Panasonic 2010 Plasma Models - Page 116 - AVS Forum
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post #3451 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Hopefully you have the only one made that will change. Time will tell I guess

He is looking at an S2 model correct ? I doubt ( unless i am wrong ) they really changed much on the S2 model from the 2009's, and am not suprised to see that it will have the MLL issue.

The G20's still have a higher chance but I really want to know about the VTs, those might have some change.
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post #3452 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

The 58" is back up in price on Amazon...65 is too. This wouldn't seem a very good method for cleaning out existing inventory.

Amazon changes their prices all the time (even within the same day) on many products. Not sure why, I am sure they have done some research that shows the hot times to mark down or mark up items in relation to how it will drive sales.
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post #3453 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 10:34 AM
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When it is thought about as a whole, this issue came out as just about the whole Panasonic line was discontinued. No one complained the whole year about this until about 2 months ago, that I know of. I sold about 900 Panasonic plasmas and have gotten "0" complaints. I hope it stays this way too.

--Side note, I did have a guy get his TH-65PZ850U set swapped, as his set was getting darker. The black levels where dropping ( I KID YOU NOT !!!!! )
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post #3454 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neceo View Post

He is looking at an S2 model correct ? I doubt ( unless i am wrong ) they really changed much on the S2 model from the 2009's, and am not suprised to see that it will have the MLL issue.

You are wrong

I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe, but the 2010 Panasonics will rise in idle luminance just like the 2009 models.
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post #3455 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe, but the 2010 Panasonics will rise in idle luminance just like the 2009 models.

I think most of us have accepted that and are really more concerned with how much they will rise at what point in the panel's life they will stop rising. Oh, and whether or not Panasonic can be pressured into developing and releasing a fix.

Looking forward to seeing some hours and numbers from you later on.
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post #3456 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

When it is thought about as a whole, this issue came out as just about the whole Panasonic line was discontinued. No one complained the whole year about this until about 2 months ago, that I know of. I sold about 900 Panasonic plasmas and have gotten "0" complaints. I hope it stays this way too.

--Side note, I did have a guy get his TH-65PZ850U set swapped, as his set was getting darker. The black levels where dropping ( I KID YOU NOT !!!!! )

The first reports started appearing in early august on this forum. The voltage increase and hence the MLL increase happen at timed intervals. People just needed to run time up on their sets to see the effects.

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post #3457 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:09 AM
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Bla! Bla! Bla!
I have a G10, and it blacks continue fantastic.
I sugest, you compare a panny G10 with the suppose black level rise, and compare whith a sammy plasma whith the same time of using and measure the blacks.
The important questions are?
-when do we have a review of G20?
-Do you think is there any sammy display better than the vt25?
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post #3458 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You are wrong

I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe, but the 2010 Panasonics will rise in idle luminance just like the 2009 models.

just like?

what is your definition of "just like"?
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post #3459 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:12 AM
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.....
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post #3460 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by robbytv View Post

just like?

What is your definition of "just like"?

wtf???
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post #3461 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

I think most of us have accepted that and are really more concerned with how much they will rise at what point in the panel's life they will stop rising. Oh, and whether or not Panasonic can be pressured into developing and releasing a fix.

Looking forward to seeing some hours and numbers from you later on.

How much would be around 3x the original value. They will stop rising after a few thousand hours of use.
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post #3462 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:28 AM
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just to clarify (math nerd question), which intepretation is correct:

(1) There will be a 300% rise = 400% of original value (thus final MLL = 4 times initial value)

or (2) are you saying they will settle at 300% OF original value (i.e. 3 times initial value)

thanks!

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post #3463 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:31 AM
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2. I've edited my post to reflect your number 2 since some here seem to slice and dice my posts into their own perceptual reality.
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post #3464 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

How much would be around 300%. They will stop rising after a few thousand hours of use.

But just to be clear, is that your prediction for 2010 models or 2009 models? I think 11G/12G measurement data so far seem to be on track with that statement.
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post #3465 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

2. I've edited my post to reflect your number 2 since some here seem to slice and dice my posting into their own perceptual reality.

thanks appreciate the clarification...

I teach some standardized test prep classes and it is an important lesson to get students to read percentage problems carefully

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post #3466 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

2. I've edited my post to reflect your number 2 since some here seem to slice and dice my posts into their own perceptual reality.

LoL so the only way to bring the black levels down again would be watch "MORE" television!

Coming soon...
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post #3467 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

How much would be around 3x the original value. They will stop rising after a few thousand hours of use.

