Samsung PNXXc450 Owners Thread *NO PRICE TALK* - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I just got my 50c450 a few hours ago and I am starting this thread as promised, I'll be updating this first post with any relevant info as it comes up.

First impressions.

The set buzzes, no question about it, I can hear a loud buzz. I'll see what Samsung says about it before I call Amazon for a replacement unit.

Picture Quality is very good, easily on par with my old 54V10 in many areas. The AR filter is noticeably better than what Panasonic uses resulting in deep blacks even in brighter lighting, but it was overcast out so that may change on a sunny day. Line bleeding is present, but I'm not sure how it compares to other plasma brands just yet, I still have a lot of extra testing to do. The good news is that there is almost zero dither noise on this set, resulting in one of the cleanest plasma images that I have seen. Green Phosphor trails is also very hard to spot, about on par with the 2009 Panasonics which were very good and it should get even harder to spot as the set ages.

Overall I am very impressed with this set, especially for the money I paid. (even at MSRP these sets are a steal) If I can get the buzzing fixed then I could easily see this becoming the best bargain set of 2010.

I still need to see how this set looks in a completely dark room, so I can't wait for tonight to see how deep the blacks are.

There are black spacers between each horizontal row of pixels

Quote:
Originally Posted by greggums View Post

Here is the photo of the black lines between the gas tubes of the display:



I would sit at least 6' back from the 42" so you cant see the lines.

Here is the video that references the black lines between the rows.
(skip to 3:35 in the video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BHns1WW43w

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post18249538

Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Alright, I figured out what the "scan lines" are, there is a solid black line of nothing between each horizontal row of pixels, each one of these lines is roughly half as thick as the pixel rows. (and the pixels are rectangular like on the 42inch models) After I figured this out I remembered a CES interview where a Samsung Rep said they were doing this on all their sets to improve the blacks in room lighting, they said that any blank spot between pixels would be "painted" black, what they didn't say was that they were going to add blank spots to achieve this.
(my 42px75 Panasonic plasma has no spacers between the pixels, and I would bet money that none of the previous years of Samsung plasma sets had them either)

Normally I can sit 8.5 feet from a 50inch 720p plasma set to get all signs of screen door effect to vanish, but thanks to these black lines, I have to move to 14.5 feet to get them to vanish. I would guess that roughly 1/3 of the screen is made up of these lines, maybe more.

At least this actually does make the blacks look good in room lighting.


I have no idea what I am going to do at this point as my replacment from Amazon has already been sent out, and there is no way that I will be able to put up with these lines.




Here are my latest settings as of December 03, 2010

Movie Mode. (Standard is too dim and Dynamic is useless)

Cell Light = 10
Contrast = 75
Brightness = 55
Sharpness = 0
Color = 44
Tint G44/R56

Advanced
Black Tone = Off (didn't notice a diff with it on so I left it off)
Dynamic Contrast = Off
Gamma 0
Fleshtone +1
Edge Enhancement = Off

Color Temp = Warm 1 (Warm 2 has always been too green to my eyes)
DNF = Off
Screen Burn Protection = 4/4/1 for gaming and TV 2/2/2 for movies

White:
20
25
15
25
05
25


I'll be happy to answer any questions about the set that I can, so ask away.

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post #2 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I just got my 50c450 a few hours ago and I am starting this thread as promised, I'll be updating this first post with any relevant info as it comes up.

First impressions.

The set buzzes, no question about it, I can hear a loud buzz. I'll see what Samsung says about it before I call Amazon for a replacement unit.

Picture Quality is very good, easily on par with my old 54V10 in many areas. The AR filter is noticeably better than what Panasonic uses resulting in deep blacks even in brighter lighting, but it was overcast out so that may change on a sunny day. Line bleeding is present, but I'm not sure how it compares to other plasma brands just yet, I still have a lot of extra testing to do. The good news is that there is almost zero dither noise on this set, resulting in one of the cleanest plasma images that I have seen. Green Phosphor trails is also very hard to spot, about on par with the 2009 Panasonics which were very good and it should get even harder to spot as the set ages.

