Where to buy Pioneer Plasma... - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

I'd have to agree that $3900 is definitely high for a 150. I got my hands on a used 151 for $3200 with a BD player thrown in - for the price you're talking, I'd expect a NIB 141 or 151 with wall mount.

Ok, well that's useful info. He is throwing in Blu Ray Player, a PS3 & a Media Player - but in truth I don't particularly need them so they are not that strong an incentive. Is there a significant IQ difference between the 150s & 151s?
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post #812 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Those prices were for the 50" 9G 101FD, NIB from authorized dealers (at least the $1999), see these posts

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=752

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=615

I even called the named FL BestBuy stores, this was about a month ago, but was told they are no longer allowed to ship (or even have a 3rd party shipper pick up equipment) unless the buyer shows up personally in the store to buy. Anyway I later decided that I probably don't want to ship at all...too much chance of cracked glass, even in the original box, so I didn't try to look into Chicago. I'd much prefer something local, I'd rent a cargo van, to have the space to keep it vertical.

You are right that the 60" units are more rare, so anyone who has one of the few remaining NIB units is going to try to price gouge. Not worth it, imo, compared to 65" units that are half the price and with 3D and other more modern features.

Thanks for the info. Syswei, Unfortunately I think the reality is that I've just missed these deals. I've checked BB both locally (NYC) & in Florida with no joy. Also, I'm more interested in the 60" units - I have no interest in 3D so the more recent Panasonic sets aren't as appealling as the older Kuro's.
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post #813 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by salmonsc View Post

Thanks for the info. Syswei, Unfortunately I think the reality is that I've just missed these deals. I've checked BB both locally (NYC) & in Florida with no joy. Also, I'm more interested in the 60" units - I have no interest in 3D so the more recent Panasonic sets aren't as appealling as the older Kuro's.

Got it. Even so, whatever purchase is made, isn't forever. In 2 years, 3 at most, Pannys will better the 9G Kuro blacks, plus have extra features. Once that happens, the resale value on a Kuro will plummet...right now, the Kuro has good resale value because the cogniscenti (people on AVS) are willing to pay for blacks. The mass market doesn't know.

So the comparison in my mind would be:

Try to find a NIB 60" 9G Kuro and pay maybe $6k. Resale in 2-3 years...maybe $1000 (because the cogniscenti that cares about blacks will no longer care so much about the Kuro, because Panny by that time will have better blacks imo).

Vs. buy a NIB 65VT25 for $3k delivered (in 1-2 months). Resale in 2-3 years...maybe $1000, because the mass market consumer will probably see value in having 3D.

Then I buy a 2012-2013 top of the line Panny, maybe $2k in that timeframe, with PQ and features exceeding the 9G Kuro in every way.

Total cost of option 1: $7000

Total cost of option 2: $4000
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post #814 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 10:53 AM
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That doesn't take into account the other benefits (even if perceived) beyond black levels. For me, I didn't want to have to deal with crappy processing, buzzing, rising blacks, floating blacks, etc.
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post #815 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uziel View Post

That doesn't take into account the other benefits (even if perceived) beyond black levels. For me, I didn't want to have to deal with crappy processing, buzzing, rising blacks, floating blacks, etc.

You mean other benefits with the Kuro's?
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post #816 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 11:35 AM
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Syswei,

You are assuming Panasonic in 3 years will have bettered the Pioneer. There is no proof of that in fact seeing now that the Panasonic is known for rising black levels and other issues Uziel points out just shows that no one can replicate or better what Pioneer has done. You can enjoy your VT25. I will stick with my 101FD
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post #817 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Got it. Even so, whatever purchase is made, isn't forever. In 2 years, 3 at most, Pannys will better the 9G Kuro blacks, plus have extra features. Once that happens, the resale value on a Kuro will plummet...right now, the Kuro has good resale value because the cogniscenti (people on AVS) are willing to pay for blacks. The mass market doesn't know.



