Burn in on Kuro Elite Pro 111FD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 248 Old 12-28-2009, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone, it's been a while since I posted on here. I have owned the Kuro for almost 2 years now. I never used the built in screen protection features because stupid me thought it took away from the picture quality. Anyway I now notice the channel 5 fox logo burned in whenever the screen has a bright white scene. Is there anyway to get this to go away? I tried the screen saving video pattern but I still see the channel 5 logo while the white bar is going accross the screen. Thanks 2 all who respond to me.
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post #2 of 248 Old 12-28-2009, 03:19 PM
 
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Yours is the third report I've seen lately. How many hours did you leave it on Fox, would you say?
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post #3 of 248 Old 12-28-2009, 03:27 PM
 
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Oops... didn't you use D*'s break-in DVD?

Oh well, stay off FOX channel 5 & just watch full screen content for a while until the IR goes away.
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post #4 of 248 Old 12-28-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Oops... didn't you use D*'s break-in DVD?

I did on both my 600M and 500M. And guess what - no burn-in or IR! And 50% of my viewing on the 500M is ESPNHD, with their logo right in the same spot night after night.

Better build a better theory!
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post #5 of 248 Old 12-28-2009, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

Hello everyone, it's been a while since I posted on here. I have owned the Kuro for almost 2 years now. I never used the built in screen protection features because stupid me thought it took away from the picture quality. Anyway I now notice the channel 5 fox logo burned in whenever the screen has a bright white scene. Is there anyway to get this to go away? I tried the screen saving video pattern but I still see the channel 5 logo while the white bar is going accross the screen. Thanks 2 all who respond to me.

I would post this in the Elite owner's thread as well to get more responses. I just recently noticed burn in as well on my 111. I didn't use the orbiter too - it definitely reduces resolution to my eye. I did use the break in DVD when the set was new so I figured I was safe. I'm using it again as we speak to try to get rid of the IR. Bummer
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post #6 of 248 Old 12-28-2009, 04:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by p59teitel View Post

I did on both my 600M and 500M. And guess what - no burn-in or IR! And 50% of my viewing on the 500M is ESPNHD, with their logo right in the same spot night after night.

Better build a better theory!

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Originally Posted by rumba View Post

I would post this in the Elite owner's thread as well to get more responses. I just recently noticed burn in as well on my 111. I didn't use the orbiter too - it definitely reduces resolution to my eye. I did use the break in DVD when the set was new so I figured I was safe. I'm using it again as we speak to try to get rid of the IR. Bummer

Who or what to believe, such disparaging reports. I'm sure it's related to susceptibility in individual panels also.
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post #7 of 248 Old 12-28-2009, 09:20 PM
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Definitely use the pixel orbiter. I had my 111 set up for 360 gaming with the orbiter on and in game mode on that input, but then I switched to the MW2 250GB hard drive 360 and switched to HDMI input from the component I had been using. Forgot to enable the orbiter and game mode. Got I.R. the first week I had it hooked up. Switched to orbiter on and game mode, watched normal t.v. for a couple days and the I.R. disappeared. I have always used the orbiter on regular HDTV viewing as well.
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post #8 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 02:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Yours is the third report I've seen lately. How many hours did you leave it on Fox, would you say?

I watch fox for about 3 hours every day when I get up.
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post #9 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 04:55 AM
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How many hours of each day do you watch other content?
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post #10 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

I watch fox for about 3 hours every day when I get up.

What about calibration? OOTB "torch mode" doesn't help things. It's most likely not permanent.

larry

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post #11 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 07:02 AM
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Use save 2 and orbiter mode 2 from now on (once you get rid of the IR) and try to watch a lot of full-screen (as in full 16:9) content with no static bars until you clean it off. Leaving planet earth on loop or breakin slides while you're not watching it could be helpful.
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post #12 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

Use save 2 and orbiter mode 2 from now on (once you get rid of the IR) and try to watch a lot of full-screen (as in full 16:9) content with no static bars until you clean it off. Leaving planet earth on loop or breakin slides while you're not watching it could be helpful.