Overall I am very impressed with this set, especially for the money I paid. (even at MSRP these sets are a steal) If I can get the buzzing fixed then I could easily see this becoming the best bargain set of 2010.

I still need to see how this set looks in a completely dark room, so I can't wait for tonight to see how deep the blacks are.


These are the rough settings that I came up with to get a good looking image without any noticeable ABL activation. I'll continue to tweak them over the next few days.

Mode = Movie
Cell Light = 8 (any higher = ABL activation)
Contrast = 75
Brightness = 45
Sharpness = 0

Color Temp = Warm 1

Everything else is either at their defaults and all extra processing is off. Pixel Orbiter is set to 4/4/1


I'll be happy to answer any questions about the set that I can, so ask away.

Isn't this set a 720p model? Just wondering why you went from a 54" 1080p V10 to a 50" 720p plasma.
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post #3 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 09:53 AM
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Few questions as I'm waiting for my 42" c450 to arrive...

First, what is line bleeding, and is/was it present in last years models?

What is "ABL" activation?

How loud is the buzzing? Can you hear it 7-10 feet away with the tv muted? Does it go unnoticed once the volume is at a fair amount?

Great to hear your opinions on PQ, and I'm excited to see it in person when you mention that it looks great even compared to a V10. The only issue with the set I had in question was black level depth. Many mentioned it as an issue with the 2009 b450s. Black levels generally don't bother me, on even entry level 1080p LCDs (new models), so I don't think it will on this plasma, but its great to hear that they look improved (as this is what some ppl usually criticize Samsung plasmas for). Glad you like the set...any photos coming?
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post #4 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 09:57 AM
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WTF? how many "C" model buzzers is that now? 3 out of 3?

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post #5 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickdj View Post

Isn't this set a 720p model? Just wondering why you went from a 54" 1080p V10 to a 50" 720p plasma.

Yes it is 720p. That's why it is such a good price.
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post #6 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nascar Dog View Post

Yes it is 720p. That's why it is such a good price.

I realize it calls for a lower price being a 720p set, but my question was more about why he would have "downgraded" from a 54" V10 to a 50" 720p set.
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post #7 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesco411 View Post

Few questions as I'm waiting for my 42" c450 to arrive...

First, what is line bleeding, and is/was it present in last years models?

What is "ABL" activation?

How loud is the buzzing? Can you hear it 7-10 feet away with the tv muted? Does it go unnoticed once the volume is at a fair amount?

Great to hear your opinions on PQ, and I'm excited to see it in person when you mention that it looks great even compared to a V10. The only issue with the set I had in question was black level depth. Many mentioned it as an issue with the 2009 b450s. Black levels generally don't bother me, on even entry level 1080p LCDs (new models), so I don't think it will on this plasma, but its great to hear that they look improved (as this is what some ppl usually criticize Samsung plasmas for). Glad you like the set...any photos coming?


Line Bleeding = a solid line will dim the rest of the pixels in that row making it look like there is a line through the whole image. (Watch the credits to the movie "Cars" it shows it very well. (all plasma sets do this to some degree)

ABL = Auto Brightness Limiter, this is to keep the set from using more than a set amount of power, it is what dims the whites of plasma sets.

I can hear the buzzing from 10 feet away over normal content in quiet scenes, normal scenes drown it out, but it is definitely louder than my old 54V10.

As for the blacks, I'll have to check them tonight before I make a final ruling, but that AR filter does a good job with the blacks so far, much better than what the Panasonic's used last year. (still has reflection issues though)

And finally, I went with a cheap 720p model for that reason, it was cheap. I was tired of getting all these expensive HDTVs that had obvious flaws that detracted from the content (Kuro = Buzz and DSE) (Sammy LCDs = Dark Banding) (Panny Plasma = Rising blacks) so I figured, just get a cheap set and wait it out for a while, see how the 2010 models pan out and if they stink, wait for the 2011 models.