How are you able to claim this with any amount of confidence? Last year's models did that, yes. And you have one of this year's models which is also brightening, but I don't see how you can claim to know that it will rise the same amount until you or anyone else has actually seen it do so.
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post #3468 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:40 AM
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sigh ... well then i guess it will be the sammy 8000 58 for me
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post #3469 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:41 AM
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My TC-P50G25 was delivered yesterday!!!! I set it up last night and here are the first impressions. On turning the set on for the first time, the picture was too contrasty. I spent all of 30 seconds on that before going into the menu and switching to THX mode. I still thought the picture was too bright and contrasty. It also appeared to have a bit of a yellow bias. After watching a bit, I started to explore the menus. I turned on the CATS system that automatically adjusts the TV contrast to the room lighting. Because my room was dark, it immediately turned down the brightness a bit and the result was then much better. Also, the yellow bias seemed to be less and over time seemed to get better as I left the set on longer. I am not sure if the TV needs a certain amount of "break in" before the colors settle in. If I have time this weekend, I may get out the Spyder2 (I know it is not the best) and make some gray scale and color measurements. I will not have time to really fiddle with calibration. Overall, my impression of the set is WOW!!! I previously had a Sharp LCD and this blows it away. Black levels are great. I have never spent time with a Kuro, so I cannot compare, but I am satisfied. I have examined previous generations of Panasonic plasmas and they have definitely reduced the screen reflections substantially. It is as good as my Sharp LCD was in this regard. I never liked the shiny screens of the previous plasmas so passed them over at the time for the LCD. I feel this is very important as I cannot reduce the light intensity in my viewing room during the day. This set is definitely better than last years plasmas for daylight viewing. I will report more later when I get a chance as I am extremely busy at work through Friday. Hope this helps!
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post #3470 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:44 AM
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record your MLL level now .. and measure it later as well
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post #3471 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

LCD monitors don't work the same way as CRT monitors -- you can feed them a 1hz signal and, if it could accept and display it, it wouldn't flicker any more or less than a 120hz signal. Their effective refresh rate is about 200hz (the rate that the backlight flickers), so I don't think that's what's bothering your eyes.

But aren't plasmas more like CRTs in the way they refresh? I know they don't have to do horizontal scans, so it should be less noticable, but there is still more flicker the slower the refresh, right? I think that's what bothers my eyes with my panny, the fact that it refreshes at 60hz. That's why I was hoping the VTs would refresh at 120hz.
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post #3472 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:49 AM
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D-Nice,

How do you check the time of use of the panel? If I start taking measurements of the G25 black levels, I want to record the on time as well. Is this in the Service Menu and how do you access it?

Thanks!
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post #3473 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

I think most of us have accepted that and are really more concerned with how much they will rise at what point in the panel's life they will stop rising. Oh, and whether or not Panasonic can be pressured into developing and releasing a fix.

Looking forward to seeing some hours and numbers from you later on.

well according to D-Nice.... the rise will be "just like" the 2009 models.
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post #3474 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

well according to D-Nice.... the rise will be "just like" the 2009 models.

You might have missed his follow-up post, but it's about as clear as he can make it for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

How much would be around 3x the original value. They will stop rising after a few thousand hours of use.

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post #3475 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseMuffin View Post

How are you able to claim this with any amount of confidence? Last year's models did that, yes. And you have one of this year's models which is also brightening, but I don't see how you can claim to know that it will rise the same amount until you or anyone else has actually seen it do so.

For one, my contacts. Another would be the fact that the same automatic voltage control software is in the 2010 panels. Panasonic stated the only change to this system is the level of graduations for the rise.
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post #3476 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raftin4Luv View Post

D-Nice,

How do you check the time of use of the panel? If I start taking measurements of the G25 black levels, I want to record the on time as well. Is this in the Service Menu and how do you access it?

Thanks!

Search the forum on how to access the SM and check the ours of use. I do not provide SM assistance as you can screw things up if you accidently hit the wrong button.
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post #3477 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twkatadin View Post

But aren't plasmas more like CRTs in the way they refresh? I know they don't have to do horizontal scans, so it should be less noticable, but there is still more flicker the slower the refresh, right? I think that's what bothers my eyes with my panny, the fact that it refreshes at 60hz. That's why I was hoping the VTs would refresh at 120hz.

The VTs will not refresh at 120Hz. You will have 96Hz for 1080p/24 content, 48Hz per eye for 3D 1080p/24 content (3D will be 60Hz per eye for non 1080p/24 content) and 60Hz for everything else.
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post #3478 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

For one, my contacts. Another would be the fact that the same automatic voltage control software is in the 2010 panels. Panasonic stated the only change to this system is the level of graduations for the rise.

Yep... people don't seem to get this.

Panny said that the rise will STILL happen... and probably by the same total amount over time... it's just that it will happen in smaller steps, and more often... so the "jumps" aren't as noticable as a couple of "big" jumps.

It's NOT fixed... each individual change is just less noticable.

For example... instead of 2 big steps of change, it will happen in 10 smaller steps...

Which I find disappointing... and the only question left now is "Will (or can) Panasonic somehow fix the software via firmware?"... and I don't have a lot of hope in that.

Dana Abboud in the house!
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post #3479 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 12:12 PM
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IIRC, D-Nice said his 54" S2 started at 0.006ish ... Maybe the 58 / 65" VTs will be down to 0.004 - 0.005 at start. A rise to 300% initial value would leave them at 0.012 - 0.015 after a few thousand hours. (Not the 0.025 reported by some owners of 2009 G10s.)

With a bias light I wonder if I could live with that. How strong a bias light would it take to make the difference unnoticeable? Would the room still be basically dim? Or would the blacks still look greyish irrespective of bias lighting?

(With my old CRT I was able to finagle the bias light so that in a dim room blacks looked very black indeed. Switching the light off however one could see that the "blacks" were glowing faintly.)

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post #3480 of 5848 Old 03-03-2010, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by walt73 View Post

With a bias light I wonder if I could live with that. How strong a bias light would it take to make the difference unnoticeable? Would the room still be basically dim? Or would the blacks still look greyish irrespective of bias lighting?

Would you really want to pay a premium price for a product that doesn't offer premium performance though?
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