thanks for your response. yes i already switched to orbiter mode 2, not sure what save 2 is?
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post #13 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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post #14 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 12:49 PM
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Ya, that's what you get for watching Fox
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post #15 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post

Ya, that's what you get for watching Fox

You know what all these damn channels have their logo stamped on the screen, it makes me sick. like i dont know what channel im watching
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post #16 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

thanks for your response. yes i already switched to orbiter mode 2, not sure what save 2 is?

for clarification, turn those both off when you're watching full-screen content with no top/bottom/side bars and no static logos/graphics anywhere. Orbiter is designed to shift the pixels, but it might actually hinder evening out the burn-in if you keep it on for slides/full-screen content. When watching stuff with black bars anywhere or glyphs etc... make sure you have orbiter on though.

Save 2 is energy mode. There should be Standard, Save 1, and Save 2. Save 2 is the dimmest while standard is the brightest. When running slides or full 16:9 content you'll want it in Standard mode with orbiter off to try and ease out the image retention on your set. When watching any other content (ie, black bars on sides or top/bottom or with static graphics/logos or video games), you're best to set it to orbiter 2 in save 2 mode to limit any further retention/burn-in on the set.

If it's really burn-in you probably won't be able to get rid of it, but if it's just IR, you should be able to even it out given care and time. As I said, try to run either break-in slides or full-screen content (Planet Earth for instance is full 16:9 with no logos so a good candidate - typical movies with bars are not) on repeat in Standard/orbiter off for the best chance at clearing it out.

For the break-in slides, I would recommend going with webapalooza's 120-version and set it to 7-second intervals. Alternatively, if you can set it up with a computer as a second monitor, Windows 7 lets you set a slideshow as the background, which can let you easily cycle wallpapers , ideally 10 seconds for that way.
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post #17 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

for clarification, turn those both off when you're watching full-screen content with no top/bottom/side bars and no static logos/graphics anywhere. Orbiter is designed to shift the pixels, but it might actually hinder evening out the burn-in if you keep it on for slides/full-screen content. When watching stuff with black bars anywhere or glyphs etc... make sure you have orbiter on though.

Save 2 is energy mode. There should be Standard, Save 1, and Save 2. Save 2 is the dimmest while standard is the brightest. When running slides or full 16:9 content you'll want it in Standard mode with orbiter off to try and ease out the image retention on your set. When watching any other content (ie, black bars on sides or top/bottom or with static graphics/logos or video games), you're best to set it to orbiter 2 in save 2 mode to limit any further retention/burn-in on the set.

If it's really burn-in you probably won't be able to get rid of it, but if it's just IR, you should be able to even it out given care and time. As I said, try to run either break-in slides or full-screen content (Planet Earth for instance is full 16:9 with no logos so a good candidate - typical movies with bars are not) on repeat in Standard/orbiter off for the best chance at clearing it out.

For the break-in slides, I would recommend going with webapalooza's 120-version and set it to 7-second intervals. Alternatively, if you can set it up with a computer as a second monitor, Windows 7 lets you set a slideshow as the background, which can let you easily cycle wallpapers , ideally 10 seconds for that way.

Thanks, energy mode options are actually off, mode1 and mode2. I will assume off is standard. How do I know if it's burn in or ir?
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post #18 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 02:27 PM
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sorry to hear about that. On another board, some guy just assured me that current plasmas are not subject to burn-in or image retention problem anymore. Guess he is wrong and he should check this thread out.
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post #19 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 03:34 PM
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Yeah, people go nuts when I say you should enable as many anti-burn protections as possible and be a little mindful of how your set is communicating with you. I look at a TV like a car or any other instrument that takes maintenance. If you're conscious it's a potential problem it probably won't become one because you'll mentally take action to avoid it till it becomes habit and you don't have to think about it. People jump on me when I try to say that though. I had a CRT monitor and tube tv back in the old days and got BI on neither. Back then people were mindful of what they were doing with them - it was pretty natural to just adjust your viewing, not leave the monitor or TV on for long periods on a static screen or when you were going to be away from it for a while. I remember the only people/places who got BI were in labs/classrooms or people who were just plain stupid. LCD's gotten us stupid again, since we foolishly assume they can't get IR/BI (which is false mind you... just a marketting gimmick, like the "dynamic contrast" bull that tells you a 5:1 contrast monitor/TV really means 5,000,000:1).