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post #8 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I just got my 50c450 a few hours ago and I am starting this thread as promised, I'll be updating this first post with any relevant info as it comes up.

First impressions.

The set buzzes, no question about it, I can hear a loud buzz. I'll see what Samsung says about it before I call Amazon for a replacement unit.

Picture Quality is very good, easily on par with my old 54V10 in many areas. The AR filter is noticeably better than what Panasonic uses resulting in deep blacks even in brighter lighting, but it was overcast out so that may change on a sunny day. Line bleeding is present, but I'm not sure how it compares to other plasma brands just yet, I still have a lot of extra testing to do. The good news is that there is almost zero dither noise on this set, resulting in one of the cleanest plasma images that I have seen. Green Phosphor trails is also very hard to spot, about on par with the 2009 Panasonics which were very good and it should get even harder to spot as the set ages.

Overall I am very impressed with this set, especially for the money I paid. (even at MSRP these sets are a steal) If I can get the buzzing fixed then I could easily see this becoming the best bargain set of 2010.

I still need to see how this set looks in a completely dark room, so I can't wait for tonight to see how deep the blacks are.


These are the rough settings that I came up with to get a good looking image without any noticeable ABL activation. I'll continue to tweak them over the next few days.

Mode = Movie
Cell Light = 8 (any higher = ABL activation)
Contrast = 75
Brightness = 45
Sharpness = 0

Color Temp = Warm 1

Everything else is either at their defaults and all extra processing is off. Pixel Orbiter is set to 4/4/1


I'll be happy to answer any questions about the set that I can, so ask away.

Fiddle with lowering the brightness and contrast levels, to see if that reduces the buzzing level. Samsung says that it does. You may have the brightness at a high level, since you say that it looks good during the daytime.

Be sure to check with Amazon before letting Samsung work on the set. A lot of places will not allow a return or replacement, once a set has being worked on. You do not want to get caught in that trap, should Samsung not solve the problem
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post #9 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Fiddle with lowering the brightness and contrast levels, to see if that reduces the buzzing level. Samsung says that it does. You may have the brightness at a high level, since you say that it looks good during the daytime.

Be sure to check with Amazon before letting Samsung work on the set. A lot of places will not allow a return or replacement, once a set has being worked on. You do not want to get caught in that trap, should Samsung not solve the problem

His contrast/brightness issues arent very high at all. In fact, I would increase contrast after 100-200 hours.

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post #10 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Fiddle with lowering the brightness and contrast levels, to see if that reduces the buzzing level. Samsung says that it does. You may have the brightness at a high level, since you say that it looks good during the daytime.

Be sure to check with Amazon before letting Samsung work on the set. A lot of places will not allow a return or replacement, once a set has being worked on. You do not want to get caught in that trap, should Samsung not solve the problem

It buzzed just as loudly using Standard mode with Cell light at 5 (super dim), so I set it to what looked OK without any ABL activation. And Amazon now asks you to have the TV checked by the maker before returning it for a defect. (they will allow a return outside of their 30 days if the TV maker approves it)

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post #11 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadmaker View Post

His contrast/brightness issues arent very high at all. In fact, I would increase contrast after 100-200 hours.

It has been found that the reason that Samsung's IR levels are so high is due to the contrast being set too high, anything over 80 seems to cause the IR levels to get worse. (Cell Light settings hasn't been tested yet) I am going to test that theory myself, but I firmly believe it to be true based on the Panasonic models that I have had.

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post #12 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

It buzzed just as loudly using Standard mode with Cell light at 5 (super dim), so I set it to what looked OK without any ABL activation. And Amazon now asks you to have the TV checked by the maker before returning it for a defect. (they will allow a return outside of their 30 days if the TV maker approves it)

Well, it does not sound very promising on the buzzing front. Samsung did not have a good record of solving the problem on their more expensive units last year, so I doubt if they will make a large investment in providing a fix for their entry level model.

