Pioneer subwoofer question - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 01-31-2010, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I have read everywhere and came up with some answers but I still have one question. Ok so I just got the 111fd and I noticed it has the subwoofer out. For now I want to just use the stock speakers and add some bass til I throw down a considerable amount of money on a Surround sound setup. Because I may be moving so I want to move before I pick what setup I will get. Anyways from what I know it uses a LFE connection, so I started looking online. I haven't been able to find on BB's website anything that says what inputs subwoofers use. Do all newer sub woofers have this LFE input? Thanks.
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post #2 of 26 Old 01-31-2010, 07:13 PM
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Typically they don't list them as LFE inputs - just a plain-jane line level input is what is on the subs.
Bottom line - don't overthink things and just get whatever (separate) sub it is that you want to use in your future system and you'll be fine. (Don't get one that's part of a system where satellite speakers are connected directly to it)
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post #3 of 26 Old 01-31-2010, 07:49 PM
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Any sub you find in the $200-250+ range should have a LFE. Cheaper ones depending on model may have it if you use a single rca plug instead of dual-rca if it supports stereo and turn the crossover to max to take the sub's crossover out of the equation.
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post #4 of 26 Old 01-31-2010, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright cool thank you very much. They had a polk audio for 200+ something, I'll probably go check that out. Maybe I'll drop more, we'll see. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't some old dead connection that isn't used anymore.
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post #5 of 26 Old 01-31-2010, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post

Alright cool thank you very much. They had a polk audio for 200+ something, I'll probably go check that out. Maybe I'll drop more, we'll see. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't some old dead connection that isn't used anymore.

Thanks for the thread and the answers everyone... I had the exact same question as I will be receiving my PDP-5020 and am not interested at present in putting system in place.

cool.
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post #6 of 26 Old 01-31-2010, 11:28 PM
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Yes, to clarify slightly more - any subwoofer within the past 2 maybe 3 years that you can presently buy in that price-range. You should check on the model to make sure, but unless you're buying some closeout from several years ago or a random sub off craigslist you shouldn't have to worry about it. Feel free to post any models you're looking at if you're uncertain which it has and want to check. Cheers!
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post #7 of 26 Old 02-01-2010, 12:22 AM
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Thanks for the thread and the answers everyone... I had the exact same question as I will be receiving my PDP-5020 and am not interested at present in putting system in place.

cool.

A tight subwoofer works great on the Kuro TV models and is a feature you don't find on many displays so enjoy it. I use mine on the 6020 even though I also have a full surround system connected as well.

The tight 2.1 sound is sometime convenient to use straight from the TV. It can be configured with different settings per each A/V mode and sounds esp. good on music content.

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post #8 of 26 Old 02-01-2010, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eissman View Post

Thanks for the thread and the answers everyone... I had the exact same question as I will be receiving my PDP-5020 and am not interested at present in putting system in place.

cool.

Glad to be as uneducated as you lol. Thanks though everyone, I think I might go into best buy and look. If I look online I'll post some more models here. I bought my Pioneer at BB so I have like 3000 reward points now so I'm racking em up like crazy and I want my free gift certificates
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post #9 of 26 Old 02-01-2010, 08:41 AM
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Please list Subwoofers that would be recommended.

Any. Thanks.
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post #10 of 26 Old 02-01-2010, 10:10 AM
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Many subs don't contain a specific LFE input. However they will have line level inputs. There is a subtle difference. An actual LFE input bypasses the subwoofers low pass filter and is used when you are using an AVRs bass management. The line level inputs don't bypass the subs low pass filter and you will often have a frequency range on the knob to set.

This is why people who use bass management in their AVRs will turn the knob all the way to the max to take the subs own low pass filter out of the equation since they are using the AVRs bass management.

Typically they are the same with that subtle difference but for most applications and the way they are used they end up being essentially the same. I find it much more of a rarity for a sub to have an LFE input. Most subs will have line level inputs and speaker level inputs.

As for subs it really can be a wide array depending on room dimensions and other factors however since you are looking at just a sub for the tv an excellent entry level sub that could also be used if you ever moved onto some external speakers would be Elemental Designs A2-300.

