Need advice on tweaking my A/V system, and a NEW Plasma TV! Pioneer vs Panasonic.. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ll Viper ll View Post

Patiently?? Haha, that's a good one. Maybe if you weren't so set on jumping to every polarizing conclusion, you'd have the sense to at least check and see that the 60 inch model you're talking about is LED edge lit, NOT LED local dimming like the XBR8.

And you wonder why people aren't falling overthemselves to help you after you mostly disregard good information in favor of rash decisions.

Hey Mr. Nice Guy... If you actually took the time to read my posts, I have been complaining about the brightness of the KURO the whole time. I tried a few TV's based on the input I've received from here and a few other places as well. It is what it is. The Pioneer is the best TV I've tried (in the dark)

Unfortunately, that wouldn't work for me. I gave it a shot. The next best TV I've tried was the Samsung 860 - although some people rate this better than the Kuro's... I have yet to actually see/hear one that doesn't buzz... or my search would have ended with the 2nd TV I've ordered. The SONY has always been my favorite TV when looking at them in Best Buy, but they didn't come any bigger than 55" (which was a little small for the wall it's going on/against) and the 65" was an inferior picture, with a higher price tag simply because of it's size...

The whites are white, not "off-white or cream" like the most Plasma's, and not Blue-ish-Purple like the other LED/LCD's. The Red's were identical to the Kuro's, Blacks were just about as black, and the picture in general appeared to be just as crisp. I have been anti-LCD's since I bought my first Plasma (42" Panny in 2006) b/c of their grey-ish blacks, and their flat screens... but the Sony's seem like they are in a whole different league. Almost like a different technology all together... somewhere in-between LED's and Plasma's... which IMO is the perfect picture. They don't do "anything" else right, but IMO they perfected the TV...

I think this TV, if anything like the XBR8 that I've been admiring, (I couldn't fathom it being "much" better) could very well be the perfect TV... for me anyway... I realize that everyone has their own opinions... and I realize that many "PRO's" will still choose the Plasma's... but I think you would have to just be completely lying to yourself if you looked at the two TV's side by side and said that the Sony didn't look better. It's sort of like trying to deny the fact that Apple is the most intuitive, far superior computer maker... or cell phone maker for that matter. Pioneer (now Panasonic from what I've heard of the 2010 models) rules the Plasma market, as Sony rules the LCD market, as Apple rules the Cell Phone / PDA / MP3 market...

Anyway, thanks for your useless input, now go back to sleep.
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post #92 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 03:40 PM
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The edge-lit Sony you're looking at is probably not going to have the same picture quality of the locally-dimmed XBR8. In fact, it may even be a good deal behind. It's a step backwards in technology, IMO, but that's also why the MSRP is a much lower number.

And I auditioned the XBR8 when I was TV shopping for quite a while. It was fantastic for the most part, but I liked the Pioneer Elites a good deal better, so I bought one. I never lie to myself when several thousand dollars are involved.

Did you actually play with the settings on your 6020? Changing the AV modes is not the same as changing the settings.

Contrast? Brightness? Color? Sharpness? Anything? Unless you watched your 860s in Dynamic mode, the 6020 should be able to run with it in terms of brightness if you mess with the controls properly, unless it's broken or you have it in a power-savings mode.

In any case, if you have a lot of direct lighting hitting the screen, a matte screen will probably serve you best.
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post #93 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ll Viper ll View Post

Patiently?? Haha, that's a good one. Maybe if you weren't so set on jumping to every polarizing conclusion, you'd have the sense to at least check and see that the 60 inch model you're talking about is LED edge lit, NOT LED local dimming like the XBR8.

And you wonder why people aren't falling overthemselves to help you after you mostly disregard good information in favor of rash decisions.

Right on.
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post #94 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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This TV is replacing the XBR10, so I'm not sure why any of you would think it's inferior? I guess I'll wait and see the differences... They say it's shipping tomorrow... since this morning, it changed to IN STOCk on Sony's website...
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post #95 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

This TV is replacing the XBR10, so I'm not sure why any of you would think it's inferior? I guess I'll wait and see the differences... They say it's shipping tomorrow... since this morning, it changed to IN STOCk on Sony's website...

