Why can't a non 3D plasma be converted to 3D? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering if there is any way that an add on black box of tricks would enable say a Pioneer 151 to disply 3D or is that not possible?
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post #2 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 11:09 AM
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Anything's possible, if enough people are perceived to want it.

A set-top 3-D processor for Pioneer displays would work wonders here at AVS. I'd bet half of the 3-D pooh-poohers are Pioneer owners nervous about their units becoming passe.
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post #3 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

Anything's possible, if enough people are perceived to want it.

A set-top 3-D processor for Pioneer displays would work wonders here at AVS. I'd bet half of the 3-D pooh-poohers are Pioneer owners nervous about their units becoming passe.

LOL!!
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post #4 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 11:23 AM
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I actually came on here to ask this question and saw this thread.

I purchased a Samsung PN58B650 in June. I'm happy with it and do not plan on running out and buying a 3D TV. I would consider buying a 3D Blu ray player and 3D Blu-ray after demoing it somewhere. My question is, what is a 3D TV doing that my current TV cant. If I buy a 3D player and movie, why cant my TV display the image? Is there something I am missing? or do the manufactures want you to buy a 3K+ TV instead of a firmware update or something like that?

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post #5 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 11:29 AM
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In order for 3D to work, the panel/processor must be able to display 120hz - or true 60fps - 30fps each eye respectfully. This is for the shutter method is totally possible with an outboard decoder.

Any other method - polarizer based, etc. are proprietary technologies.

I personally hope they do come out with one, as I think the demand will dictate if it happens (most will not be able to fork over 4 a new set)
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post #6 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Exactly what I was thinking, and if I'm not mistaken Plasma don't have a refresh rate problem. i would pay upto $500 to get a box of tricks that would enable my present set to display 3D.
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post #7 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 12:14 PM
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Most people suggest a 60Hz implementation (30 per eye) results in significant flicker (along with other 3D buzzwords-- increased "smearing" and "cross-talk") that is fatiguing, head-ache inducing, and generally unappealing. If there is no input on the unit that accepts anything greater than 60Hz, how would you get around this? Ignoring that and assuming current PDP's are capable of displaying 120Hz (I have no idea), would it be possible for a software/FW update to internally duplicate frames up to 120? I dunno, but I suspect their excuse is they don't have that kind of extra processing power sitting idle, and if they did, I would be wary of the quality. There is also something about the current phosphors being too slow to produce a convincing effect even if all of the above were possible.
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post #8 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 12:31 PM
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Hi,

When they will come to market, I do not know but there are a number of companies working on offering alternative 3D solutions in the form of add-on equipment. One even demonstrated their demo at CES which requires no glasses at all. With this in mind & taking into account that this year we will only see first gen of an expensive & evolving tech & even the mighty Sony pretty much admitting that it will be at least 2012 before 3D matures enough to be truly ready for the mainstream market, I doubt if anyone has really that much to worry about by the imminent introduction of 3D - Pioneer Owners or otherwise.

From my personal point of view: I have a Pioneer G9 Kuro. If Pioneer would still be around, I would have most likely upgraded in around 3 years time (not that I needed to but we all know how this game works!). I would have waited for Pioneer to perfect 3D rather than jump on the first ones that came along. With Panny taking over Pioneer Tech which will realistically take another year or two to fully integrate, I am happily pretty much on original course so will not be rushing out to replace my Kuro just yet.

Hopefully, in around 2 or 3 years, the heavy costs of all equipment need in the chain will have stabilised somewhat, there will be more than just a few handful of films available to view & who knows, maybe even glasses free 3D may be an option! I thinking waiting a little while will also allow one to see how well the market responds to 3D and whether it will take off in the manner "needed" by the CE companies or whether it proves to be a huge success or flop.


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post #9 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Techaholic View Post

I was wondering if there is any way that an add on black box of tricks would enable say a Pioneer 151 to disply 3D or is that not possible?

