Are 600Hz TV's worse than 120Hz or 240Hz TV's? Please Help - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys...

My family just bought a LG Plasma TV (PS11). It is 600Hz.

My father noticed that the picture is "jumping" a lot?
I thought he was just crazy because I didn't really notice anything? However, when he rented "The Hurt Locker" the picture was moving quite a bit but I attributed that to the camera man/ style of the movie?

Then my dad went to The Sony Store and the guy in the Sony store said that the signal to tv's are between 60Hz-240Hz. So my TV is too fast for this signal which is why it "jumps" because the signal can not catch up to the TV... is this true? this makes sense to me but i'm not sure??? He also said Plasmas are meant to be watched from at least 20 feet away???

He also said that Panasonic is the only company that makes a balancer to fix this problem? and that plasma's will be obsolete in the coming years because they use too much power?

If this is the case, we might have to return the TV =/ and look for another one..
I think this is really dumb.. you would think that the TV would just match the signal Hz and everything would be good?

Any Ideas?
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post #2 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx703 View Post

Then my dad went to The Sony Store and the guy in the Sony store said that the signal to tv's are between 60Hz-240Hz. So my TV is too fast for this signal which is why it "jumps" because the signal can not catch up to the TV... is this true?

It's possibly the biggest load of drivel I've ever heard. That salesman knows as much about TVs as I do about particle physics.
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post #3 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 09:04 PM
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It's hard to tell what kind of juddering you are seeing. It could be that the tv is just bigger than you are used to.

If you were watching a blu ray or vudu, the movie would be in 24hz and I think the LG would do 60hz in that case which might introduce some juddering. However this is what you would get from any regular DVD and from most new and old TVs, except some high end models.

I just watched the hurt locker myself on a 58" with proper 24p handling, and it was kind of difficult to watch at some points. It has some very uneven handheld camera work.

Most of the things your salesman said sound like BS.
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post #4 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 09:10 PM
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Worst salesman ever or worst troll ever, hard to tell.

I don't think there is any factual information there at all.
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post #5 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 09:54 PM
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LOL!! Did you ever think maybe the salesman was trying to get your old man to buy a Sony LCD?!

P.S. ~ I have to give the guy credit for trying at least..20 feet?!?! Hahahaha!!!
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post #6 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx703 View Post

Hey guys...

My family just bought a LG Plasma TV (PS11). It is 600Hz.

My father noticed that the picture is "jumping" a lot?
I thought he was just crazy because I didn't really notice anything? However, when he rented "The Hurt Locker" the picture was moving quite a bit but I attributed that to the camera man/ style of the movie?

Then my dad went to The Sony Store and the guy in the Sony store said that the signal to tv's are between 60Hz-240Hz. So my TV is too fast for this signal which is why it "jumps" because the signal can not catch up to the TV... is this true? this makes sense to me but i'm not sure??? He also said Plasmas are meant to be watched from at least 20 feet away???

He also said that Panasonic is the only company that makes a balancer to fix this problem? and that plasma's will be obsolete in the coming years because they use too much power?

If this is the case, we might have to return the TV =/ and look for another one..
I think this is really dumb.. you would think that the TV would just match the signal Hz and everything would be good?

Any Ideas?

#1 your plasma is 60hz. the 600hz is the sub field drive which is now I'm not 100% sure but I believe the SFD is just image processing.... I could be completely wrong on that though. It's used to ensure that you are getting a FULL 1080p motion resolution which is much better than anything you'll get on LCD, even on 240hz LCds


#2 NOTHING will be sending a 240hz signal to your tv. Movies are 24hz, TV is 30hz, and everything else will be 60hz.


#3 don't ever listen to anybody at the sony store because not one person that works there knows anything about any products from my experience... even best buy's employees are more educated(though they are still going to push LCD on you because that gives the biggest profit margin)


#4 it sounds like what you're describing is film judder which is supposed to be there......... any purist will tell you that motion smoothing makes the image look worse
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post #7 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 11:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx703 View Post

Hey guys...

My family just bought a LG Plasma TV (PS11). It is 600Hz.

My father noticed that the picture is "jumping" a lot?
I thought he was just crazy because I didn't really notice anything? However, when he rented "The Hurt Locker" the picture was moving quite a bit but I attributed that to the camera man/ style of the movie?

Then my dad went to The Sony Store and the guy in the Sony store said that the signal to tv's are between 60Hz-240Hz. So my TV is too fast for this signal which is why it "jumps" because the signal can not catch up to the TV... is this true? this makes sense to me but i'm not sure??? He also said Plasmas are meant to be watched from at least 20 feet away???

He also said that Panasonic is the only company that makes a balancer to fix this problem? and that plasma's will be obsolete in the coming years because they use too much power?

