not just get one person to get the update and share it with all here.

Didnt I read correctly that someone was already successful in having the update sent out, and he would recieve it 7 days later. He could easily attach it to a email and file sharing site for all to use.

I don't think the issue is getting the update. All you have to do is ask Panasonic and they'll send it to you.

The issue is what it does. According the the communication I got from Panasonic, it doesn't fix any of the issues we're looking to get improved.
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post #193 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The color correction is already in production. Anyone with a 58V10 or 65V10 should already have the color correction. As far as this update improving the grayscale, I'm not sure nor does anyone at Panasonic state that it does. I've calibrated 2 65V10s in the past 1.5 weeks and both had the "good" THX mode but the grayscale performance was very different between the two.

I'll see if I can find out what is going on with the newer batches of Panasonics and, hopefully, relay that information to you guys.

Hi D-Nice,

Any further details like if this "color correction" for "good THX mode" will be available for other V10's. E.g. 50 & 54"? And if so, how someone could go about getting it?

Samsung PN60F8500, Panasonic TH-42PD25U/P, Pioneer VSX-1018TXH-K, Oppo BDP-93, Aperion Audio 5T&5C, HSU STF-2, PS3, Wii, HTPC, SD Homerun Prime, Ceton Echo
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post #194 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by caeguy View Post

Hi D-Nice,

Any further details like if this "color correction" for "good THX mode" will be available for other V10's. E.g. 50 & 54"? And if so, how someone could go about getting it?

Nope


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post #195 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 02:58 PM
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Thanks for the charts, Chad!

I have a question - you mention 'pumping' as an artifact of the ABL etc on your page. I think I have some of that. When there's a scene with lots of bright spots against a dark background (like sunlight gleaming off of leaves on a tree with a dark background (BBC Planet earth stuff)) - there is a 'pumping' going on where you can see the bright spots 'flashing'. I don't know what the proper terms are, but is there a way to compensate for this? I have a sammy 58b560.
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post #196 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Morris View Post

After Chad finished calibrating my 58V10 it would up at 37 FL in THX mode. This is more than enough for my light-controlled viewing conditions.

Umm, if by going into the SM you can squeeze as much as 37 fL out of THX mode...then why oh why is it the calibrators at the shootout ran the 50V10 at only a little more than 25 fL, nearly 10 fL dimmer than the rest of the sets, which were running at 35 fL?

This clearly hurt the V10 in the contest. When you have a wall of displays running at 35 fL in the contest, and then one display at a lower output of only 25+ fL, it is going to appear dimmer/duller than the rest.

Perhaps some compromises in accuracy had to be made by ChadB to squeeze the 37 fL output in THX mode? If there are no real compromises that must take place to achieve 35 fL, then there is no excuse why the calibrator(s) at the shootout could not have gone into the SM and increased the peak luminance to the same level as all the other displays, to level the playing field.

Of course, the sponsor of the shootout did order a large number of KRP's to sell, and it wouldn't hurt sales if the gap between the V10 and the 500M appeared to be larger than it really is, right???

Perhaps ChadB could advise on how much peak output can be acheived in THX mode on the V10's while still maintaining reasonable accuracy.
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post #197 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 03:13 PM
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Hey guys, I didn't get the HDMI FW today to try in the off chance it does something. The Panasonic field rep that was scheduled to come farmed the trouble call out to a local repair shop and (apparently) failed to include any details of the issue and no firmware. They called the rep and he does have the firmware and will be emailing it to them. He told them it goes public this week, which is presumably why your CS emails have all given that vague time frame in lieu of just emailing it right away. I have no idea why they scheduled a house call for a FW update in the first place.
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post #198 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 04:20 PM
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DocuMaker;

I'm more inclined to believe that it has more to do with the fact that mine was the first set that he has seen that had the improved THX performance - and is the reason for the rankings update. However I certainly won't speculate on the reasons beyond that as that's all I know for sure.
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post #199 of 536 Old 09-28-2009, 09:08 PM
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I called panasonic earlier today and ask them about the 1.25 update and was wanting to know how to get it since it wasn't showing up on the viera cast network, the rep said we'll send it to you in the mail via sd card, said it would be here within 2 to 7 days. now i didn't go into any detail as to what the firmware does specifically but guess i'll find out as soon as it arrives....
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post #200 of 536 Old 09-29-2009, 05:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Umm, if by going into the SM you can squeeze as much as 37 fL out of THX mode...then why oh why is it the calibrators at the shootout ran the 50V10 at only a little more than 25 fL, nearly 10 fL dimmer than the rest of the sets, which were running at 35 fL?

Home Theater Magazine's face-off dumbed down all the LCD's to 26fl too so they could use the Panasonic G10 in Thx mode. No wonder the Panasonic won.