Run the hell out of it, to get it broken in, and see if the buzz decreases, and if not then you might want to try a 2010 LG 50PK450 model next. They are in the same price range, and I have not heard of any complaints about loud buzzing in their 2009 models. I will watch for your updates, and how it looks at night. Does it have a user CMS feature? The LG unit has an excellent one, and also a 24P 3:3 pulldown feature.
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post #13 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Well, it does not sound very promising on the buzzing front. Samsung did not have a good record of solving the problem on their more expensive units last year, so I doubt if they will make a large investment in providing a fix for their entry level model.

Run the hell out of it, to get it broken in, and see if the buzz decreases, and if not then you might want to try a 2010 LG 50PK450 model next. They are in the same price range, and I have not heard of any complaints about loud buzzing in their 2009 models. I will watch for your updates, and how it looks at night. Does it have a user CMS feature? The LG unit has an excellent one, and also a 24P 3:3 pulldown feature.

It has gamma controls and full white balance controls as well, but only in movie mode, Standard and Dynamic are locked out on a bunch of stuff.

And I intend to treat this thing like I stole it, simply because it is a buzzer and I will probably have to get a new unit anyway.

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post #14 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 11:37 AM
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I'm anxious to see your take on the black level tonight.

If it wasn't for the buzz issue, their reliability, and the blacks, I'd get a Samsung asap.

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post #15 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I should note that the set came off the Ceva truck lying down, so that could be the cause for some of the buzz. It seems that nobody knows how to ship an HDTV these days.

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post #16 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I should note that the set came off the Ceva truck lying down, so that could be the cause for some of the buzz. It seems that nobody knows how to ship an HDTV these days.

Incredible how stupid the delivery people are, after all the years large flat panels are on the market, and they still have not get the message. You should let Amazon know about the panel being delivered in that manner.

Since other people are reporting that they are experiencing loud buzzing with 42c450 units(One guy returned one, because he could not stand the loud buzzing) it probably is not being caused by the panel having been lying flat on the truck.

Run up a quick hundred hours on the thing, and see if the noise abates some what.
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post #17 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Incredible how stupid the delivery people are, after all the years large flat panels are on the market, and they still have not get the message. You should let Amazon know about the panel being delivered in that manner.

Since other people are reporting that they are experiencing loud buzzing with 42c450 units(One guy returned one, because he could not stand the loud buzzing) it probably is not being caused by the panel having been lying flat on the truck.

Run up a quick hundred hours on the thing, and see if the noise abates some what.

I've spoken with many delivery company employees for various chains and they all get them lying down, since it is easier to lay them down and stack more crap into the truck. (yes, Best Buy gets their TVs lying down and stacked to the roof of the truck) so it is very possible that shipping damages could be causing a lot of the common TV defects. (like LCD clouding for example) I'm sure that Amazon is no better, remember, we don't see how the TVs arrive at the warehouses of the big chain stores so they could all easily get away with this.

I'll be calling Amazon tomorrow to inform them of the buzz and how it was shipped. (I would have refused the delivery but last time I did that it resulted in my waiting for a month to get my refund, I'm not doing that again)


I would also like to note that the max power draw listed on the back of the set is 280watts, which is quite low for a plasma. (My 54V10 was over 600watts max for example)

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post #18 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I've spoken with many delivery company employees for various chains and they all get them lying down, since it is easier to lay them down and stack more crap into the truck. (yes, Best Buy gets their TVs lying down and stacked to the roof of the truck) so it is very possible that shipping damages could be causing a lot of the common TV defects. (like LCD clouding for example) I'm sure that Amazon is no better, remember, we don't see how the TVs arrive at the warehouses of the big chain stores so they could all easily get away with this.