I posted this in the official KRP-500/600M thread, but i'll duplicate here:

Unfortunately no. None of the Kuros (or any other consumer PDP for that matter) are capable of displaying the newer forms of 3D imagery. There are basically four methods of distributing 3D into the consumers' home:

1. Anaglyph stereoscopic 3D. Anaglyph is the oldest and poorest rendition of 3D, as color saturation and detail are sacrificed for the added depth of the 3D effect. This is what My Bloody Valentine 3D and Journey to the Center of the Earth use for the home video market. Pairs of red and blue cheap glasses are included to get the 3D effect, but color and the overall image look bland and washed out, and motion resolution plummets as well. Anaglyph techynology will work with all existing displays, but be aware that resolution and overall image quality suffers tremendously.

2. Circular polarized stereoscopic. This is the method employed for virtually all 3D presentations in theaters today (IMAX and non-IMAX cinemas), including JC's Avatar. The technique works by sending out two separate (half-resolution) images through polarizing filters, one for each eye, and thus requires circular polarized glasses to view correctly. The important thing to be aware of is that full vertical resolution is not maintained; the original captured/mastered resolution is halved vertically, but not horizontally. So for Blu-ray transfers, it would be 1920 x 540 x 2, and for 2K projection (like in digital theaters), 2048x1152 becomes 2048x576 for 16:9 aspect ratio imagery.

Digital FP systems are required to produce this effect (except for 15/70 IMAX projection systems which use an advanced technique). Most non-IMAX systems installed in the US are DLP FPs, while LCoS FPs can also be used to render the effect. Samsung and JVC have announced direct-view displays for 2010 that will use CP technology.

3. Active shutter stereoscopic. This works by requiring the display to alternate images at a rate of 60Hz. Battery-powered active shutter glasses communicate with the display via IR to sync with the on-screen image, creating the superb 3D effect. This is the most expensive approach (the glasses aren't cheap), but will also produce the highest quality, as well as the most seamless, least-fatiguing 3D viewing. Active shutter will allow the full resolution of each frame to be maintained (1920x1080 x 2, one for each eye for Blu-ray), and this is the approach which Panasonic is pioneering. Quality is not compromised. Panasonic and Samsung have announced 2010 releases of AS direct-view displays.

4. Real-time 2D-to-3D conversion. This approach works exactly as it sounds; 2D content is converted to 3D on-the-fly using internal processing algorithms. This will most likely be similar to MCFI processing in LCDs in the sense that some implementations will work better than others. Toshiba and Samsung are the first two mfrs. to announce this feature on 2010 sets.

As you can see, the Kuros and all other current displays are not compatible with methods 2-4. They cannot produce polarized (half-resolution) images, they cannot produce time-shifted (full 1080p) images, and they lack the 2D-3D processing. To utilize these new 3D technologies, you will need to buy a new display, along with a new Blu-ray player.

There is also a possible roadbump in the home theater chain with AVRs. The BDA has reported that some AVRs will not be able to accept the bandwidth of a full 1080p 3D BD signal from a BD player through HDMI inputs. Other methods are being discussed.
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post #10 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 12:43 PM
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Out of the new approaches listed, I imagine active shutter has the highest chance of being implemented in pre-released displays.

As I understand it, the syncing signal can be sent out from EITHER the source (BD player) or sink device. The 3D signal will be transmitted from the source device, to the display via HDMI, and then on to the AS glasses. The source device could send out the syncing signal, but the display would still have to send out a time-shifted image. That is, the display must sequentially transmit two independent, full-resolution frames per eye to the LCD shutter lenses.

The AS system is thus completely reliant on maintaining the sync between the display and the AS battery-powered glasses. It is assumed that there will be a '3D Mode' to enable for the displays coming out in 2010.

Circular polarized 3D will not work with any current direct-view displays either because the display must be coated with a polarizer.

The overwhelming majority of CE mfrs. have chosen AS technology, while some content providers have chosen CP. Concerns persist regarding cross-compatability between the two different approaches.
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post #11 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 12:48 PM
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I have been thinking about this and am wondering the same thing...
Here are my thoughts on it(I have a panny plasma from last year, 54G10)

Currently there are 4 types of 3D tech out there if I am correct:

1) Old school two color 3d with colored glasses, that any TV can perform but looks like crap.

2) Stereoscopic 3d which doesnt require glasses, but you have to sit in exactly the right spot. This wont be happening with our current TVs.