However they have begun to report viewing with some ambient light (imagine that!) in the room. Here the Panasonic washed out and would have place last. But the scoring was only for the black room. Maybe next years tests will have two separate ratings if Shane can overcome Tom's hard-headed, deeply ingrained bias.
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post #201 of 536 Old 09-29-2009, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by battousai147 View Post

I called panasonic earlier today and ask them about the 1.25 update and was wanting to know how to get it since it wasn't showing up on the viera cast network, the rep said we'll send it to you in the mail via sd card, said it would be here within 2 to 7 days. now i didn't go into any detail as to what the firmware does specifically but guess i'll find out as soon as it arrives....

You saw my post earlier where they described what it does and does not do, right?
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post #202 of 536 Old 09-29-2009, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

You saw my post earlier where they described what it does and does not do, right?

I must have over looked it but i will look it up now thanks............
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post #203 of 536 Old 09-29-2009, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Umm, if by going into the SM you can squeeze as much as 37 fL out of THX mode...then why oh why is it the calibrators at the shootout ran the 50V10 at only a little more than 25 fL, nearly 10 fL dimmer than the rest of the sets, which were running at 35 fL?

This clearly hurt the V10 in the contest. When you have a wall of displays running at 35 fL in the contest, and then one display at a lower output of only 25+ fL, it is going to appear dimmer/duller than the rest.

Perhaps some compromises in accuracy had to be made by ChadB to squeeze the 37 fL output in THX mode? If there are no real compromises that must take place to achieve 35 fL, then there is no excuse why the calibrator(s) at the shootout could not have gone into the SM and increased the peak luminance to the same level as all the other displays, to level the playing field.

Of course, the sponsor of the shootout did order a large number of KRP's to sell, and it wouldn't hurt sales if the gap between the V10 and the 500M appeared to be larger than it really is, right???

Perhaps ChadB could advise on how much peak output can be acheived in THX mode on the V10's while still maintaining reasonable accuracy.

Well, I can say there was no compromise involved getting it from T Morris's set. There is some sample to sample variation; I know when I was doing a lot of 800us I would get anywhere from about 33-40 fL in THX mode. I think the smaller panels averaged higher than the larger panels, but that's just a generalization.
I can't say how the variation is in the V10's though, because his set was the first V10 I've run across that I actually calibrated the THX mode (because of the color issues).
Keep in mind there can be a little difference between meters (a few percent easily), and a little difference due to possible measurement window size differences (I use small windows; large windows would have lower luminance because they trigger the ABL in plasmas).

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post #204 of 536 Old 09-29-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post

Being that you sit a mile away from your TV set, IMO, it would be foolish not to get the 65 inch. Also, if you look around, the 65V10 can be had for under $3k,that way you can stay with the V series and still gain the 7 inches over the 58. But, whatever you do, get a 65 inch, be it the S or the V.

And, from what I'm told, the S1 Calibrated will be within %95 of the picture quality of the V10.

I strongly second that. I sit 11-12" and got a 58S1. I was upgrading from a 50" and never really considered the 65. In part because of price, in part because of aesthetics, and in part because I didn't think I would value the extra acreage.

I somewhat regret it and am vaguely thinking about returning the 58 to get the 65. Mostly, I don't want to go through the hassle of boxing up the 58. The diff in price would be 600-700. If I had it to do all over again, I would probably go with the 65.

And although several people keep saying that the 65V10 can be had for less than 3k, I have never found it that low, and even at 3k, that's still 600 more than the S1. Is it worth it? Seems to be in the eye of the beholder. For most people, I don't think the V10 would be worth the extra.
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post #205 of 536 Old 09-29-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Hey guys, I didn't get the HDMI FW today to try in the off chance it does something. The Panasonic field rep that was scheduled to come farmed the trouble call out to a local repair shop and (apparently) failed to include any details of the issue and no firmware. They called the rep and he does have the firmware and will be emailing it to them. He told them it goes public this week, which is presumably why your CS emails have all given that vague time frame in lieu of just emailing it right away. I have no idea why they scheduled a house call for a FW update in the first place.

Orta, if the firmware does in fact go 'public' this week, how can the rest of us get it? DL off the Panny service site Larry linked to previously? Vieracast? Or do we have to request it via CS?

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post #206 of 536 Old 09-29-2009, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Well, I can say there was no compromise involved getting it from T Morris's set. There is some sample to sample variation; I know when I was doing a lot of 800us I would get anywhere from about 33-40 fL in THX mode. I think the smaller panels averaged higher than the larger panels, but that's just a generalization.
I can't say how the variation is in the V10's though, because his set was the first V10 I've run across that I actually calibrated the THX mode (because of the color issues).
Keep in mind there can be a little difference between meters (a few percent easily), and a little difference due to possible measurement window size differences (I use small windows; large windows would have lower luminance because they trigger the ABL in plasmas).

Everything you post is perfectly worded and full of factual information.

For example when measuring plasma brightness the percentage of the white pattern must be stated "because they trigger the ABL in plasmas".
No one here has even had the common sense to state this. Otherwise they are meaningless and not too Darn-Nice.

You and Cleveland have provided the most valuable information (first breaking yet competent measurements and critical observations) out of all the calibrators and dealers. Please continue as you guys are an excellent reference point to help sort through the spin.

