Need advice on tweaking my A/V system, and a NEW Plasma TV! Pioneer vs Panasonic.. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Paul Clancy View Post

First Haiti has nothing to do with what tv is better. The pio kuros remain better than any panasonic offering (so far)in every way, that's why they cost more.

The issue was never what was the best TV. It was more along the lines of - was the Pioneer worth that much more, and why does it look dim in comparison to newer TVs with similar settings? Read the original post before you type vomit like that.

The point about Haiti was, I felt that donating some cash to help aid them was a better investment than the (very slight) darker blacks of the Pioneer.

I don't watch TV during the week, I work. So I just didn't realize that it was as bad as it was until I watched a special that my wife dvr'd.

Getting back to the point... I still think the Samsung 860 looks the best, but even the two Ive seen in stores buzz, so I gave up on those... then I was trying to decide wether or not the S1 was suffice in comparison to the V10. The Kuro was on my list as it always was simply because of ratings, and I could of bought it for $3499... but "my" eyes didn't see enough of a difference to spend another $800 on it... the V10 was pretty close...

As for anyone that was trying to compare the S1 vs the V10 as I was... I will say, despite the specs on paper, and Panasonics reps on the phone telling me that the S1 and V10 have the same exact display aside from the 24P... they are worlds apart. Like comparing a DLP vs an LED - no match - the V10 is definitely superior in many ways.
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post #32 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 07:24 AM
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There's nothing "very slight" about the difference in black levels assuming it's properly configured, hooked up and in a more home-like environment than BB/Magnolia.

Depending on what model you were looking at - which you still haven't revealed - there could be several necessary adjustments that weren't made that could dramatically affect the picture-quality. Nearly every Kuro I've ever seen in BB has looked mediocre at best.

But all that aside, good on you for the donation.
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post #33 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I was also looking for advice on calibration and wires as well...

Does calibration have anything to do with clarity or just colors?

Is an HDMI and HDMI? Or is there anything better that has come out with proof of a better picture / sound since the extensive studies done by some independent labs a couple of years ago?
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post #34 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

There's nothing "very slight" about the difference in black levels assuming it's properly configured, hooked up and in a more home-like environment than BB/Magnolia.

Depending on what model you were looking at - which you still haven't revealed - there could be several necessary adjustments that weren't made that could dramatically affect the picture-quality. Nearly every Kuro I've ever seen in BB has looked mediocre at best.

But all that aside, good on you for the donation.

Thanks... I was considering the Kuro 6020... the one on the wall in Magnolia BB was a 50" Elite - still dont know the model # myself...

Btw, the last deciding factor for me was it seems that many people have buzzing problems from these sets too... I can't be bothered with returning a 3rd TV!!!
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post #35 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by donsantos View Post

The Panasonics that I saw today at the store looked blurry had very noticable color banding and color crawling artifacts. Also the whites looked yellowish. After all this hype I thought it would be a better tv when I saw it in person. In 500 hours you might run into the black levels doubling on you.

I ended up purchasing a kuro elite signature 101fd. I got a super deal on it too.

Can't wait for it!

Moral of the story, is you can't trust what you see at even a Magnolia unless all the TVs are running direct Blu Ray feeds, they've been tweaked reasonably, and the lighting is reasonably controlled.

Heck, I still see flesh tone artifacts in the Panasonics, but even back on former models when "clay face" that was a serious problem, folks said it was just a side effect of how the TV was setup in the store and they were able to tweak it out.

btw, calibration won't necessarily make your TV brighter. Unlocking the ISF modes of the Pioneer KRP, Elites, and Signature models sure can; but the goal of calibration is to make the TV accurate and I don't think any TVs are accurate at a peak contrast setting. The Pioneers in fact typically degrade at a contrast setting of 40 (in Pure mode) which is just the mid point of the scale.

You asked about clarity, but I'm not sure what you mean by it. Typically as part of a calibration any extra processing and sharpening is turned down or off to let the original source come through as it was meant to be seen. To a calibrator that's improving "clarity", but to someone who's irritated by artifacts in a poor signal or may prefer an "enhanced" picture it may be seen as a reduction in "clarity".

