Official Panasonic TC-PxxVT20/25 Owners Thread NO PRICE TALK!! - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 10650 Old 04-03-2010, 02:00 PM
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Just wanted to know if this tv supports hdmi 1.4, coz one of the spec sheets i found for this tv was listed as having 4x hdmi 1.3 inputs...

I thought all tv's will need to have hdmi 1.4 to get 3D in 1080p or am I wrong?
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post #362 of 10650 Old 04-03-2010, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceless Rebel View Post

If the Sony HX900 series can deliver "near-XBR8" PQ, I'm going to go that route instead of buying "defective by design" Panasonic plasmas.

Meanwhile, Consumer Reports has had test samples of Samsung 7000 series and 8000 series 3D TVs and the Panny 50 inch VT20 and they simply raved about both the 3D and general picture quality of the VT20, saying it has the best blacks since they tested the Kuro.

While it has been 3 weeks since they posted this information, it has not changed.

Infinite black looks like a winner.

The Samsungs didn't measure up to the performance of the VT20.

The final test results should be available in the next 60 days.

No TV is perfect, but the 65VT25 is going to be most interesting.
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post #363 of 10650 Old 04-03-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1289 View Post

Just wanted to know if this tv supports hdmi 1.4, coz one of the spec sheets i found for this tv was listed as having 4x hdmi 1.3 inputs...

I thought all tv's will need to have hdmi 1.4 to get 3D in 1080p or am I wrong?

If i recall correctly only one of the hdmi ports is 1.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Meanwhile, Consumer Reports has had test samples of Samsung 7000 series and 8000 series 3D TVs and the Panny 50 inch VT20 and they simply raved about both the 3D and general picture quality of the VT20, saying it has the best blacks since they tested the Kuro.

While it has been 3 weeks since they posted this information, it has not changed.

Infinite black looks like a winner.

The Samsungs didn't measure up to the performance of the VT20.

The final test results should be available in the next 60 days.

No TV is perfect, but the 65VT25 is going to be most interesting.

Consumer Reports tested the Samsung LEDs, no? Apples and oranges..
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post #364 of 10650 Old 04-03-2010, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sam1289 View Post

With plasma's dont they will all suffer from raising black levels after a specific time of use?

The answer is no, but it's important to understand why. What all plasmas DO suffer from is declining brightness over time. As the phosphors are excited billions and billions of times, their ability to emit light when excited goes down. - - pretty sharply after a few hundred hours, and then more gradually for the life of the set.

Since one of the big marketing problems with plasma, relative to LCDs, is lower brightness to start with (More among mass market consumers than among the folks here, who are more likely to run their panels at lower brightness anyway) Panasonic set out to try to fix this.

Their solution was to have their sets automatically increase their drive voltages over time, so that brightness is maintained as the efficiency of the phosphors declines. The unfortunate side effect is that the increasing voltage also raises the set's black level. Again, for the mass market consumer, who watches TV with a lot of room light on, this is a non-issue, but for tweaks watching in a dark HT, it's a big deal.

This was compounded by the fact that Panny was pretty heavy-handed in how they applied this voltage correction on the '09 sets, so that black-level fans perceived a sudden jump after a few hundred hours.

Panny claims that they have fine-tuned the voltage correction on the '10 sets so that that change will happen much more gradually. It doesn't appear that people with '10 sets have run them enough yet to know how it is going to play out.
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post #365 of 10650 Old 04-03-2010, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1289 View Post

Sony tv's are always over priced and not worth it imo.

It looks to be much betterhttp://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...=46696580&ad_q

sorry, for the off topic, but this is what the best of lcd can do now. 2011 will be interesting.

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post #366 of 10650 Old 04-03-2010, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

No TV is perfect, but the 65VT25 is going to be most interesting.

I agree About as close as one can get.

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post #367 of 10650 Old 04-03-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbis View Post

If i recall correctly only one of the hdmi ports is 1.4



Consumer Reports tested the Samsung LEDs, no? Apples and oranges..

You can call it apples and oranges, but which one is Samsung marketing to consumers via commercials etc.....
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post #368 of 10650 Old 04-04-2010, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1289 View Post

I thought all tv's will need to have hdmi 1.4 to get 3D in 1080p or am I wrong?