In its price range it is largely unmatched.
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post #11 of 26 Old 02-01-2010, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

Many subs don't contain a specific LFE input. However they will have line level inputs. There is a subtle difference. An actual LFE input bypasses the subwoofers low pass filter and is used when you are using an AVRs bass management. The line level inputs don't bypass the subs low pass filter and you will often have a frequency range on the knob to set.

This is why people who use bass management in their AVRs will turn the knob all the way to the max to take the subs own low pass filter out of the equation since they are using the AVRs bass management.

Typically they are the same with that subtle difference but for most applications and the way they are used they end up being essentially the same. I find it much more of a rarity for a sub to have an LFE input. Most subs will have line level inputs and speaker level inputs.

As for subs it really can be a wide array depending on room dimensions and other factors however since you are looking at just a sub for the tv an excellent entry level sub that could also be used if you ever moved onto some external speakers would be Elemental Designs A2-300.

In its price range it is largely unmatched.

Thanks $350 is a little pricey, but It's only about $100 more than what I was looking at. Plus I have a Pioneer now, lol now I only want the best for it
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post #12 of 26 Old 02-02-2010, 10:08 AM
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Well you were an elite owner so I figured you would be ok with the price. Realistically that is dirt cheap as you are going to spend much more on a large capable sub like an SVS PB13-Ultra, a Seaton Submersive, or an eD A7-900 or something of that nature.

I also promise you that any of the ID subs from SVS, HSU, Epik, eD, and others will absolutely destroy anything you can get at Best Buy or a similarly commercial place. You could take a number of those Polks you were looking at, add them together and that eD sub would walk all over it.
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post #13 of 26 Old 02-02-2010, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post

I have read everywhere and came up with some answers but I still have one question. Ok so I just got the 111fd and I noticed it has the subwoofer out. For now I want to just use the stock speakers and add some bass til I throw down a considerable amount of money on a Surround sound setup. Because I may be moving so I want to move before I pick what setup I will get. Anyways from what I know it uses a LFE connection, so I started looking online. I haven't been able to find on BB's website anything that says what inputs subwoofers use. Do all newer sub woofers have this LFE input? Thanks.

This link should help explain it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147
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post #14 of 26 Old 02-02-2010, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post

Thanks $350 is a little pricey, but It's only about $100 more than what I was looking at. Plus I have a Pioneer now, lol now I only want the best for it

You can sometimes find a subwoofer on a big discount as a return or close-out at big box stores like Best Buy.

I bought a very nice Mirage for a fraction of it's normal price that way and use it on my Kuro.

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post #15 of 26 Old 02-02-2010, 04:06 PM
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uni-panther is wrong. Most subwoofers I've seen have LFE inputs now, even in the $200 range. If it shows it has a LFE input, it has an LFE input. Many subwoofers have them (at least any of them I would consider buying in the price range.

Some subs without a dedicated LFE input will let you use the standard input by just feeding 1x rca to it instead of 2x (ie just one channel) and then turning the crossover on the subwoofer all the way up to max to bypass the internal circuit. You need to check around for the specific subwoofer if it doesn't have LFE whether it has this functionality. It is not simply a matter of turning the crossover high enough that you're pushing control of the full range to the receiver, which sounds terrible. Some subwoofers without LFE inputs are designed such that when you have 1xrca and the crossover maxed it will actually bypass its own internal circuit and act as an LFE (for this reason it has to be maxed on the crossover as anything less than turning it all the way to the right will keep it on the internal crossover rather than LFE). This is mostly for subwoofers within the past couple years and you need to check either online or with technical support from whichever company you're looking at. It's mostly cheaper subwoofers that are this way (or possibly older ones) so generally I'd say to stay with a sub that has a dedicated LFE, but if you're just looking for a subwoofer with reasonable sound and not very good sound, those kind of subs will sound fine "LFE"-ed.

I'll post back when I have a chance with a bunch of good choices for subs in the $180-350 range that have LFE inputs. The rest aren't necessarily bad, but I don't really have the time to check on which models can be "LFE"-ed or not. I know some can, some can't. If they can't, they aren't worth your time. If they can, they represent be a good budget value if you aren't looking for something fancy.
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post #16 of 26 Old 02-03-2010, 06:32 AM
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uni-panther is wrong. Most subwoofers I've seen have LFE inputs now, even in the $200 range. If it shows it has a LFE input, it has an LFE input. Many subwoofers have them (at least any of them I would consider buying in the price range.