What a pro-calibration can and cannot do varies from model to model and what tweaks are available, but the goal is to create an accurate picture. That often leads to more "pop" because bright accurate colors will "pop" out of a background of dark accurate colors. If you just turned your contrast way up to try to do the same thing, you'd likely just end up clipping the brightest colors. You can't do it well without the correct knobs and a meter because as it was explained to me this weekend, there really aren't any adjustments you can make to a TV that won't throw everything else off.
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post #36 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 07:37 AM
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jrhunkler is no more a troll or passive aggressive than some of you who are taking his comments about the Pio way too personally.

I myself believe Pioneer made the best display, which remains to be seen if that holds true once proper reviews of the 2010 sets. If the original poster sees some aspects of the Pioneer in a different way then most of us, why the h3ll can't we all accept that and move on?

There wasn't anything offensive about the posts, people see things differently and because he couldn't be made to see that the Pio is brighter people got all up in arms. People, it's OK if given the choice between a Kuro and another set, a consumer goes with the "other" set, whether you believe those reasons are valid or not.

And blasting the Haiti comment is just ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with doing some reflection and deciding to use some of the savings for charity.
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post #37 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 10:11 AM
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I assume he created the thread because what he was perceiving at the store was not matching his expectation from reading up about the displays, albeit if he'd read enough he'd know it's very hard to judge TVs at a Best Buy.

Anyway, by posting he asked for feedback, and he's getting it. Nothing wrong with that, either. Of course anyone is free to buy whatever they prefer.
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post #38 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Couldn't take it anymore... Cancelled my order for the V10, and just ordered the Kuro, joined the cult... btw, when is our next secret meeting?

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post #39 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Couldn't take it anymore... Cancelled my order for the V10, and just ordered the Kuro, joined the cult... btw, when is our next secret meeting?


Which Pioneer did you order? Are you getting it from BB and which one?
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post #40 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AVJunkie2010 View Post

Which Pioneer did you order? Are you getting it from BB and which one?

Yes, BB-Magnolia, and it's the Pioneer Kuro 60" Model: PDP-6020FD --- of course they told me I got the last one... lol
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post #41 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Yes, BB-Magnolia, and it's the Pioneer Kuro 60" Model: PDP-6020FD --- of course they told me I got the last one... lol

Everybody gets the last one.
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post #42 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post

Everybody gets the last one.

UPDATE: They said they have 2 more allocated to them that they could order from their "district distributor" if anyone in interested. BB in 33410 (Legacy Location) --- They gave me Free Calibration and I added the Pioneer Blu Ray to the package... Model # BDP-320. Everything cost me $3,800 Delivered. ($3,499 for the Kuro 6020 and $299 for the Blu Ray) --- I'm a happy camper.

Thanks again for beating some sense into me. If money was the main primary objective here, I must say, the V10 is definitely not far behind the 6020. Most people would never even notice a difference, sitting in the living room... but I knew I would, which is why I came here.
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post #43 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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One more thing... now knowing Ill have the Kuro 6020 hooked up with a BDP-320, is the Harman Kardon AVR-247 suffice for this system, (with Jamo Surround Sound) - or will I see a "substantial" upgrade in sound and picture quality with something else... possibly made from Pioneer?
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post #44 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

UPDATE: They said they have 2 more allocated to them that they could order from their "district distributor" if anyone in interested. BB in 33410 (Legacy Location) --- They gave me Free Calibration and I added the Pioneer Blu Ray to the package... Model # BDP-320. Everything cost me $3,800 Delivered. ($3,499 for the Kuro 6020 and $299 for the Blu Ray) --- I'm a happy camper.

Thanks again for beating some sense into me. If money was the main primary objective here, I must say, the V10 is definitely not far behind the 6020. Most people would never even notice a difference, sitting in the living room... but I knew I would, which is why I came here.

Sweet deal.
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post #45 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 03:12 PM
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Just so you feel even better, I returned three V10s due to horrible buzzing, line bleeding and elevated black levels.

Buzzing so bad that I could hear it over my surround sound during gaming.

As a heads up on your 6020, it does emit a constant buzz from the front of the panel...but this can be corrected by putting it on Power Save 2. But it's nothing to worry about, trust me.

After having the buzzing Samsungs and V10s...if anybody I would be paranoid about the buzzing it would be me, and I can most definitely live with the 6020.
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post #46 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AberLink View Post

Just so you feel even better, I returned three V10s due to horrible buzzing, line bleeding and elevated black levels.

Buzzing so bad that I could hear it over my surround sound during gaming.

As a heads up on your 6020, it does emit a constant buzz from the front of the panel...but this can be corrected by putting it on Power Save 2. But it's nothing to worry about, trust me.