The XBR10 in no way produced/es the same outstanding PQ as does/did the XBR8.
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post #96 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Regardless, at this point, the Kuro is just too dim for my great room... one question though... What settings other than the picture modes can i access? A/V modes?
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post #97 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 04:49 PM
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Don't let Sony's numbering scheme fool you. The XBR8 is still the best LCD they've made to date, and by a good margin.

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What settings other than the picture modes can i access? A/V modes?

Pictures modes are just that: modes. There are settings within each picture mode. Some are locked - as I believe Optimum is. Others offer Contrast (sets the overall brightness of the picture), Brightness, Color, Tint, Sharpness, etc. If you haven't adjusted any of these then it's not surprising that the picture is sub-optimal. Also make sure that the Powersave function is Off, as it reduces brightness when engaged. Sadly the 6020 has very limited controls, but there should be enough there to dial in a reasonably good picture.
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post #98 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Don't let Sony's numbering scheme fool you. The XBR8 is still the best LCD they've made to date, and by a good margin.



Pictures modes are just that: modes. There are settings within each picture mode. Some are locked - as I believe Optimum is. Others offer Contrast (sets the overall brightness of the picture), Brightness, Color, Tint, Sharpness, etc. If you haven't adjusted any of these then it's not surprising that the picture is sub-optimal. Also make sure that the Powersave function is Off, as it reduces brightness when engaged. Sadly the 6020 has very limited controls, but there should be enough there to dial in a reasonably good picture.

Like I said... Ive already tweaked the picture modes.. but someone mentioned A/V/ modes? Anyway... the picture is clear... no issues there... sharp, clear, colors are more than acceptable.. just the brightness is terrible... perfect TV for a bedroom actually IMO... if I had the spare change laying around Ide buy a 50" just for that... to replace my older Panny... but in no way will this work in a bright room..
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post #99 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 04:59 PM
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AV modes, picture modes...same thing.

I watch my KRP-500M in a bright room frequently. It's more than bright enough for my uses, and it can get brighter still.

Either you're comparing your 6020 to the factory Dynamic/Standard modes on the Samsungs - which while very bright have awful color/grayscale/detail rendition, or something is off with the TV.

Either way, good luck with the Sony.
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post #100 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 05:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Like I said... Ive already tweaked the picture modes.. but someone mentioned A/V/ modes? Anyway... the picture is clear... no issues there... sharp, clear, colors are more than acceptable.. just the brightness is terrible... perfect TV for a bedroom actually IMO... if I had the spare change laying around Ide buy a 50" just for that... to replace my older Panny... but in no way will this work in a bright room..

maybe a picture of your room and setup with the kuro would help people give you suggestions as to how it may best be used or another TV.
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post #101 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

AV modes, picture modes...same thing.

I watch my KRP-500M in a bright room frequently. It's more than bright enough for my uses, and it can get brighter still.

Either you're comparing your 6020 to the factory Dynamic/Standard modes on the Samsungs - which while very bright have awful color/grayscale/detail rendition, or something is off with the TV.

Either way, good luck with the Sony.

Seems to be the cut & paste answer to these TV's being to dim... "must be your set" - nnnnoooooo... I should have just went with my gut instinct when it was by far the dimmest picture in the store... even after all of the settings were tweaked to the best I could get them... I "thought" that all of these Kuro-lovers couldnt possibly be wrong... but guess what... they are! Its a DARK TV, period.
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post #102 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Seems to be the cut & paste answer to these TV's being to dim... "must be your set" - nnnnoooooo... I should have just went with my gut instinct when it was by far the dimmest picture in the store... even after all of the settings were tweaked to the best I could get them... I "thought" that all of these Kuro-lovers couldnt possibly be wrong... but guess what... they are! Its a DARK TV, period.

Your "tweaking" could not possibly come close to the full potential of the KURO line. Enjoy your Sony.

P.S. LOL @ you.
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post #103 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Seems to be the cut & paste answer to these TV's being to dim... "must be your set" - nnnnoooooo... I should have just went with my gut instinct when it was by far the dimmest picture in the store... even after all of the settings were tweaked to the best I could get them... I "thought" that all of these Kuro-lovers couldnt possibly be wrong... but guess what... they are! Its a DARK TV, period.

It is no darker to any significant degree than any Samsung or Panasonic plasma that isn't in one of it's bright factory "store" modes. You still haven't mentioned after several inquires what modes were in use on the Samsungs you had.