Some subs without a dedicated LFE input will let you use the standard input by just feeding 1x rca to it instead of 2x (ie just one channel) and then turning the crossover on the subwoofer all the way up to max to bypass the internal circuit. You need to check around for the specific subwoofer if it doesn't have LFE whether it has this functionality. It is not simply a matter of turning the crossover high enough that you're pushing control of the full range to the receiver, which sounds terrible. Some subwoofers without LFE inputs are designed such that when you have 1xrca and the crossover maxed it will actually bypass its own internal circuit and act as an LFE (for this reason it has to be maxed on the crossover as anything less than turning it all the way to the right will keep it on the internal crossover rather than LFE). This is mostly for subwoofers within the past couple years and you need to check either online or with technical support from whichever company you're looking at. It's mostly cheaper subwoofers that are this way (or possibly older ones) so generally I'd say to stay with a sub that has a dedicated LFE, but if you're just looking for a subwoofer with reasonable sound and not very good sound, those kind of subs will sound fine "LFE"-ed.

I'll post back when I have a chance with a bunch of good choices for subs in the $180-350 range that have LFE inputs. The rest aren't necessarily bad, but I don't really have the time to check on which models can be "LFE"-ed or not. I know some can, some can't. If they can't, they aren't worth your time. If they can, they represent be a good budget value if you aren't looking for something fancy.

How am I wrong? I didn't say there are no LFE inputs. I said "most subs" have line level ins and speaker level ins but usually drop the LFE labled input. From all of the models I look at on Hsu,SVS,Epik, eD, Paradigm, JL-Audio, and others I hardly ever recall seeing a strictly labeled LFE input. Maybe on ultra cheap $100 subwoofers but across the board it certainly isn't the norm.

Also when you say if a sub doesn't have an LFE input and you turn up the X-over knob to the max you need to check to see if it has that function. What do you mean? I'm sorry but if you have a X-Over knob there is no checking to do. You are turning it up so you can use the bass management on your AVR. LFE inputs are already bypassing low pass filters while line level ins are controllable. You are simply switching to your AVRs bass management.

How can you possibly say that giving control to your AVRs bass management "sounds terrible" Almost every single person with a full sound system uses their AVRs bass management. They will use the X-over on the AVR and by no means does this "sound terrible" I don't get what you are saying there at all.

You make this sound like LFE and line level ins are two completely different listening sources but they are not. LFE automatically bypasses the low pass filter while line level ins don't.
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post #17 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so I got a 300 watt 8" Polk Audio from best buy for $150 with the LFE cable because it was open box and they lost the power cable. It's normally $300, so not too shabby of a deal. They found the power cable right as I was paying so it was nice. Anyways question, I have 2 definitive and the sub hooked to my 111FD, how much power is the TV able to push? I want to get a receiver but money is a little tight. Would it make a HUGE difference with a receiver?
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post #18 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
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Ok so I got a 300 watt 8" Polk Audio from best buy for $150 with the LFE cable because it was open box and they lost the power cable. It's normally $300, so not too shabby of a deal. They found the power cable right as I was paying so it was nice. Anyways question, I have 2 definitive and the sub hooked to my 111FD, how much power is the TV able to push? I want to get a receiver but money is a little tight. Would it make a HUGE difference with a receiver?

I have the Sony 3000 subwoofer attached directly to my Pioneer 5020, and the tv puts out enough power to drive it with no problem. The volume goes up to 50 on the tv, but with a pair of external speakers along with a subwoofer attached, a volume setting of 20 on the tv is about as loud as i can handle it.

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post #19 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Ya 20 is frickin crazy loud on my 111fd. Like wow I was playing some videogames and I thought it WAS a war going on haha. I don't need it any louder, just wondering if it would sound any better. But thanks for the reply.
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If you're looking for a worthy sub for a low price, this looks to be a good one: http://www.shopblt.com/cgi-bin/shop/...er_id=!ORDERID!

Sorry I didn't post back earlier. Somehow got lost in the course of life.