After having the buzzing Samsungs and V10s...if anybody I would be paranoid about the buzzing it would be me, and I can most definitely live with the 6020.

INTERESTING... I've NEVER heard about a buzzing issue with the V10... in comparison to the Samsung 860... is it anywhere near this bad (if you been unlucky enough to try one of these like me and many others lol) I hope your right and it goes away (if it does have it) with the power save 2 mode... thanks for the heads up... I hate buzzing... a very mild, normal electronics sound is ok, but the bees-nest sound of the Sammy was enough to go mad and smash the darn thing...
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post #47 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

One more thing... now knowing Ill have the Kuro 6020 hooked up with a BDP-320, is the Harman Kardon AVR-247 suffice for this system, (with Jamo Surround Sound) - or will I see a "substantial" upgrade in sound and picture quality with something else... possibly made from Pioneer?

The Harmon Kardon is an entry level receiver so there's always room for improvements there but it also comes at a cost. It also doesn't provide the newest codecs (DTS HDMA or DD THD) from what I can tell so you won't get the max benefit that's available from Blu Ray. The Pioneer Elites with the ICE amps are very nice and well respected. I have the Elite version prior to the ICE amps (92thx) and it's been awesome also. Denon and Onkyo also make some nice receivers and like anything the sky's the limit depending on what you want to spend,

As for speakers, not to sure which Jamos you have but there again improvement is available if you're willing to spend as it all depends on what your budget is. If I were looking to upgrade anything first, I would make sure I have a quality powered sub, then a new receiver with the new codecs and then speakers. Nice thing about audio is you can build it as the budget allows and doesn't have to be all at once.
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post #48 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AVJunkie2010 View Post

The Harmon Kardon is an entry level receiver so there's always room for improvements there but it also comes at a cost. It also doesn't provide the newest codecs (DTS HDMA or DD THD) from what I can tell so you won't get the max benefit that's available from Blu Ray. The Pioneer Elites with the ICE amps are very nice and well respected. I have the Elite version prior to the ICE amps (92thx) and it's been awesome also. Denon and Onkyo also make some nice receivers and like anything the sky's the limit depending on what you want to spend,

As for speakers, not to sure which Jamos you have but there again improvement is available if you're willing to spend as it all depends on what your budget is. If I were looking to upgrade anything first, I would make sure I have a quality powered sub, then a new receiver with the new codecs and then speakers. Nice thing about audio is you can build it as the budget allows and doesn't have to be all at once.

I have the Jamo A 102 HCS 5 with (2) additional "A 10 SUR" to make a 7.1... they sound incredible IMO with the AVR-247 so I can only imagine what upgrading can do... they sound just as good as some of the definitive technology speakers in BB-Magnolia... So I *think* I'm happy with these at least at this point... this is still all in a great room area, not the perfect acoustics, or placement of speakers at this point... so I don't want to go too crazy (yet) ...

I'm looking to spend about $1k max on a new receiver. What would you recommend?
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post #49 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

INTERESTING... I've NEVER heard about a buzzing issue with the V10... in comparison to the Samsung 860... is it anywhere near this bad (if you been unlucky enough to try one of these like me and many others lol) I hope your right and it goes away (if it does have it) with the power save 2 mode... thanks for the heads up... I hate buzzing... a very mild, normal electronics sound is ok, but the bees-nest sound of the Sammy was enough to go mad and smash the darn thing...

My V10s were definitely defective. They buzzed way louder than the Samsungs I had, and that's saying something lol.

The 6020 is a mild buzz. I'm watching football right now and don't even notice it (power save mode off). I can't stress enough how paranoid I am about buzzing, so that should be a sigh of relief.

Make sure you break in your TV. It will suck and you won't be able to use the TV for about a week, but trust me...it's worth it. Of course, it's totally up to you. You can find more information here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053444 If you don't have a DVD burner, I can send you the DVD that I used.

Also, I would ask Best Buy to calibrate your TV after the 150 hour break in period. Otherwise their calibration will end up changing after a while. Yet again, just a recommendation.

I've had this TV under a microscope so far and I love it.
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post #50 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AberLink View Post

My V10s were definitely defective. They buzzed way louder than the Samsungs I had, and that's saying something lol.

The 6020 is a mild buzz. I'm watching football right now and don't even notice it (power save mode off). I can't stress enough how paranoid I am about buzzing, so that should be a sigh of relief.