If this is the case, we might have to return the TV =/ and look for another one..
I think this is really dumb.. you would think that the TV would just match the signal Hz and everything would be good?

Any Ideas?

was the guy working at the Sony store named ramazur?
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post #8 of 22 Old 01-17-2010, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AVJunkie2010 View Post

was the guy working at the Sony store named ramazur?

umm I do not believe so? is ramazur a inside joke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

#1 your plasma is 60hz. the 600hz is the sub field drive which is now I'm not 100% sure but I believe the SFD is just image processing.... I could be completely wrong on that though. It's used to ensure that you are getting a FULL 1080p motion resolution which is much better than anything you'll get on LCD, even on 240hz LCds


#2 NOTHING will be sending a 240hz signal to your tv. Movies are 24hz, TV is 30hz, and everything else will be 60hz.

So what you're saying is when people say their TV is 120Hz or 240 Hz it's actually not?
why would the TV being higher Hz compared to Movies? sorry i'm a little confused here.
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post #9 of 22 Old 01-18-2010, 12:01 AM
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600 Hz is standard on all plasmas

60/120/240 Hz are all LCD specs

The only thing wrong with your tv is the LG on it... Horrible brand IMO ... better get ready for the repairs the tvs gonna need lol
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post #10 of 22 Old 01-18-2010, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Pair4Dimes View Post

600 Hz is standard on all plasmas

60/120/240 Hz are all LCD specs

The only thing wrong with your tv is the LG on it... Horrible brand IMO ... better get ready for the repairs the tvs gonna need lol

I don't like LG"s plasmas since they have all the same problems that Samsung's sets have........ but LG's LEDs are terrific. The LH90 is one of the best tvs out there
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post #11 of 22 Old 01-18-2010, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mx703 View Post

...So what you're saying is when people say their TV is 120Hz or 240 Hz it's actually not?
why would the TV being higher Hz compared to Movies? sorry i'm a little confused here.

Their LCD TVs are 120 or 240 hz. But No 2D signal is faster than 60hz.

LCDs have problems with fast motion (sports). They fix this by displaying imaginary frames between the real frames. This is why they need 120hz to display 1 imaginary frame between each two real frames. They create the frames by interpolation.

The 240 is a bunch of hype so they can claim that their picture is as good as plasma. The only real reason for 240 hz would be for 3D.

120hz is also used to display bluray movies at true 24hz. Blurays are only 24hz the same as film. On a 60hz (or on most plasmas) the blurays are displayed with a 3:2 pull down. This means that one frame is displayed 3 times and the next 2. This is the way that movies have always been displayed on TV. Higher end plasmas and LCDs with 120 or 240 hz can display the movie at true 24hz.

You can search the forums for 24hz. Some say 24hz is better. Others say it is not. Search for Cnet reviews of 24hz. Personally I think it is a bunch of hype to sell more expensive TVs. But others differ and say it is the only way to watch movies on bluray. I have never had a tv that shows true 24hz so my opinion is purely based on reviews and sour grapes. (I don't want to spend that much on a TV).

Google plasma vs lcd, and 120 hz. Do some research. In the end you will most likely be very happy you bought a plasma.
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post #12 of 22 Old 01-18-2010, 04:55 AM
 
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The Pioneer Kuros are 72Hz (a multiple of 24) and are thus judder-free (aside from that judder which is inherent to 24fps aka film) and I would have to say this does make a difference in terms of smoothness with camera pans (the rolling of credits also reveals this).
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post #13 of 22 Old 01-19-2010, 10:54 AM
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theguyinthechair nailed it when he said all salespeople will push LCD the margins are much higher. Not sure exactly why but I have heard this from a few sources including one installer friend who actually shared with me what I believe to be his costs and sell prices.
He makes about 3x the profit when installing a new LCD vs. a new Plasma right now at current street prices vs. cost.
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post #14 of 22 Old 01-19-2010, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The Pioneer Kuros are 72Hz (a multiple of 24) and are thus judder-free (aside from that judder which is inherent to 24fps aka film) and I would have to say this does make a difference in terms of smoothness with camera pans (the rolling of credits also reveals this).

The Pioneers are 72Hz only for 24Hz content. Just as the latest higher end Panasonic and Samsungs are 96Hz for the same reason, so that they are all multiples of the native 24Hz (older and cheaper models may have 48Hz). For everything else -- such as TV programming -- they all operate at 60Hz.

LCD's that operate at 120 and 240Hz are getting 60Hz from the TV receiver or DVD player and just repeating frames -- the same prinicple behind 48, 72 and 96Hz for 24Hz blu-ray content.
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post #15 of 22 Old 01-19-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx703 View Post

...the guy in the Sony store said that the signal to tv's are between 60Hz-240Hz. So my TV is too fast for this signal which is why it "jumps" because the signal can not catch up to the TV...