This was my understanding, as well.
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post #369 of 10650 Old 04-04-2010, 07:06 PM
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Is there anyone here that actually owns a VT20/25 who can tell me whether or not they are getting floating blacks when watching in a dark room?
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post #370 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 12:02 AM
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I have not noticed any floating blacks yet. I figured a good test might be the opening few minutes of "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" (sorry, the wife is a big Potter fan) which is very dark and has someone walking around with a flashlight. No signs of floating blacks with the VT20, and if there are any gamma adjustments they are very subtle. (The sky is a little blocky with blacks and blues at the top right as the flashlight man walks towards the big house, but not jumpy) Settings are THX, sharpness 50, color normal, extended color on, everything else off except blur reduction. 24p @ 96hz

The same scene with a TH-42PWD6UY had a lot of flickering gray and black areas. (Granted, that monitor had much fewer black gradients available)
I noticed when calibrating the PWD6UY brightness and contrast on a black or near black screen that there were sweet spots in the levels that would be bookended by lighter gradients. (i.e. at a given contrast, brightness level 42 would give a truer black than 41 or 43) I wonder if that issue is in any way related.
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post #371 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgould77 View Post

I have not noticed any floating blacks yet. I figured a good test might be the opening few minutes of "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" (sorry, the wife is a big Potter fan) which is very dark and has someone walking around with a flashlight. No signs of floating blacks with the VT20, and if there are any gamma adjustments they are very subtle.

Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it! Your wife has great taste. Harry Potter rocks. And let's face it, Emma's gotten hot. But do you have the original Matrix movie? I'm noticing a ton of floating blacks on that with my G20, and it's one of my favorite movies. Check the opening chase seen where Trinity is at the bottom of the stairs. My set is going crazy dimming and brightening during that scene.
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post #372 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 12:34 AM
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I don't think HDMI 1.4 is required for 3D. Note that several DLP RPTVs from Samsung and Mitsubishi are already 3D capable.


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post #373 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

I don't think HDMI 1.4 is required for 3D. Note that several DLP RPTVs from Samsung and Mitsubishi are already 3D capable.

From Eisuke Tsuyuzaki's blog,

"The HDMI standard has been continually updated. The problem with the current standard, called HDMI 1.3, is that it does not have the bandwidth capable of transmitting two complete 1080p images at 60 frames per second. But that's what's needed in order for consumers to see Full HD 3D TV. The current standard now in use can only transmit two 1080i images at 60 frames per second."

The Panny 3D is for real, two complete 1080p images.

Here is a quote from Andy Parsons:

"AP: It's not required to use 1.4 as long as everything in the signal path is capable of handling the 3D payload. This means, for example, that HDMI 1.3a can be used if all components, including cables and HDMI switching devices (such as A/V receivers) are "High Speed HDMI." It's important to check with the manufacturer of any switching device to see if it complies with High Speed data rates. If not, then the 3D player's video output should be connected to the 3D display directly using High Speed HDMI cables, with audio connected to the A/V receiver via analog or other digital outputs"
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post #374 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

From Eisuke Tsuyuzaki's blog,

"The HDMI standard has been continually updated. The problem with the current standard, called HDMI 1.3, is that it does not have the bandwidth capable of transmitting two complete 1080p images at 60 frames per second. But that's what's needed in order for consumers to see Full HD 3D TV. The current standard now in use can only transmit two 1080i images at 60 frames per second."

The Panny 3D is for real, two complete 1080p images.

Think it may be more like HDMI 1.3 is not required or spec'ed to have the bandwidth but is capable. I could be wrong.


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post #375 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffwine03 View Post

Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it! Your wife has great taste. Harry Potter rocks. And let's face it, Emma's gotten hot. But do you have the original Matrix movie? I'm noticing a ton of floating blacks on that with my G20, and it's one of my favorite movies. Check the opening chase seen where Trinity is at the bottom of the stairs. My set is going crazy dimming and brightening during that scene.

D-Nice I think indicated he was able to eliminate the floating blacks on the G20 via calibration. I think it had to do with the brightness setting, but probably a combination of all his tweaks.