Total cost of option 1: $7000

Total cost of option 2: $4000

Agreed, TV purchases don't last forever - though I've had my current HD screen for 5 or 6 years already ... And, you're right, for a discontinued model the current prices of new Kuro's are a little absurd. However, your logic rests on the assumption that the Panny's will better the Kuro's & will do so at considerably less cost. Not necessarily certainties ..no?
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post #818 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mackcamera View Post

You are assuming Panasonic in 3 years will have bettered the Pioneer. There is no proof of that in fact seeing now that the Panasonic is known for rising black levels and other issues Uziel points out just shows that no one can replicate or better what Pioneer has done. You can enjoy your VT25. I will stick with my 101FD

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Originally Posted by salmonsc View Post

Agreed, TV purchases don't last forever - though I've had my current HD screen for 5 or 6 years already ... And, you're right, for a discontinued model the current prices of new Kuro's are a little absurd. However, your logic rests on the assumption that the Panny's will better the Kuro's & will do so at considerably less cost. Not necessarily certainties ..no?

Look, I'm not a Kuro-hater by any means. I mentioned before, I have a 111FD, just so much junk now that the glass is broken (for now I'm getting by with the 32" LCD I had in the kitchen). Remember that Panny acquired all the Pioneer plasma technology. Given the length of the product cycles in this business, that technology doesn't show up in Panny panels, or get improved upon, overnight. But if you keep up with this section of AVS, it seems that people who should know (well-connected D-Nice in particular) believe that the Kuro blacks will be matched/bettered in 2-3 years. I think this is generally accepted in this section of AVS. Just do some searching. This isn't 'proof' because it is in the future so can't be proven until it happens. As for how much a 2012-13 top of the line 65" Panny is going to cost, it doesn't take too much brainpower to look at the trend of those prices over the past 5 or more years and assume there will be a significant reduction in another 2-3 years. And P.S. my 111FD wasn't perfect...it buzzed.

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Originally Posted by mackcamera View Post

no one can replicate or better what Pioneer has done.

??? Why can't the company that acquired Pioneer's plasma technology replicate and in time better it?
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post #819 of 1353 Old 08-06-2010, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Why can't the company that acquired Pioneer's plasma technology replicate and in time better it?

Just to put this in perspective -- the current MSRP for the 65VT25 is $4,300, however the TH-65VX100U Premier monitor is $9,995. This is not to say that there won't be common tech across product families but Panasonic is quite willing to differentiate their product line and charge the big bucks for products in the Elite/Signature category.
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post #820 of 1353 Old 08-09-2010, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Just to put this in perspective -- the current MSRP for the 65VT25 is $4,300, however the TH-65VX100U Premier monitor is $9,995. This is not to say that there won't be common tech across product families but Panasonic is quite willing to differentiate their product line and charge the big bucks for products in the Elite/Signature category.

If anyone wants to place a big bet, using a lawyer to perform escrow, I'm willing. My bet is, that no later than 2013, 60-65" Panasonc plasmas with MSRP no more than $3000 will be generally regarded here on AVS as being at least as good, both overall and in black level, as 60" 9G Elite Kuros.
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post #821 of 1353 Old 08-09-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

If anyone wants to place a big bet, using a lawyer to perform escrow, I'm willing. My bet is, that no later than 2013, 60-65" Panasonc plasmas with MSRP no more than $3000 will be generally regarded here on AVS as being at least as good, both overall and in black level, as 60" 9G Elite Kuros.

That's still 3 years away, and you'd honestly consider Panasonic taking 5 years to match 2008 technology a big accomplishment? Especially since they've owned the patent since 2009? If they don't match or exceed it by then, Samsung or LG will take over as the leader in plasma.