Many displays ship from the factory in their brightest mode in a vain attempt to outdo eachother on the wall at the big box stores. These modes are generally wildly inaccurate with lots of crushed/clipped detail, cranked up grayscale, overblown whites and radioactive colors (see: Samsung "Dynamic" and "Standard" and Panasonic "Vivid"). Some people prefer that sort of a look, and either you are one of those people, or something is off with the 6020. Pick one (or both).
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post #104 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 06:08 PM
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Forget about it, tbird - the guy doesn't know, doesn't care, but has all the answers. Not worth your while.
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post #105 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Forget about it, tbird - the guy doesn't know, doesn't care, but has all the answers. Not worth your while.

Right, I don't care... that's why I've wasted so much time in this forum. Your just one of those guys who can't handle it when other people don't agree with you. I know what I see. What's so difficult to understand about that?

And in what way do I have all the answers? Did you read this thread before responding? Sure doesn't sound like it. I've listened to everything anyone has had to say... and so far I have not received much "technical" information behind any of these "rock-solid, staple-opinions".

"The Kuro is the best" simply doesn't cut it. "The Kuro is just as bright as the Panny's and the Sammy's" doesn't qualify as an answer to my question in my book. Sounds to me like every person who spews answers such as those, is just trying to justify why they spent (at one time) in upwards of $6k? If I spent that, it wouldn't even a topic of conversation as it absolutely in NO way is worth THAT much more than any other TV mentioned here.

Unless you have personally measured the brightness with some sort of a technical tool that I don't have or know how to use... don't tell me that the Kuro is just as bright.. because it is what it is... and unless I'm missing a secret setting somewhere... it's "close" to the Panasonic, but the Samsung is so significantly brighter (in any mode by comparison) it's not even close.

I was wiling to give up that brightness to try and realize what all of the rave reviews are about... but I'm sorry if you don't agree with me... but when your wrong your wrong. And whether it's at my home - nice and dark, or its at the store with very bright fluorescent lighting obstructing an otherwise perfect picture... the Kuro is DIMMER. PERIOD. (and many have agreed with this in other thread I've spent hours reading)

I have played with every mode on every TV mentioned (for quite a while, with many different types of movies, TV, etc)... and YES, I HAVE answered this question several times. I would never watch TV in the "movie" or "cinema" modes on any of the TV's... they all just look like they have a tint over them... and almost too dark to see anything, not to mention they all seem somewhat blurry with the sharpness turned way dow or negative numbers...

I have compared the "custom" modes of both the Panasonic's and the Samsungs, and they both were able to retain their clarity and shadow details better than the Kuro when I tweaked them to my liking. The Kuro seems like its either very dark, or it loses its PQ all together when I turn up the brightness even a notch or two....

I don't like Dynamic or vivid on any of the TV's... I would say a nice blend of the brightness of those modes, with the darkness of the Kuro's Optimum settings would be great...

I'm not a complete imbecile when it comes to coloring, etc... I was just looking for some true, technical advice... and so far I haven't received any. For those of you who at least tried to answered some of my questions... with sincerity... Thank You. I guess there is always going to be some kuckle-heads on any forum that have nothing else better to do than to insult people's intelligence.

G'Nite...
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post #106 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:17 PM
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If you're cranking up the Contrast control, etc in any of the modes on the Samsungs/Panasonics to the point that they are significantly brighter than the 6020 in any if its modes, you are almost certainly wrecking detail in your whites, trashing your gamma, and are doing no favors to your color accuracy, amongst other things.

And yes, the brightness of all of these panels has been measured countless times by various people here and elsewhere using light sensors and related tools - but that is generally done post-calibration. And in such a state, the 6020 gives up little to nothing to the other plasmas.

But, as I questioned earlier, it seems you place more far importance on peak brightness than on image accuracy. That is certainly your prerogative where your money is concerned.
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post #107 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Right, I don't care... that's why I've wasted so much time in this forum. Your just one of those guys who can't handle it when other people don't agree with you. I know what I see. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Did you ever bother to research the actual light output on the displays as I suggested five days ago?
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post #108 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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If you're cranking up the Contrast control, etc in any of the modes on the Samsungs/Panasonics to the point that they are significantly brighter than the 6020 in any if its modes, you are almost certainly wrecking detail in your whites, trashing your gamma, and are doing no favors to your color accuracy, amongst other things.