I'll be calling Amazon tomorrow to inform them of the buzz and how it was shipped. (I would have refused the delivery but last time I did that it resulted in my waiting for a month to get my refund, I'm not doing that again)


I would also like to note that the max power draw listed on the back of the set is 280watts, which is quite low for a plasma. (My 54V10 was over 600watts max for example)

Well, I would suppose that a 720P unit, since it has around half the pixels of a 1080P unit, would draw about half the max watts, for a same size unit as a 1080P one, and the larger 54V10 would account for the additional max number of watts.


If I recall you said that you live around fifty miles from the nearest big box stores, what part of the country do you live in. It sounds like you must live in a remote rural area.
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post #19 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I've spoken with many delivery company employees for various chains and they all get them lying down, since it is easier to lay them down and stack more crap into the truck. (yes, Best Buy gets their TVs lying down and stacked to the roof of the truck) so it is very possible that shipping damages could be causing a lot of the common TV defects. (like LCD clouding for example) I'm sure that Amazon is no better, remember, we don't see how the TVs arrive at the warehouses of the big chain stores so they could all easily get away with this.

I'll be calling Amazon tomorrow to inform them of the buzz and how it was shipped. (I would have refused the delivery but last time I did that it resulted in my waiting for a month to get my refund, I'm not doing that again)


I would also like to note that the max power draw listed on the back of the set is 280watts, which is quite low for a plasma. (My 54V10 was over 600watts max for example)

Are you really going to return ANOTHER TV? I don't think you'll ever be happy with any tv.
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post #20 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 01:21 PM
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This is very unfortunate news with the buzzing....As another poster mentioned, someone on here already had a c450 and returned it....Keep us posted as to what you do/Samsung does about the buzzing...
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post #21 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Are you really going to return ANOTHER TV? I don't think you'll ever be happy with any tv.

All I'm looking for is a TV with no visible or audible defects that distract from the content on the screen, there is no reason as to why that set shouldn't exist. (and it did exist in the form of the 09 Panasonic sets, until the blacks rose that is, the buzz is my only complaint with this Samsung so far) No consumer should settle for defects, because the manufacturers will never fix them if people settle. (just look at LCD clouding)

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post #22 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

All I'm looking for is a TV with no visible or audible defects that distract from the content on the screen, there is no reason as to why that set shouldn't exist. (and it did exist in the form of the 09 Panasonic sets, until the blacks rose that is, the buzz is my only complaint with this Samsung so far) No consumer should settle for defects, because the manufacturers will never fix them if people settle. (just look at LCD clouding)

I just checked the Samsung 2010 thread...and there's a poster there with a 50" c450 who claims he doesnt hear any buzzing from his set...I believe his name is "pooba"....maybe there is some hope left... ;p
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post #23 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesco411 View Post

I just checked the Samsung 2010 thread...and there's a poster there with a 50" c450 who claims he doesnt hear any buzzing from his set...I believe his name is "pooba"....maybe there is some hope left... ;p

still no noticeable buzzing on mine and i'm probably around the 70 hour mark. fingers crossed this means it won't pop up in the near future. i'm super happy with this set so far. for the price the picture can't be beat. i've been watching in standard mode with the contrast and brightness turned down for the break in period and am running the anti burn in scrolling feature for about an hour a night when i go to bed and have noticed minimal IR so far. i'm also watching it in a fairly bright room and the glare is much, much less than what i was expecting. hardly even noticeable to compared to the cheap vizio plasma i had before.

by the way, i picked it up at fry's electronics in tempe, az and they were very careful not to lay it flat when helping me get it into my truck. of course, that doesn't mean it didn't come into the store laying flat on a pallet...
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post #24 of 1732 Old 03-02-2010, 11:22 PM
 
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Well, I would suppose that a 720P unit, since it has around half the pixels of a 1080P unit, would draw about half the max watts, for a same size unit as a 1080P one, and the larger 54V10 would account for the additional max number of watts.