3) Polarized 3D glasses where the display shows two different images on the screen at the same time(I may be wrong on this), cutting the resolution and you wear glasses that views one of the images for each eye. This is how the tech works in theatres, thus requiring non shutter glasses. I may be incorrect about both images at the same time, and it may be images shown frame by frame like shutter glasses. This most likely wont be happening with our tvs as the tv must be able to show the individual images I think(not sure on this).

4). Shutter glasses, where the tv shows two pictures alternating frame by frame, and the glasses flip alternating which eye they show the image to corresponding with what the tv is showing.

Number 4 seems perfectly viable to me on current TVs with an accessory doesnt it? As it seems right now the HDMI 1.4 spec allows for this 3d seperation of frames, but it seems like a box could just be created to take the HDMI 1.4 signal, connect the shutter glasses to so they are synced, and send the picture over normal HDMI to the TV.

The only issue I would see would be the refresh rate on the tv. My panasonic plasma operates at 60hz I believe, and I am not sure how this works. Could someone explain that to me? Would 60hz be enough to show 120 FPS so you could have two 60FPS images for each eye and not have bad flickering?
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post #12 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccb0x45 View Post

I have been thinking about this and am wondering the same thing...
Here are my thoughts on it(I have a panny plasma from last year, 54G10)

I don't mean to offend, but your post is full of inaccurate information. All forms of the newer 3D imagery (as well as anaglyph) are stereoscopic formats. Your #1 and #2 I think are therefore saying the same thing.

As for the 60 vs. 120Hz dilemma, it is unclear whether current (non-3D) displays could be made to conform with AS technology by simply distributing a FW update.
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post #13 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 01:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Techaholic View Post

Why can't a non 3D plasma be converted to 3D?

Because the PDP manufacturers don't have enough of those silly 3D glasses to go around.
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post #14 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 01:20 PM
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What were the results, when NBC showed a program in 3D in early January 2009. People had to order free 3D glasses to watch a 3D version of Chuck. How did it look? If it was acceptable looking, then there might be some hope for the OP being able to adapt his current set.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/01/03...nd-chuck/10150

"
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post #15 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

What were the results, when NBC showed a program in 3D in early January 2009. People had to order free 3D glasses to watch a 3D version of Chuck. How did it look? If it was acceptable looking, then there might be some hope for the OP being able to adapt his current set.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/01/03...nd-chuck/10150

"

The red/green glasses don't work very well and cut down on a lot of the light output. The shutter glasses are supposed to be much better, but one of the issues is flicker. If you could generate an accurate sync, say straight out of a PS3 to a USB dongle than any TV that can handle 1080p60 could support 30Hz 3d.

We put up with 24fps film, so you'd think that'd be acceptable, but if it's too flickery it's too flickery.
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post #16 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 07:03 PM
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The shutter glasses rock-as long as they are synced properly as Jon pointed out. One thing that became very evident at CES this past weekend is that the glasses (as they stand now) are way too fragile for casual use. If it were only you using them there would be no problems. However when the riff-raff (children/friends/other family members) who didn't pay for it start throwing them around like toys they won't last long.

However, just wait until the after-market manufacturers get going on this. (There were a few evident at CES). You show up at your buddy's house to watch Avatar 2 in 3D and you bring along your stylish Oakley shutter glasses with the titanium frames and prescription lenses.
Part of the totally geeked out look with the current glasses is that have to use a one-size-fits-all approach (you should have seen my 7-year old at Avatar with the glasses covering 3/4 of his face ) that the after market crowd doesn't have to use.
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post #17 of 39 Old 01-13-2010, 08:03 PM
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Update: I was able to experience the active shutter system directly at the local Sony Style outlet here in Pentagon City. The video source was a continuous loop of 3D material, ranging from a pro soccer event, nature documentaries, to PS3 video games trailers.

My first impression is very positive. You simply don the AS eyewear and hold the power button on the side for approx. 3 seconds to allow the IR receiver to sync with the emitter in the Sony display. The effect activates instantaneously. The clarity and degree of smoothness actually took me by surprise. I was expecting flicker, of which I perceived none. I expected detail and overall clarity to drop, but this wasn't the case.

The 3D depth definitely added immersion to the image, but the real treat for me was the PS3 game trailers. To me, this should be the 3D marketers' primary focus. Watching clips of Killzone 2, Wipeout HD, and Little Big Planet made me want this tech in my home now (if I could). Wipeout HD was nothing short of a visual tour de force, akin to a non-intoxicated acid trip. A very close second for me was the sporting events. I can definitely see the appeal of watching football, basketball, etc. in 3D.