Back to his question though, it is Image Retention (IR or TIR t= temporary) if it goes away after a period of time. It is Burn-in (BI or permanent image retention) if it does not go away. The only way you'll be able to tell the difference is to see if you can get rid of it. Typically on modern Pioneer/Panasonics IR is temporary, rather than permanent so there is some hope. There've also been accounts of people who developed IR after abusing their sets and managing to get rid of it after a while.

I had IR on my IPS LCD monitor once (also seen it on some lab LCD's in college) - took 2 to 2.5 weeks to get rid of it. There's a section that still has a little fuzz left in the grayscale. That might be burn-in, but I also haven't really tried to get rid of it since it doesn't annoy me enough. With either plasma or LCD, brightness plays a big role in image retention/burn-in. I always tone down the brightness, both for that and to reduce eye-strain.

When you're breaking in a set on the other hand (or trying to get rid of IR) you want your set to be on full-brightness, with anti-burnin/energy saving tech all disabled. For actual watching it's best to use Save 2 and Orbiter 2. Some will jump on me for the fact that you sacrifice PQ a little in Save 2, but honestly Pioneer sets are so good already it doesn't bother me a huge amount (and I'm interested in keeping the set for a while and so am willing to sacrifice a little in the way of PQ to maximize overall longevity of the set).

@arthurking - any LCD or plasma can develop burn-in/IR (TIR is most likely in both cases) with abuse. Admittedly, I abused my monitor pretty badly (although it also has cranked up brightness to increase contrast ratio) - leaving on a static wallpaper and icons etc... for long periods even while not using it ("Hey, LCD can't get IR/BI"). Now I have Windows 7 change the wallpaper in slideshow every 10 seconds and it's all but eliminated. I also try to avoid keeping any icons on the actual desktop to avoid "after-image" from prolonged time being displayed. That's on an LCD mind you. If your display - plasma or LCD is bright enough and has high enough contrast, you can very easily get IR or BI.

The people who claim otherwise are just used to LCD's with no contrast and or brightness. The only tech fully immune is DLP, but for a variety of reasons (mostly low-reliability on all their mechanical parts and constant need for bulb replacements) it's a suboptimal solution anyway. IR and BI have been around for a long time (pretty much since there were tv's), some sets are more or less prone, but there's always a chance. It's best to just be careful and enable any features available. One sneaky thing about LCD's also is they frequently tout that they are immune to IR/BI making them better than plasma or CRT etc... but then they also have disclaimers in their warranties telling you that it's not covered if you get permanent image retention (although they don't have consistent terms for it on LCD's so often the terminogy is something intentionally obscure).
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.

I don't like Fox's sleazy ratings attempts (bimbos galore) but I'll take them over MSNBC's nausea-inducing bias any day.
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post #21 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

Yeah, people go nuts when I say you should enable as many anti-burn protections as possible and be a little mindful of how your set is communicating with you. I look at a TV like a car or any other instrument that takes maintenance. If you're conscious it's a potential problem it probably won't become one because you'll mentally take action to avoid it till it becomes habit and you don't have to think about it. People jump on me when I try to say that though. I had a CRT monitor and tube tv back in the old days and got BI on neither. Back then people were mindful of what they were doing with them - it was pretty natural to just adjust your viewing, not leave the monitor or TV on for long periods on a static screen or when you were going to be away from it for a while. I remember the only people/places who got BI were in labs/classrooms or people who were just plain stupid. LCD's gotten us stupid again, since we foolishly assume they can't get IR/BI (which is false mind you... just a marketting gimmick, like the "dynamic contrast" bull that tells you a 5:1 contrast monitor/TV really means 5,000,000:1).