Thank you!
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post #207 of 536 Old 09-30-2009, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Well, I can say there was no compromise involved getting it from T Morris's set. There is some sample to sample variation; I know when I was doing a lot of 800us I would get anywhere from about 33-40 fL in THX mode. I think the smaller panels averaged higher than the larger panels, but that's just a generalization.
I can't say how the variation is in the V10's though, because his set was the first V10 I've run across that I actually calibrated the THX mode (because of the color issues).
Keep in mind there can be a little difference between meters (a few percent easily), and a little difference due to possible measurement window size differences (I use small windows; large windows would have lower luminance because they trigger the ABL in plasmas).

I had decided to wait until next year to see if they had the bugs worked out on the THX mode, but the firmware fix possibility got me back in the game. I need a 46" and as we know the V10 does not come in that size, so that left me with the G10 (or even S1). Chad's mention of the 800U (and re-reading Cnets review) reminded me of just how good those sets are so I checked into finding one.

Most everyone is out of 800Us, except for a few online dealers that are questionable. Just for the ell of it, I checked into the availability and pricing on last years top of the line 850Us and found them to be about the same price as the new G10s. Both amazon and 6ave are still carrying them, so I ordered one today from amazon. While the 850U does not have THX, it does have a studio reference mode, pro adjustments, and digital cinema color capability which I think I will like. It also doesn't have any silver trim!

Not trying to talk anyone into the 850U, just got fed up with the issues on the 2009 models and decided not to wait.


Update: Looks like I got the last one from Amazon. They now say it ships from and sold through 6ave.
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post #208 of 536 Old 09-30-2009, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Umm, if by going into the SM you can squeeze as much as 37 fL out of THX mode...then why oh why is it the calibrators at the shootout ran the 50V10 at only a little more than 25 fL, nearly 10 fL dimmer than the rest of the sets, which were running at 35 fL?

This clearly hurt the V10 in the contest. When you have a wall of displays running at 35 fL in the contest, and then one display at a lower output of only 25+ fL, it is going to appear dimmer/duller than the rest.

Perhaps some compromises in accuracy had to be made by ChadB to squeeze the 37 fL output in THX mode? If there are no real compromises that must take place to achieve 35 fL, then there is no excuse why the calibrator(s) at the shootout could not have gone into the SM and increased the peak luminance to the same level as all the other displays, to level the playing field.

Of course, the sponsor of the shootout did order a large number of KRP's to sell, and it wouldn't hurt sales if the gap between the V10 and the 500M appeared to be larger than it really is, right???

Perhaps ChadB could advise on how much peak output can be acheived in THX mode on the V10's while still maintaining reasonable accuracy.

I find it funny that after 3 months you are still pissed that your favorite panel did not garner the praise that you think it should have. Boo hoo hoo. Want a bucket for your tears? The below has already been stated before, but....

Like it or not, the 50V10 at that shootout could not get over 25fL regardless of trying to manipulate the contrast control in the Service Menu (yeah i know about ALL control in the SM and what and how they interact with each other) or attempting to do anything else. Like it or not every single panel at the shootout was calibrated with a Day and Night mode. So you think I should have used another Day mode instead of Custom? Hmmm, what if I were to use Standard which had a 1.7 gamma. How about Vivid? I reviewed every SINGLE mode on that panel and chose the best 2 video modes available on that panel for the shootout. THX was the best for the Night mode and Custom was best for Day. Those are the facts for that panel and I really don't care how you or others think what would have been best for that panel. Better yet, I really do not know how you can really bitch and complain about it in the first place. Were you there to sit with me when I evaluated the different A/V modes? Didn't think so.

Docmaker, I am sick and tired your snide remarks attempting to discredit the calibration competence of myself, Kevin Miller, and Ed Johnson (same for you DicFiFun). I promise that we know a hell of a lot more about how to calibrate displays, especially the V10, than you ever will.

I have calibrated plenty of V10s and some calibrated just like the one at the shootout and others performed better. Its called "panel variance". Here is a list of equipment used at the shootout the display calibration (again)...

Konica Minolta CS-200 (within its NIST certification period)
Konica Minolta LS-100 (within its NIST certification period)
Klien K-10 (within its NIST certification period)
i1pro (brand new and within its NIST certification period)
Sencore VP403 pattern generator
AVS709HD pattern disc (15% windowed patterns) per a Pioneer Elite BD-P09 Blu-Ray player.


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post #209 of 536 Old 10-02-2009, 08:47 PM
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Chad - I read about 'pumping' as an artifact of the ABL etc on your page. I think this is when there's a scene with lots of bright spots against a dark background (like sunlight gleaming off of leaves on a tree with a dark background (BBC Planet earth stuff)) - there is a 'pumping' going on where you can see the bright spots 'flashing'. Is there a way to compensate for this?
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post #210 of 536 Old 10-05-2009, 09:23 PM
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Why is the rating for the b550 and b860 different for 'color'?
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