Regarding uni-panthers claims, there's a difference between turning the crossover all the way to the top and feeding an LFE signal to it. LFE bypasses the subwoofers internal crossover so it doesn't matter where you have it turned. Some subwoofers that don't have "line-level" or LFE inputs can be made to work that way by running a single rca instead of dual rca and turning them to the max. The key there is that for it to work they need to be wired for it. What I am saying is that some subs are designed to switch from the internal crossover to the receiver's. It's mostly cheaper/older subs and it's not something typically advertised so you have to check with the manufacturer if it doesn't tell you in the manual or online.

For practical purposes there's not much difference between line level in and LFE in. There's a big difference between either of those and analogue stereo in, which sounds like crap.

For subs like the OP bought or that I linked to this shouldn't be something applicable, but for people on an extreme budget it's a definite consideration and considering the price of getting a Pioneer plasma in the first place, budget shopping for sub and/or speakers is totally understandable. BTW, the best time to shop for new gear is at the end of season/start of new season when old gear gets cleared out. I got a $800 sub for $200 this fall.
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post #21 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
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Ya 20 is frickin crazy loud on my 111fd. Like wow I was playing some videogames and I thought it WAS a war going on haha. I don't need it any louder, just wondering if it would sound any better. But thanks for the reply.

On the tv did you go into setup, then Sound, and then into Sound Effect? You can make the sound really good by making adjustments in that menu.

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post #22 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 01:59 PM
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Ya 20 is frickin crazy loud on my 111fd. Like wow I was playing some videogames and I thought it WAS a war going on haha. I don't need it any louder, just wondering if it would sound any better. But thanks for the reply.

cost/benefit. Receiver may have other processing that'll improve your sound, although I don't know how much benefit you'll get out of using it just with a sub. If you upgrade your speaker system, that's the time to get a receiver. Speakers hold value a lot better than receivers. New codecs come out, new processing techniques, more speakers get added on etc... etc...

It's pretty much guaranteed that any receiver you get now will be outdated by the time you go for surround sound. If you get a good sub or good speakers on the other hand they'll generally last for much longer unless you decide to upgrade to something higher quality.
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post #23 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I did go into "sound effect menu" I think I turned everything to high because it seemed to sound the best to me. As far as speakers go I have these hooked up:

http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...roductid=BP10B

which believe it or not I got them for FREE! They sound amazing and they're very loud. I have some 12" speakers at my parents house, forgot the brand but they were also given to me for free. I may get a Pioneer receiver and use the definitive and the other two and just have 5.1 for now. Either way crank just these 2 up with the bass and Transformers sounds like it's happening in my living room. Very awesome and immersive indeed.
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post #24 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 03:52 PM
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Very nice. I didn't realize you had speakers outside of the tv speakers. If you have 5.1, then a receiver is clearly a good investment. Just keep an eye on prices. Sometimes there's only a small difference in cost between a 5.1 receiver and a better 7.1/7.2 one that would give you room for later upgrades.
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post #25 of 26 Old 03-07-2010, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post

Yes I did go into "sound effect menu" I think I turned everything to high because it seemed to sound the best to me. As far as speakers go I have these hooked up:

http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...roductid=BP10B

which believe it or not I got them for FREE! They sound amazing and they're very loud. I have some 12" speakers at my parents house, forgot the brand but they were also given to me for free. I may get a Pioneer receiver and use the definitive and the other two and just have 5.1 for now. Either way crank just these 2 up with the bass and Transformers sounds like it's happening in my living room. Very awesome and immersive indeed.

Nice speakers. I'm quite impressed by the quality of the internal amp on the Pioneer, and a good set of speakers and subwoofer really shows the quality. I'm using a 20+ year old pair of Epicure 2 speakers and the sound is impressive.

RIP Robin Williams. Thanks for the laughter.
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post #26 of 26 Old 03-08-2010, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Very nice. I didn't realize you had speakers outside of the tv speakers. If you have 5.1, then a receiver is clearly a good investment. Just keep an eye on prices. Sometimes there's only a small difference in cost between a 5.1 receiver and a better 7.1/7.2 one that would give you room for later upgrades.

Cool thanks!! I think I'm going to have to, it feels so nice to have such a great setup. But yeah the Pioneer TV is impressive for pushing those speakers . I still can't believe how good it sounds personally.
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