Back to his question though, it is Image Retention (IR or TIR t= temporary) if it goes away after a period of time. It is Burn-in (BI or permanent image retention) if it does not go away. The only way you'll be able to tell the difference is to see if you can get rid of it. Typically on modern Pioneer/Panasonics IR is temporary, rather than permanent so there is some hope. There've also been accounts of people who developed IR after abusing their sets and managing to get rid of it after a while.

I had IR on my IPS LCD monitor once (also seen it on some lab LCD's in college) - took 2 to 2.5 weeks to get rid of it. There's a section that still has a little fuzz left in the grayscale. That might be burn-in, but I also haven't really tried to get rid of it since it doesn't annoy me enough. With either plasma or LCD, brightness plays a big role in image retention/burn-in. I always tone down the brightness, both for that and to reduce eye-strain.

When you're breaking in a set on the other hand (or trying to get rid of IR) you want your set to be on full-brightness, with anti-burnin/energy saving tech all disabled. For actual watching it's best to use Save 2 and Orbiter 2. Some will jump on me for the fact that you sacrifice PQ a little in Save 2, but honestly Pioneer sets are so good already it doesn't bother me a huge amount (and I'm interested in keeping the set for a while and so am willing to sacrifice a little in the way of PQ to maximize overall longevity of the set).

@arthurking - any LCD or plasma can develop burn-in/IR (TIR is most likely in both cases) with abuse. Admittedly, I abused my monitor pretty badly (although it also has cranked up brightness to increase contrast ratio) - leaving on a static wallpaper and icons etc... for long periods even while not using it ("Hey, LCD can't get IR/BI"). Now I have Windows 7 change the wallpaper in slideshow every 10 seconds and it's all but eliminated. I also try to avoid keeping any icons on the actual desktop to avoid "after-image" from prolonged time being displayed. That's on an LCD mind you. If your display - plasma or LCD is bright enough and has high enough contrast, you can very easily get IR or BI.

The people who claim otherwise are just used to LCD's with no contrast and or brightness. The only tech fully immune is DLP, but for a variety of reasons (mostly low-reliability on all their mechanical parts and constant need for bulb replacements) it's a suboptimal solution anyway. IR and BI have been around for a long time (pretty much since there were tv's), some sets are more or less prone, but there's always a chance. It's best to just be careful and enable any features available. One sneaky thing about LCD's also is they frequently tout that they are immune to IR/BI making them better than plasma or CRT etc... but then they also have disclaimers in their warranties telling you that it's not covered if you get permanent image retention (although they don't have consistent terms for it on LCD's so often the terminogy is something intentionally obscure).

Thank you very much for this. Very informative. Just to be clear to get rid of it I can watch a movie with no bars for example a widescreen 1.85:1 and turn off all burn in image retention features etc. correct?
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post #22 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 05:10 PM
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You read his post wrong. He's saying your best bet is to ENABLE all IR-prevention features (i.e. Energy Save Mode 2, Orbiter Mode 1). Of course, avoid side-masks and black bars at all costs until your IR has disappeared.
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post #23 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 05:16 PM
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You probably should be ok, but be aware 1.85:1 will typically give you very slight black bars on the sides since 16:9 is 1.78:1

My advise for you to do, is to watch TV/movies normally with Orbiter 2 on and Save 2 and then run either the slides or true 16:9 content on loop (Planet Earth is one example of this) while you're not watching it. This is the best way to get rid of IR. Bear in mind it may take as much as several weeks depending on how bad the IR is (assuming it's IR and not burn-in). Due to the amount of time it can potentially take, it's better for you to just switch settings for when you are and aren't going to be watching it. That way you also don't have to worry so much about what kind of content you're watching (with Orbiter 2 and Save2).