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post #376 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 06:50 AM
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Can anyone comment on PQ differences between the G25 and the VT20/25? I know the V can do 3D handles 24p correctly. But are the blacks better? Better color? How do they compare? I just want to know what I get for the price difference besides the 2 above features.
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post #377 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

"AP: It's not required to use 1.4 as long as everything in the signal path is capable of handling the 3D payload. This means, for example, that HDMI 1.3a can be used if all components, including cables and HDMI switching devices (such as A/V receivers) are "High Speed HDMI." It's important to check with the manufacturer of any switching device to see if it complies with High Speed data rates. If not, then the 3D player's video output should be connected to the 3D display directly using High Speed HDMI cables, with audio connected to the A/V receiver via analog or other digital outputs"

Of course, that means you lose DD True HD and DTS HD MA. Only other available solution is if you use a BR player like the new Panasonic that has two HDMI outputs (one for TV and other for the audio/receiver).
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post #378 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by korzry View Post

Can anyone comment on PQ differences between the G25 and the VT20/25? I know the V can do 3D handles 24p correctly. But are the blacks better? Better color? How do they compare? I just want to know what I get for the price difference besides the 2 above features.

Regarding your question:

I believe panasonic said in a review that they increased the brightness on the VT20/VT25 since they needed to for the 3D. Also the VT series has 1/3 faster decaying phospors. Plus the VT25 are supposed to have better blacks than the G series. Thats all I know. Waiting for these plasma's to come out seems like an eternity, im so pumped.
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post #379 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by korzry View Post

Can anyone comment on PQ differences between the G25 and the VT20/25? I know the V can do 3D handles 24p correctly. But are the blacks better? Better color? How do they compare? I just want to know what I get for the price difference besides the 2 above features.

The VT series is supposed to have a lower initial black level and rise x3 over the number of hours used. We are waiting to hear D-Nice's comments on the real world testing data.

Others are saying the black levels rise quickly within the first 300 hours and level off from there. I'm hoping the VT series will initialize around .002-3 and end up with a projected value of < .01.
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post #380 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 07:47 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4

Is where I got my info about 1.4 and 3D
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post #381 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 08:18 PM
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Can anyone post their honest opinion of overall PQ difference between a 2009 Samsung B860 and the 2010 Panasonics (G20, VT20)?

I think the B860 had black levels around .015-.02. I appreciate any help.
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post #382 of 10650 Old 04-05-2010, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffwine03 View Post

Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it! Your wife has great taste. Harry Potter rocks. And let's face it, Emma's gotten hot. But do you have the original Matrix movie? I'm noticing a ton of floating blacks on that with my G20, and it's one of my favorite movies. Check the opening chase seen where Trinity is at the bottom of the stairs. My set is going crazy dimming and brightening during that scene.

I don't have this on blu ray, but do have an old dvd release. Watching the black bars, there are some slightly perceptible changes in gamma after a scene changes from very dark to slightly less dark and vice versa. After Trinity drops the phone, the agents rush in and there are three incremental shifts in gamma. Later, when she is looking up from the bottom of the stairs, there is a shift that occurs when it switches to the next scene. I did not notice levels bouncing around rapidly. (I am currently running the hdmi through a receiver to component in until I get a longer hdmi, so might not be the best test) All shifts appeared to be incremental and did not detract from viewing. I have not seen this effect on any HD content I have viewed as of yet.

My old PWD6UY had a function called AGC (automatic gamma correction) which you could turn on and off. The effect seems similar although more subdued.

Successfully installed firmware 1.7 using SD card. I guess it fixed something with the sd reader, but I never used it before installing the update. Oh well, seems to work.

Watched Princess and the Frog with my daughter. The picture looked flawless. Totally happy with the picture quality for blu ray so far.

On another note, I am not pleased that Sony won't update the firmware for the BDP-S550 to play 3D.
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post #383 of 10650 Old 04-06-2010, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgould77 View Post


On another note, I am not pleased that Sony won't update the firmware for the BDP-S550 to play 3D.