And yes, the brightness of all of these panels has been measured countless times by various people here and elsewhere using light sensors and related tools - but that is generally done post-calibration. And in such a state, the 6020 gives up little to nothing to the other plasmas.

But, as I questioned earlier, it seems you place more far importance on peak brightness than on image accuracy. That is certainly your prerogative where your money is concerned.

I just want to see the TV without squinting. If that's what you consider focusing far more importance on brightness than accuracy, then guilty as charged. Accuracy is very good on all of the TV's mentioned in this thread... and that's pretty much agreed upon amongst all of the reviews. Some say the Panasonic's have more accurate coloring, some say the blacks are just as dark on the Samsung... one thing is absolutely without a doubt, indisputable. The Samsung looked the best (by a long shot) with a lot of natural sunlight coming into the room... I believe it's known to have the best anti-glare screen on the market, no? but anyway, the buzz was so terrible it's not even worth discussing any further. Some seem to be responding to my opinions as if I'm saying the Kuro sucks! I admit its a VERy good TV... but its just to dim (much dimmer than the Samsung, and of course in a completely different league from the Sony XBR8)

Because of the whole Backlit LED with local dimming vs the Edge Lit LED's... I'm once again confused on my choice of the new Sony. I didn't know there was that much of a difference between the two. Is anyone here going to tell me that the Sony XBR8 isn't a good, accurate picture? (it can always be turned down, if your taste says it's too bright!) On the Kuro, the brightest (without distorting the black levels) is too dim for my room - unless it's pitch dark, I could deal with it...
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post #109 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you ever bother to research the actual light output on the displays as I suggested five days ago?

Since I'm not a tech geek like some of the guys on here, I leave it up to what my eyes see, not what your's see... call me silly.

I was looking for technical reasons on why what I'm looking at is so much dimmer (no matter what settings any of the TV's at discussion were in or set to)

ie; Just to rate the brightness level, since so many people are in an uproar over this, and like to watch extremely dim dark TV's... The Kuro, in it's Dynamic mode... isn't nearly as bright as the Samsung its Standard mode. Get it?
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post #110 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:41 PM
 
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Since I'm not a tech geek like some of the guys on here, I leave it up to what my eyes see, not what your's see... call me silly.

I was looking for technical reasons on why what I'm looking at is so much dimmer (no matter what settings any of the TV's at discussion were in or set to)

ie; Just to rate the brightness level, since so many people are in an uproar over this, and like to watch extremely dim dark TV's... The Kuro, in it's Dynamic mode... isn't nearly as bright as the Samsung its Standard mode. Get it?

okay, let's keep it civil if you actually want help. Post some pictures of your room and the the placement of the Kuro and we can help evaluate things for you. Also post all of your settings that you have on it.
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post #111 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:41 PM
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The 860 has a great anti-glare filter. To get that level of anti-glare from a Pioneer you'd need an Elite or KRP panel. The 5020/6020's filter is not as strong and will wash out more quickly when lots of light hits it.

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I just want to see the TV without squinting.

I'm exactly not sure what this means. I've never had to squint even in the dimmer modes.

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If that's what you consider focusing far more importance on brightness than accuracy, then guilty as charged.

Accuracy and loads of brightness aren't mutually exclusive, but the plasmas being discussed can only get so bright before the picture is harmed in various ways. If you stay underneath that threshold then the Samsungs and Panasonics will be about as bright - or as "dim" - as the Pioneer.

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Because of the whole Backlit LED with local dimming vs the Edge Lit LED's... I'm once again confused on my choice of the new Sony. I didn't know there was that much of a difference between the two.

There are piles of discussion on this subject in the LCD forum - but suffice to say that on average, locally-dimmed panels are superior to edge-lit ones and are generally less problematic as well. I don't doubt that the Sony you are looking at will have a great picture, but I wouldn't expect to get XBR8 quality out of it.
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post #112 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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okay, let's keep it civil if you actually want help. Post some pictures of your room and the the placement of the Kuro and we can help evaluate things for you. Also post all of your settings that you have on it.