Make sure you break in your TV. It will suck and you won't be able to use the TV for about a week, but trust me...it's worth it. Of course, it's totally up to you. You can find more information here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053444 If you don't have a DVD burner, I can send you the DVD that I used.

Also, I would ask Best Buy to calibrate your TV after the 150 hour break in period. Otherwise their calibration will end up changing after a while. Yet again, just a recommendation.

I've had this TV under a microscope so far and I love it.

Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it. I will do whatever it takes to achieve the best picture, no problem. I can burn a DVD, so which one exactly is it I'm downloading the file of? - Jason
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post #51 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 06:29 PM
 
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No, don't ask Best Buy for calibration...check with the professionals who are recommended here, like Avical. And you can use a USB flash drive to conduct the break-in as well, if you so choose.
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post #52 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it. I will do whatever it takes to achieve the best picture, no problem. I can burn a DVD, so which one exactly is it I'm downloading the file of? - Jason

Glad to help man.

Here's the DVD file: http://www.eaprogramming.com/downloa..._DVD_R_ISO.zip

Set up your DVD player for "Title Loop" and keep it on for 150 hours straight. (I hope you have another TV to watch in the mean time...hell, I played my Nintendo DSi quite a bit during this period, heh).

The thumbdrive file should work too, but I like how you can do a loop with the DVD. I'm not sure about the thumbdrive, but that would probably be the same.

This process ages all your pixels evenly and prevents image retention and burn in. I haven't seen ANY image retention at all. Not even after a long gaming session. Good luck.
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post #53 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 06:57 PM
 
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Yes, you can loop a slideshow with the USB drive. I much prefer that over wearing down the mechanics of an optical drive.
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post #54 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 07:04 PM
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New here, did a Google search on the S1 vs V10, and the exact thoughts that Ive had stuck in my head for days now, were posted already! I found a great thread, but it was over 130+ days old, so I figured I would start a new one...

I'm personally torn between the following Plasma's, and I've included my personal Pro / Con opinions. Would love to hear what some true videophiles have to say. I'm tired of reading paid for reviews on the bigger named review sites.

60 Pioneer Kuro 6020 - PRO: Super Clear CON: Very Dim
58 Panasonic V10 - PRO: Very Clear, yet Warm CON: Backordered from Panasonic, and I don't trust online stores to deliver in one piece, and don't feel like waiting 6 weeks for a TV, unless it's a far superior 2010 secret model I don't know about!
58 Panasonic S1 - PRO: Price, Picture is pretty clear CON: For some reason, side by side, same settings (both cinema mode) the 58 looked noticeably clearer than the 65 (from about 15 ft away) - I have yet to see a 65" that looks as good as a 58"... but would love one if it existed!
58" Samsung 860 - I personally think (in my local Best Buy's Magnolia store) that the 58" Samsung 860 was the best all around picture, however, I went through 2 sets already trying to get one that doesn't have the infamous BUZZ! Omg, so very annoying the picture on it is clear, nice colors, and bright, but not too bright

Also, I have a question about Professional Calibration --- Does it do anything for clarity and brightness? ...or is it just adjusting the color temperatures, etc according to the surrounding lighting conditions, etc. I don't mind spending some money for something I'm really going to enjoy, however, I hate blowing even $1 out of principal on hype and myths...

My Stuff:

A/V Receiver: Harman Kardon AVR247 7.1 Receiver
Surround Sound: Jamo ACS Satellite Surround Sound System (sounds amazing for the $300 I spent on them --- I know there's much better out there, but until I get a dedicated home theater room, I'm waiting for a big move in that arena - I have Dynaudio Components in my car, and will probably go with them when I make this move!)

Watching Movies: Bluray/PS3 >> I was recently told that the PS3 isn't the best source for Blu Ray? I thought everybody licenses the same Blu Ray Technology from Sony?

Watching Regular TV: Direct TV

Wiring: I'm using Rocket Fish HDMI's. I've read a signal is a signal when it comes to HDMI's? (I purchased a $150 Monster HDMI Cable along with a Monster power surge protector / line conditioner, and it did absolutely nothing. I returned it the same day)

-- Would love to hear of any recommendations if any, for me to improve my current setup? Thanks in advance!



Jason

Jason, i would lean towards the Samsung 860 or 6020. depending on the lighting of your room, i could make the argument for both. the rising black levels of the 11g and 12g panasonics are worrisome
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post #55 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 08:05 PM
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grats jr and welcome the the club!
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post #56 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

No, don't ask Best Buy for calibration...check with the professionals who are recommended here, like Avical. And you can use a USB flash drive to conduct the break-in as well, if you so choose.