Now, I still left with some unanswered questions. First, was the content being looped at Sony Style created specifically for 3D? Even though those PS3 titles were already released, were they touched up in any way; were clips simply taken from the games and remastered in 3D? If not, then I am no longer a skeptic regarding the the 2D-to-3D conversion update coming for PS3. That would mean existing content is in fact sufficiently compatible with the effect, and all you will need is an active shutter display.

I was also unable to make an assessment under critical viewing conditions. The attendant was not permitted to dim the lights in the viewing area, as she said there has been some theft of the AS eyewear in other locations. So I am still curious if the quality can hold up under dim/dark conditions.

I was not able to get any word on pricing, but she did say it was slated for a summer release. I was also able to confirm the AS display was native 1080p, with default settings enabled. (I don't know if that means any 120/240Hz MCFI was enabled or not.)

In short, I welcome the 3D content, especially for gaming applications, and hope to experience more of it soon.
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post #18 of 39 Old 01-14-2010, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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So I'm not clear if that mean an existing plasma can display both images and with the use of shutter glasses you will see 3D or does the set have to be built to allow for the two images?
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post #19 of 39 Old 01-14-2010, 06:59 AM
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So I'm not clear if that mean an existing plasma can display both images

Nothing currently available will work with 3D, nor can it be upgraded. If you want 3D, you will need a new display that's built specifically for the technology.
(When I use the term "3D", I don't mean the red/blue glasses thing-I refer to the new technology that is being introduced)
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post #20 of 39 Old 01-14-2010, 08:00 AM
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I think that's a little premature.
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post #21 of 39 Old 01-14-2010, 11:24 AM
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What about owners of samsungs A450 and B450 models. I know those are 3d ready and have a hook up on the back for the shutter glasses. I know with those you use your home pc also and it has to have certain specs to work. Now when the new 3d bluray players come out or the ps3's firmware upgrade will those take the place of the pc.
I know there are dlp's that are 3d ready but this is a plasma forum
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post #22 of 39 Old 01-15-2010, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanpol View Post

What about owners of samsungs A450 and B450 models. I know those are 3d ready and have a hook up on the back for the shutter glasses. I know with those you use your home pc also and it has to have certain specs to work. Now when the new 3d bluray players come out or the ps3's firmware upgrade will those take the place of the pc.
I know there are dlp's that are 3d ready but this is a plasma forum

Mitsubishi has already announced they will release a 3D adapter (3DC-1000) for their DLP sets to conform to the 3D standard established by the BDA. The DLPs use the active shutter approach, so you will need to purchase glasses separately. (It's highly doubtful that Mitsu will include these with the adapter.)

Select Samsung DLPs and PDPs also are "3D-Ready", and will also need an adapter to render the time-shifted 3D imagery and sync with the LCD shutter lenses.

Once again, it is still unclear whether the circular polarized approach chosen by some content providers will be compatible (i.e. produce a viewable 3D effect) with active shutter display devices.
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post #23 of 39 Old 01-15-2010, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

3. Active shutter stereoscopic. This works by requiring the display to alternate images at a rate of 60Hz. Battery-powered active shutter glasses communicate with the display via IR to sync with the on-screen image, creating the superb 3D effect. This is the most expensive approach (the glasses aren't cheap), but will also produce the highest quality, as well as the most seamless, least-fatiguing 3D viewing. Active shutter will allow the full resolution of each frame to be maintained (1920x1080 x 2, one for each eye for Blu-ray), and this is the approach which Panasonic is pioneering. Quality is not compromised. Panasonic and Samsung have announced 2010 releases of AS direct-view displays.

This is what the Samsung PN42A450 (2008?) had built in.

The thing that would be a stepping stone for adding this to existing displays (without an external source) is that non-3D-ready displays do not have an output for the transmitter which communicates with the batter-powered glasses.

The 42A450 has a port on the back of the display to plug in a transmitter that can communicate with up to 4 pair of glasses (to ensure they are sync'd with the images displayed so you can see 3D).
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post #24 of 39 Old 01-15-2010, 11:15 AM
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The TV manufacturers want you to buy a new TV, a new Blu-ray player and a handful of glasses, so it won't be in their best interest to offer a decent converter for existing TVs. In the future a converter may exist, but my hunch is it will make a lot more sense to spend on better equipment as opposed to a bridge that sort of works.