That wasn't an insult, just FYI... I wish I WAS a tech geek and learned this stuff years ago... that's all I was implying... I don't have the means or the knowledge to measure "light output" as Mr. Friendly mentioned...
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post #113 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The 860 has a great anti-glare filter. To get that level of anti-glare from a Pioneer you'd need an Elite or KRP panel. The 5020/6020's filter is not as strong and will wash out more quickly when lots of light hits it.



I'm exactly not sure what this means. I've never had to squint even in the dimmer modes.



Accuracy and loads of brightness aren't mutually exclusive, but the plasmas being discussed can only get so bright before the picture is harmed in various ways. If you stay underneath that threshold then the Samsungs and Panasonics will be about as bright - or as "dim" - as the Pioneer.



There are piles of discussion on this subject in the LCD forum - but suffice to say that on average, locally-dimmed panels are superior to edge-lit ones and are generally less problematic as well. I don't doubt that the Sony you are looking at will have a great picture, but I wouldn't expect to get XBR8 quality out of it.

I think I'll be ok... my Brothers several year old XBR5 52" still looks amazing... I've always liked Sony's LCD's far more than anyone else's... however, I have until next Monday to actually take delivery of the Sony and give up my Kuro... if the new Sony doesn't completely blow me out of the water, I'll keep the Kuro and just deal with the dimness (as my eyes see it) because eventually, it will be in a different room in a new house anyhow...

but one last thing that nobody has answered outright for me, unless I missed it somehow:

Does Professional Calibration add any brightness (if I wanted it) to the TV?

White is White. Not Off White, Not Cream. Not Blue. Does anyone else get this? I just want true whites! Maybe that's what I mean by "brighter" --- I dont want reds, greens, yellows, etc to be any brighter!!!???
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post #114 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

Since I'm not a tech geek like some of the guys on here, I leave it up to what my eyes see, not what your's see... call me silly.

You don't have to be a "tech geek" - others here have already done that work for you, by taking expensive equipment and measuring how much light the various displays put out, and posting the results.
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post #115 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 08:01 PM
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Does Professional Calibration add any brightness (if I wanted it) to the TV?

White is White. Not Off White, Not Cream. Not Blue. Does anyone else get this? I just want true whites! Maybe that's what I mean by "brighter" --- I dont want reds, greens, yellows, etc to be any brighter!!!???

If you are refering to the color of whites, and not the brightness of whites, then yes, calibration will certainly help.

The 6020 has no white balance controls by default so you're pretty much stuck with whatever the factory presets are. A pro-calibrator should be able to unlock these controls and adjust them correctly. Note that "correctly" may or may not be your personal idea of what a neutral white should look like. Also note that Best Buy will NOT do this as it requires a laptop to be plugged into the TV, which they don't allow.
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post #116 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 08:06 PM
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If he wants an LCD, he wants an LCD. 'Nuff said.
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post #117 of 153 Old 01-28-2010, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

If you are refering to the color of whites, and not the brightness of whites, then yes, calibration will certainly help.

The 6020 has no white balance controls by default so you're pretty much stuck with whatever the factory presets are. A pro-calibrator should be able to unlock these controls and adjust them correctly. Note that "correctly" may or may not be your personal idea of what a neutral white should look like. Also note that Best Buy will NOT do this as it requires a laptop to be plugged into the TV, which they don't allow.

I was told they DO hook a Laptop up to it when it was delivered my the GEEK SQUAD ironically lol.
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post #118 of 153 Old 01-29-2010, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Pics as requested:

Mode: "Optimum" - This is the best looking mode IMO... Notice how much "whiter" the ceiling is? On the Sony XBR8 - those whites would MATCH the ceiling! We'll see when the Sony is available to view...





So much for "Black" Blacks... looks medium grey - just like every other Plasma with any Sunlight coming in... the Samsung was definitely darker during the day with Sunlight... the Kuro is darker at night...

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post #119 of 153 Old 01-29-2010, 09:04 AM
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It's very difficult to judge the picture quality via camera photos, but IF these are an accurate indication of what you're seeing, then I have to maintain that something is off. Both of my Pioneers are much brighter looking than that when the room is well lit.
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post #120 of 153 Old 01-29-2010, 10:01 AM
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I've heard that unlocking isf-day mode will double your white levels.
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