I'll check to see if Avical is in my area (33410-FL) but I got the calibration through Best Buy for free... so Ill use it if I have to unless they could possibly make it "worse"???

- I do have another TV, so the break-I'm looping period won't be that big of a deal...

So, what is the exact instructions to use this Looping method/USB drive? Thx bunches!
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post #57 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Couldn't take it anymore... Cancelled my order for the V10, and just ordered the Kuro, joined the cult... btw, when is our next secret meeting?


Congrats on your purchase.

If the 6020 disappointments you in your home... at least you have the 30 day return period.

btw, the PS3 is a terrific Blu-Ray player, and $100 HDMI cables and power conditioners are modern day snake oil in *most* situations.

I would point out that the laser has worn out on my first PS3 and is no longer reliable, and apparently that's fairly common. I'm not sure if Sony went extra cheap, or if other Blu-Ray players are suffering the same after enough hours of use. On the bright side, there's quite the side market to retrofit PS3's with refurbished laser assemblies.
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post #58 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Congrats on your purchase.

If the 6020 disappointments you in your home... at least you have the 30 day return period.

btw, the PS3 is a terrific Blu-Ray player, and $100 HDMI cables and power conditioners are modern day snake oil in *most* situations.

I would point out that the laser has worn out on my first PS3 and is no longer reliable, and apparently that's fairly common. I'm not sure if Sony went extra cheap, or if other Blu-Ray players are suffering the same after enough hours of use. On the bright side, there's quite the side market to retrofit PS3's with refurbished laser assemblies.

Thanks, but I (sort of) needed a second Blu-Ray player anyway... I may hock the PS3, as I never used it for games anyway... I was told the PS3 isn't capable of handling the 7.1 surround signals... but then again, Im guessing thats what my A/V receiver is for? lol
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post #59 of 153 Old 01-24-2010, 10:42 PM
 
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I'll check to see if Avical is in my area (33410-FL) but I got the calibration through Best Buy for free... so Ill use it if I have to unless they could possibly make it "worse"???

- I do have another TV, so the break-I'm looping period won't be that big of a deal...

So, what is the exact instructions to use this Looping method/USB drive? Thx bunches!

In that case, give Best Buy a shot. I must've read too quickly to see you were entitled to a free calibration. I can't imagine them making it worse than stock PQ...but you never know. Avical actually conducts tours to various locales and you set up an appointment with them approximately a month in advance. You'll have to check with them on tour information...there is also a thread here detailing all the calibrators nationwide who have experience with the Non-Elite X020 Kuros. I don't have it off-hand but would recommend a search if interested.

The break-in options are fairly self-explanatory. I'm going by a vague memory here. However, you simply copy Evangelo's files to a blank drive (preferably), insert it into the Pioneer, power it on and directory access to the drive should auto-load. Open the Evangelo slides folder from there. If you then click the "Tools" button (remote), you can navigate to the slide show settings screen (using the up and down navigation arrows) and choose a slide duration time of 10 seconds and select to loop the slide show continuously (crucial...otherwise you risk burn-in). There are also recommended PQ settings for break-in. Check the owners' thread (the sticky above) for more specific information.
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post #60 of 153 Old 01-25-2010, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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In that case, give Best Buy a shot. I must've read too quickly to see you were entitled to a free calibration. I can't imagine them making it worse than stock PQ...but you never know. Avical actually conducts tours to various locales and you set up an appointment with them approximately a month in advance. You'll have to check with them on tour information...there is also a thread here detailing all the calibrators nationwide who have experience with the Non-Elite X020 Kuros. I don't have it off-hand but would recommend a search if interested.

The break-in options are fairly self-explanatory. I'm going by a vague memory here. However, you simply copy Evangelo's files to a blank drive (preferably), insert it into the Pioneer, power it on and directory access to the drive should auto-load. Open the Evangelo slides folder from there. If you then click the "Tools" button (remote), you can navigate to the slide show settings screen (using the up and down navigation arrows) and choose a slide duration time of 10 seconds and select to loop the slide show continuously (crucial...otherwise you risk burn-in). There are also recommended PQ settings for break-in. Check the owners' thread (the sticky above) for more specific information.

Thanks! Looking fwd to a perfect picture
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