That's hilarious.

To the OP, in case it hasn't been obvious yet... That salesman is full of sh!t and the advice he gave you should be ignored.

Casey

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post #16 of 22 Old 01-19-2010, 01:39 PM
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Funny stuff man. I would like to talk to this salesman. I mean do they just make this stuff up on the spot? Or do they have meetings with good false info to shell out to unsuspecting customers.
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post #17 of 22 Old 01-19-2010, 03:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

The Pioneers are 72Hz only for 24Hz content. Just as the latest higher end Panasonic and Samsungs are 96Hz for the same reason, so that they are all multiples of the native 24Hz (older and cheaper models may have 48Hz). For everything else -- such as TV programming -- they all operate at 60Hz.

LCD's that operate at 120 and 240Hz are getting 60Hz from the TV receiver or DVD player and just repeating frames -- the same prinicple behind 48, 72 and 96Hz for 24Hz blu-ray content.

I really wasn't trying to contribute to an LCD/Plasma feud, just explaining to the prior poster how true 24fps support makes a visible difference.
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post #18 of 22 Old 01-24-2010, 09:49 AM
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I'm a new Pioneer 141 owner and just hooked up a new BDP-23FD blue ray player to it. I noticed that this player shows the HZ you are viewing 24, 50 and 60HZ..... Mine displays 60hz when viewing blue ray disc's. Is this normal??? This stuff is a little over my head.
I was in BB and saw a compelling display with three TV's showing (the same) various objects moving and spinning across the screens all at the same time. One TV was in 60hz, one in 120hz and the last in 240hz. You can definitely see a difference with motion blur and it getting better the higher the HZ went. Am I correct to assume these were LCD's and plasma's don't have these problems???
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post #19 of 22 Old 01-24-2010, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steamfitter View Post

I'm a new Pioneer 141 owner and just hooked up a new BDP-23FD blue ray player to it. I noticed that this player shows the HZ you are viewing 24, 50 and 60HZ..... Mine displays 60hz when viewing blue ray disc's. Is this normal??? This stuff is a little over my head.
I was in BB and saw a compelling display with three TV's showing (the same) various objects moving and spinning across the screens all at the same time. One TV was in 60hz, one in 120hz and the last in 240hz. You can definitely see a difference with motion blur and it getting better the higher the HZ went. Am I correct to assume these were LCD's and plasma's don't have these problems???

It's usually necessary to change a setting on the BD player's user menu to enable 24hz output, they default to 60.

The sets you saw at BB were LCDs with the interpolation feature turned on, and no, plasmas don't have this problem.

Steve S.
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post #20 of 22 Old 01-24-2010, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamfitter View Post

I'm a new Pioneer 141 owner and just hooked up a new BDP-23FD blue ray player to it. I noticed that this player shows the HZ you are viewing 24, 50 and 60HZ..... Mine displays 60hz when viewing blue ray disc's. Is this normal??? This stuff is a little over my head.
I was in BB and saw a compelling display with three TV's showing (the same) various objects moving and spinning across the screens all at the same time. One TV was in 60hz, one in 120hz and the last in 240hz. You can definitely see a difference with motion blur and it getting better the higher the HZ went. Am I correct to assume these were LCD's and plasma's don't have these problems???

Did you enjoy the picture on screen? If so don't worry about it.
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post #21 of 22 Old 01-24-2010, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by etherlore View Post

It's hard to tell what kind of juddering you are seeing. It could be that the tv is just bigger than you are used to.

If you were watching a blu ray or vudu, the movie would be in 24hz and I think the LG would do 60hz in that case which might introduce some juddering. However this is what you would get from any regular DVD and from most new and old TVs, except some high end models.

I just watched the hurt locker myself on a 58" with proper 24p handling, and it was kind of difficult to watch at some points. It has some very uneven handheld camera work.

Most of the things your salesman said sound like BS.

I saw this movie in the theaters and I agree - there are some moments that are difficult to watch. It's likely the OP was referring to some of the scenes where the camera was intentionally shakey to make the viewer feel uncomfortable with the on-screen action. Even with max de-judder on I don't think it would have made things better due to the original shot being that way.
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post #22 of 22 Old 01-24-2010, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post

Did you enjoy the picture on screen? If so don't worry about it.

While watching the planet earth series I noticed in a couple of shots while the camera was panning left or right I see a little blurring. Normal??? or do I try to make some setting adjustments as Steve S suggests.... Sorry for the newbie questions, just wanting to get the most out of what I paid for.
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