I won't be able to buy new equipment unless off angle viewing is pretty the same as straight on viewing. I have 3 kids and having to put up with them fighting over who gets to sit where isn't worth it no matter how good 3D is.
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post #25 of 39 Old 01-16-2010, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

The TV manufacturers want you to buy a new TV, a new Blu-ray player and a handful of glasses, so it won't be in their best interest to offer a decent converter for existing TVs.

Agreed, plus the fact a converter for an existing TV may not perform as well, and with a new technology you want to avoid making negative impressions.

But I've got to imagine someone will step in to that gap ...
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post #26 of 39 Old 01-18-2010, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

Mitsubishi has already announced they will release a 3D adapter (3DC-1000) for their DLP sets to conform to the 3D standard established by the BDA. The DLPs use the active shutter approach, so you will need to purchase glasses separately. (It's highly doubtful that Mitsu will include these with the adapter.)

Select Samsung DLPs and PDPs also are "3D-Ready", and will also need an adapter to render the time-shifted 3D imagery and sync with the LCD shutter lenses.

Once again, it is still unclear whether the circular polarized approach chosen by some content providers will be compatible (i.e. produce a viewable 3D effect) with active shutter display devices.

This is correct, Mits' convert will work with their current 3D-Ready displays. Also, noted by a Mits rep, off the record of course, it'll work with Samsung 3D-Ready displays also, since they all use the same TI chip, using the checkerboard method.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #27 of 39 Old 01-19-2010, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

Even though those PS3 titles were already released, were they touched up in any way; were clips simply taken from the games and remastered in 3D?

I don't know anything specific about these demos, but game software calculates game action in 3D then renders images in 2D from positions and motions of game objects. To get stereoscopic images, I suppose, requires only modifying the the 2D rendering step. So it wouldn't be necessary to remaster 2D into 3D, since the game already knows about 3D. If the game has prerendered "cut scenes", these would have to be remastered to stereoscopic (though I don't know whether PS3 games actually use cut scenes).

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post #28 of 39 Old 01-19-2010, 06:00 AM
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Wonder if a 3D-device output to sync shutter glasses is absolutely necessary? Assuming the left-right sync signal is precise and standardized, perhaps coarse/fine do-it-yourself adjustments on glasses would work. If viewing/adjusting 3D material for best depth didn't work, perhaps calibrating with a left-right test pattern, included with 3D programming, would work. (Understand my Sony PS3 Blue-ray machine will be firmware upgradeable for 3D, and my Panasonic TH-65VX100U plasma handles a 120-Hz vertical rate, but it's uncertain the combo will deliver 3D.) -- John
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post #29 of 39 Old 01-20-2010, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Check this out, 3D using a Wii controller and an ordinary LCD screen.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=976
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post #30 of 39 Old 01-20-2010, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

2. Circular polarized stereoscopic. This is the method employed for virtually all 3D presentations in theaters today (IMAX and non-IMAX cinemas), including JC's Avatar. The technique works by sending out two separate (half-resolution) images through polarizing filters, one for each eye, and thus requires circular polarized glasses to view correctly. The important thing to be aware of is that full resolution is not maintained; the original captured/mastered resolution is halved. So for Blu-ray transfers, it would be 960 x 540 x 2, and for 2K projection (like in digital theaters), 2048x1152 becomes 1024x576 for 16:9 aspect ratio imagery.

Digital FP systems are required to produce this effect (except for 15/70 IMAX projection systems which use an advanced technique). Most non-IMAX systems installed in the US are DLP FPs, while LCoS FPs can also be used to render the effect. Samsung and JVC have announced direct-view displays for 2010 that will use CP technology.

It would seem to me that this would be possible-- if a display can handle 1080p60 (that I assume my 50G10 can do), then if the source instead puts out 1080i 60fps, then 30 of them would be the odd lines (clockwise polarization) and the other 30 the even lines (anti-clockwise polarization). Why would this not be possible? Is the TV itself doing something to the image that would preclude such a result from the proper input source?

just a thought..
..dane

 
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