Sounds good in theory, (i.e half the pixels equals half the power), but it's not quite that simple in practice. The pixels are significantly larger on a 768p. You still have to light up the same amount of surface area as a 50 inch 1080p set. If it used half the number of pixels and half the power, we could use that type of reasoning to extrapolate that the picture would be half as dark. However we know this is not the case--the 768p sets do not look twice as dim as their 1080p brethren. Anyway, each year that goes by, as power consumption is lowered, the gap between the 768p and 1080p sets shrinks.

Last year Crutchfield rated the PN50B450 (768p) at 225 watts, and the PN50B550 (1080p) at 254, or only 12.8% more. I seem to recall however that the gap was greater with my A450 (768p) vs. the A550 (1080p). I think it was closer to 20% or even a bit more.
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post #25 of 1732 Old 03-03-2010, 02:03 AM
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How are the black levels in a dimmed room ? Can anyone measure the MLL?
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post #26 of 1732 Old 03-03-2010, 04:18 AM
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is the screen reflection / glare from lighting improved on this model?
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post #27 of 1732 Old 03-03-2010, 05:51 AM
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it's much better than i anticipated. i don't think there's any way to get around some glare with a plasma but it's hardly noticeable and the room i have it in gets pretty bright during the day at times.
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post #28 of 1732 Old 03-03-2010, 05:53 AM
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anyone will to post some pics of the new c450s....do these have the single-pane of glass look to them?? I remember reading they reduced a pane of glass between the filter to improve blacks and contrast, but not sure if that was it or not...
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post #29 of 1732 Old 03-03-2010, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesco411 View Post

anyone will to post some pics of the new c450s....do these have the single-pane of glass look to them?? I remember reading they reduced a pane of glass between the filter to improve blacks and contrast, but not sure if that was it or not...

It has a single pane of glass, no internal reflections at all. It also weighs under 60 pounds thanks to this.


And here are a few more updates.

IR levels are typical Samsung, they don't seem to be improved at all since I had a 4254 back in 2007, which is really sad to say the least. (left a menu paused for 25 minutes thanks to a HDMI link error messing up my repeat setting, so I figured that was a good IR test (it was a real world accident after all), it was still perfectly visible 30 minutes later when I shut the set off after running a fullscreen movie)

At my viewing distance I can't see the pixels at all, and yet randomly I will see what looks like pixel rows or scan lines, even at 15+ feet, something is up with this and it isn't the 720p screen.

The blacks in a completely dark room are better than a risen Panasonic, but not as good as one out of the box. I'll check out a bias light tonight along with the Dark Knight to see how well that works.

The AR filter works great with mild sunlight, but falls apart with a D65k rated energy saver bulb (60w equivalent), I still have to test it with strong sunlight.

The buzzing really got under my skin last night, it is really annoying and is audible with normal content running.

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post #30 of 1732 Old 03-03-2010, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

It has a single pane of glass, no internal reflections at all. It also weighs under 60 pounds thanks to this.


And here are a few more updates.

IR levels are typical Samsung, they don't seem to be improved at all since I had a 4254 back in 2007, which is really sad to say the least. (left a menu paused for 25 minutes thanks to a HDMI link error messing up my repeat setting, so I figured that was a good IR test (it was a real world accident after all), it was still perfectly visible 30 minutes later when I shut the set off after running a fullscreen movie)

At my viewing distance I can't see the pixels at all, and yet randomly I will see what looks like pixel rows or scan lines, even at 15+ feet, something is up with this and it isn't the 720p screen.

The blacks in a completely dark room are better than a risen Panasonic, but not as good as one out of the box. I'll check out a bias light tonight along with the Dark Knight to see how well that works.

The AR filter works great with mild sunlight, but falls apart with a D65k rated energy saver bulb (60w equivalent), I still have to test it with strong sunlight.

The buzzing really got under my skin last night, it is really annoying and is audible with normal content running.


sounds like you got a dud. sorry man.
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