If the IR does go away (which is hopeful considering typically on current sets it will), I would always leave it on Orbiter 2 afterwards to be safe. Standard energy mode probably should be fine as long as orbiter is on, but Save 2 would be ideal. I notice a big difference on my super-bright SIPS Dell LCD between full brightness and minimum brightness. At full brightness, I can give myself IR in < 30 minutes. At minimum (which is still quite bright by LCD monitor standards), I rarely get IR unless I've been leaving windows/icons on the desktop for long periods of time. The sacrifice though is when you turn down the max brightness, you also reduce the contrast and crush some color/black detail. Orbiter 2 should help a lot and you should turn on whenever you're doing normal watching (it doesn't really affect PQ at all IMO). Standard vs. Save 1 vs. Save 2 is more personal. The lower the max brightness you go, the safer you are, but the more you sacrifice in terms of PQ. Best thing is to play around with it after you've gotten the IR squared away and see what setting works best for you and doesn't cause any IR. I would always keep Orbiter on 2 though regardless. I would keep ALL normal viewing in ORBITER 2 and ENERGY SAVE 2 while you're trying to clear up your IR.
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post #24 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by esp2684 View Post

You read his post wrong. He's saying your best bet is to ENABLE all IR-prevention features (i.e. Energy Save Mode 2, Orbiter Mode 1). Of course, avoid side-masks and black bars at all costs until your IR has disappeared.

Are you sure? Here is his quote from earlier in the thread.


As I said, try to run either break-in slides or full-screen content (Planet Earth for instance is full 16:9 with no logos so a good candidate - typical movies with bars are not) on repeat in Standard/orbiter off for the best chance at clearing it out.
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post #25 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 05:32 PM
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Are you sure? Here is his quote from earlier in the thread.


As I said, try to run either break-in slides or full-screen content (Planet Earth for instance is full 16:9 with no logos so a good candidate - typical movies with bars are not) on repeat in Standard/orbiter off for the best chance at clearing it out.

1.85:1 is not identical to 16:9 - it's probably fine as I said two posts up, but you will have thin side bars with 1.85:1 content. Personally if it were me, I'd be safer and run it in two totally separate modes:

1) viewing mode - energy save 2, orbiter 2
2) IR correction mode - standard, orbiter off - slides or true 16:9 content like PE on loop.

If the IR is bad and been there for a while, it will probably take quite a while to get rid of it so it's best to just run in those two modes and switch the settings between whenever you're switching between viewing and non-viewing. If you know you're going to be watching a lot of TV in a night, just stick with mode (1) for the time you'll be watching. Switch it into the correction mode overnight, when you're at work etc... ie extended periods when you know you won't be watching it. Just remember to switch it back before normal viewing. If you need to stick a post-it on the remote or somewhere visible reminding you to switch the settings before normal viewing.
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post #26 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 07:49 PM
 
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MSNBC is one option....just kidding...

On a serious note, try Jscreenfix at http://www.jscreenfix.com/ connect your PC or MAC via HDMI and then run jscreenfix in full screen for good 30 minutes to an hour, if it can't eliminate burn-in or IR, it should at least reduce it to some acceptable level and you can run it again.
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post #27 of 248 Old 12-29-2009, 10:27 PM
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[quote=apark5;17811506]MSNBC is one option....just kidding...

No MSNBC is not an option. That's what gave me IR on my 111! That stupid white banner they now have running across the top of all their programming.
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post #28 of 248 Old 12-30-2009, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apark5 View Post

MSNBC is one option....just kidding...

On a serious note, try Jscreenfix at http://www.jscreenfix.com/ connect your PC or MAC via HDMI and then run jscreenfix in full screen for good 30 minutes to an hour, if it can't eliminate burn-in or IR, it should at least reduce it to some acceptable level and you can run it again.

Is pixelPROTECTOR any good? I don't have HDMI on my PC.
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post #29 of 248 Old 12-30-2009, 06:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

Is pixelPROTECTOR any good? I don't have HDMI on my PC.

I don't have any experience with Pixelprotector. Can you connect a VGA cable from your PC to PRO-111FD and put the TV on PC input though resolution would only be upto 1280x1024 however if you can fill the screen and run jscreenfix, that should work as well.
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post #30 of 248 Old 12-30-2009, 11:23 AM
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Unless you never have viewed any other content but Foxnews then it is more than likely just stubborn IR...don't give up on trying to get rid of it...it should with time...
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