ISF Calibrator

Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD
Pioneer Kuro BDP-320

Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #822 of 1353 Old 08-09-2010, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

That's still 3 years away, and you'd honestly consider Panasonic taking 5 years to match 2008 technology a big accomplishment? Especially since they've owned the patent since 2009? If they don't match or exceed it by then, Samsung or LG will take over as the leader in plasma.

That's the point, I think its basically a slam dunk that they do it...but if you read the last 10 posts or so, some people don't seem to think so.
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post #823 of 1353 Old 08-09-2010, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

That's the point, I think its basically a slam dunk that they do it...but if you read the last 10 posts or so, some people don't seem to think so.

In my case that's because there's a lot more to my 9G monitor than stable MLL an order of magnitude better than the nearest plasma competitor. Panasonic doesn't include a number of features (serial control, network control, CMS -- even partial--, user menu grayscale etc.) in their consumer panels although all those features are available in the Pro/Premier products. The pro panels (all monitors) used to cheaper than the consumer line but no longer.

There's also a definite possibility that in 2-3 years no one will be making plasmas. The patents are irrelevant if a 60"+ ECC panel dissipates 500W at idle.
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post #824 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

In my case that's because there's a lot more to my 9G monitor than stable MLL an order of magnitude better than the nearest plasma competitor. Panasonic doesn't include a number of features (serial control, network control, CMS -- even partial--, user menu grayscale etc.) in their consumer panels although all those features are available in the Pro/Premier products. The pro panels (all monitors) used to cheaper than the consumer line but no longer.

Fine, but I never predicted Panny would meet/beat Kuro in every dimension, just that "no later than 2013, 60-65" Panasonc plasmas with MSRP no more than $3000 will be generally regarded here on AVS as being at least as good, both overall and in black level, as 60" 9G Elite Kuros".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

There's also a definite possibility that in 2-3 years no one will be making plasmas. The patents are irrelevant if a 60"+ ECC panel dissipates 500W at idle.

Hopefully not. My understanding is that the CA standards apply only to sets of 58" and less. Have not heard of anything at the national level, anyway.
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post #825 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 05:48 AM
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Wouldn't that be more difficult thanks to ever increasing Energy Star standards, of which Panasonic's floating blacks result from (or may result from)?
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post #826 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 06:00 AM
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We're getting off topic, this thread is for "Where to buy a Pioneer Plasma".

ISF Calibrator

Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD
Pioneer Kuro BDP-320

Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #827 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Uziel View Post

Wouldn't that be more difficult thanks to ever increasing Energy Star standards

I stand corrected, had forgotten Energy Star.
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post #828 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 06:33 AM
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I stand corrected, had forgotten Energy Star.

...but, is Energy Star labeling and compliance voluntary?
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post #829 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

If anyone wants to place a big bet, using a lawyer to perform escrow, I'm willing. My bet is, that no later than 2013, 60-65" Panasonc plasmas with MSRP no more than $3000 will be generally regarded here on AVS as being at least as good, both overall and in black level, as 60" 9G Elite Kuros.

I'd bet you are pretty much right on here. I just bought a used 6020 off Craigs List for about 2 grand. I have had it for a week and all seems well excepting it shows a touch of the 'dirty screen effect' that some people have complained about in the Kuro threads. I had a 58 inch Panny 60u that has been trouble free for 3 years, but this sets kicks its butt big time. Way less phospher trailing, almost no line bleed, less buzzing, far better blacks, and more pleasing colors than the Panny. I hope I can get a few years out of this and will then replace it when/if Panny comes up with an overall better set. I almost bought a new 6020 at Best Buy last winter but could not bring myself to pay around 4 grand with tax for it. I hope I made a good move here picking up a used one. The Kuro really is outstanding.
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post #830 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 07:29 AM
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And apparently the 6020 can be turned into an Elite 151 with a (relatively) simple board replacement. One thing I love about these 9g Pioneers is the equivalent of a jailbreak/modding community to eek out every last bit of performance--namely the incredible ISF modes with their 9-point gamma controls.