Agreed, that would be nice - but who said Sony needs to be nice? The whole idea about 3D is to hasten the need for new equipment = Profits!
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post #384 of 10650 Old 04-06-2010, 05:13 PM
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can someone recommend me a wall mount for the 50" inch set, i want to make sure that i buy the right one

thanx
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post #385 of 10650 Old 04-06-2010, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sam1289 View Post

can someone recommend me a wall mount for the 50" inch set, i want to make sure that i buy the right one

thanx

I myself really have been impressed by Level Mount. Since they give your a $5000 warranty. If your tv. falls then they pay up to $5000 for a new one.

They are a bit more pricey compared to something else, but can find great deals on them if you search the internet. you get what you pay for.
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post #386 of 10650 Old 04-06-2010, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoffo View Post

Since one of the big marketing problems with plasma, relative to LCDs, is lower brightness to start with (More among mass market consumers than among the folks here, who are more likely to run their panels at lower brightness anyway) Panasonic set out to try to fix this.

Their solution was to have their sets automatically increase their drive voltages over time, so that brightness is maintained as the efficiency of the phosphors declines. The unfortunate side effect is that the increasing voltage also raises the set's black level.

Im pretty sure thats wrong. A Phosphor cell must be put into a "ready-state" by applying a voltage to it. Now it can, when its actually supposed to, do its work in time. This voltage directly controls blacklevel as well. Now it seems, that this voltage needs to be increased over time, because some components wear off and some cells would not get into this "ready-state" and thus stop firing. Whats wrong with Panasonic displays though, is that this voltage increase is just too strong, hence strongly increasing blacklevel.
I would really like to know if this blacklevel increase still applies if you were to use the dynamic mode at max contrast all the time
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post #387 of 10650 Old 04-06-2010, 07:54 PM
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Im pretty sure thats wrong. A Phosphor cell must be put into a "ready-state" by applying a voltage to it. Now it can, when its actually supposed to, do its work in time. This voltage directly controls blacklevel as well. Now it seems, that this voltage needs to be increased over time, because some components wear off and some cells would not get into this "ready-state" and thus stop firing. Whats wrong with Panasonic displays though, is that this voltage increase is just too strong, hence strongly increasing blacklevel.
I would really like to know if this blacklevel increase still applies if you were to use the dynamic mode at max contrast all the time

According to an ex-Pioneer engineer that was interviewed on a podcast (link was posted in a different thread), Panasonic was planning for the average consumer to use their displays in the dynamic mode. The Pioneer engineer predicted that running in the aforementioned mode would reduce the black-level rise. Panasonic catered more to the average consumer by thinking this way rather than focusing on astute videophiles.
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post #388 of 10650 Old 04-06-2010, 10:24 PM
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Agreed, that would be nice - but who said Sony needs to be nice? The whole idea about 3D is to hasten the need for new equipment = Profits!

I just figured that if they are going to update all PS3's to play 3D to appease the masses, they would extend the same offer to s550 owners. Maybe they will once the s*70 series is obsolete. If the harmony one remote did bluetooth, I'd have gove with a PS3. Maybe I will still get one when they release a version w/ hdmi v 1.4
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post #389 of 10650 Old 04-07-2010, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by esp2684 View Post

According to an ex-Pioneer engineer that was interviewed on a podcast (link was posted in a different thread), Panasonic was planning for the average consumer to use their displays in the dynamic mode. The Pioneer engineer predicted that running in the aforementioned mode would reduce the black-level rise. Panasonic catered more to the average consumer by thinking this way rather than focusing on astute videophiles.


I posted the same theory in another thread:

"If the voltage raise is pre-determined on time and doesn't keep track of how aged the phosphor is, then when it happens and the phosphor is not aged enough you get a black color raise.
But if you keep your TV in vivid and it ages as Panasonic were expecting then the voltage increase would be the proper one (would match) and there won't be black levels raising (or at least not raising as much)"

Maybe this is the ticket to how to use your TV the first few thousand hours to avoid the black level raise
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post #390 of 10650 Old 04-07-2010, 11:41 AM
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Hi All, very new to all of this but have a question maybe somebody in the group can answer - I have just pre ordered a Panasonic VT20 and have read on this group about burning in a new plasma could somebody please explain how and why this should be done.

regards dave
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