So how many NIB Pioneers are left in the US do we think? Fifty? A hundred?
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post #831 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 07:53 AM
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I know that my local Best Buy warehouse had ~20 NIB 101-FDs last month, but weren't really willing to negotiate on price beyond $2999.99.
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post #832 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uziel View Post

I know that my local Best Buy warehouse had ~20 NIB 101-FDs last month, but weren't really willing to negotiate on price beyond $2999.99.

Perhaps for the benifit of those still looking for a NIB 101FD you should be a little more specific as to the location of the BB warehouse near you.

Even better (if you can) provide the name of the salesperson who showed you this information, so that interested parties can ask for him/her directly and avoid having to explain how to find, where they are, price negotiating, etc. re: 101FDs .

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post #833 of 1353 Old 08-10-2010, 10:48 AM
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It was posted earlier in the thread only a few pages ago, but if it needs repeated: Pittsburgh PA area, Tarentum Magnolia. Don't recall the sales person's name.
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post #834 of 1353 Old 08-11-2010, 03:57 PM
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Hey guys,
First post here and it's a question. I've located a local high end boutique dealer who has an unopened, NIB Pro 111FD for $2000. Is that a good deal? I'm familiar with the 151 and 101 models, just not the 111. Any comments appreciated!
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post #835 of 1353 Old 08-11-2010, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Cableguy73 View Post

I've located a local high end boutique dealer who has an unopened, NIB Pro 111FD for $2000. Is that a good deal?

$2,000 for a new-in-box 111FD is an absolute steal. You'd be sick in the head not to buy it at that price.
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post #836 of 1353 Old 08-11-2010, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Cableguy73 View Post

Hey guys,
First post here and it's a question. I've located a local high end boutique dealer who has an unopened, NIB Pro 111FD for $2000. Is that a good deal? I'm familiar with the 151 and 101 models, just not the 111. Any comments appreciated!

That is a good deal, comparable to the $1999 with stand for the NIB 101FD that Bestbuy stores in parts of FL had a month or two ago...problem with those is that you had to show up at the store if you wanted one (I called them at the time, but live 1000 mi away). Not as good as the $1699 for a NIB 101FD that was reported in Chicago, but I didn't personally verify that story; THAT was a steal, if true.
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post #837 of 1353 Old 08-11-2010, 04:32 PM
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I wish I could find one for $2K in NY

ISF Calibrator

Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD
Pioneer Kuro BDP-320

Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #838 of 1353 Old 08-11-2010, 04:52 PM
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Thanks for the response guys. I found this by searching on CL of all places. I'm going to look at the demo tomorrow. The one I'm buying was purchased as a demo also but was never opened. They couldn't sell this panel because everyone is 3-D crazy. Ahahahaha...their loss is my gain.

What do you guys do for extended warranties? I know that topic is subjective, but this is my first pdp and it's for piece of mind more than anything else. Thanks for any comments.
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post #839 of 1353 Old 08-11-2010, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Cableguy73 View Post

Thanks for the response guys. I found this by searching on CL of all places. I'm going to look at the demo tomorrow. The one I'm buying was purchased as a demo also but was never opened. They couldn't sell this panel because everyone is 3-D crazy. Ahahahaha...their loss is my gain.

Hopefully you get to watch them open the box, so that you know it is really NIB? P.S. don't bring cash on the first visit...a number of CL buyers show up and get robbed at gunpoint, for instance this group of three in the Boston area, who thought they had found a deal on a flat screen TV... http://milton.patch.com/articles/one...t-robbery-case

Just google "craigslist robbed gunpoint" and you'll find other cases.
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post #840 of 1353 Old 08-11-2010, 06:25 PM
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I read that article. Scary stuff. Fortunately for me this is well established local business that I bought cooling fans from a year ago. They aren't a retailer insomuch as they are a media design and install business.

I'm getting friggin excited!! Thoughts on warranties?
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