Originally Posted by happy nightmares
Furthermore, besides the plasmas sets from Pioneer, Panasonic and Samsung that I had in my home, I also spent weeks going around to every BestBuy, Circuit City (still in business at the time), Frys and Sears in the Dallas metroplex, examining more sets from more manufacturers. I can honestly say that I did not see a single plasma TV from ANY manufacturer that did not show line bleeding. Not one.
Greetings. But if you noticed, I never said I've seen a PDP that didn't exhibit line bleed either. It exists on my 500M, as I have stated on a number of occasions. However, there is a wide gulf between saying it merely exists on the one hand, and it is a "significant" problem on all sets.
I documented the line bleeding on the new Panasonic G10 I purchased here at the forum last year, only to be insulted by some Panasonic fanboys who claimed it didn't exist, or that something was wrong with my eyes.
Oh, I have seen plenty of line bleed on 2009 Panasonics, and other owners have complained about it too, so I don't discount this at all.
I moved on to Samsung and then Pioneer, with the same results.
I did not. Just like with the Panasonic, I have noticed line bleed on Samsung plasmas as well, both in my home and in the stores. I will take some pics if you like of a B860 (I bought a second one) right beneath my 500M, so people can see that there is a clear difference.
By the way, being an expert on TV calibration will not help somebody see line bleeding. Being an expert on TV technology will not help somebody see line bleeding.
Agreed. All anyone has to do is be trained to know what to look for, and be the type of person who is observant about these kinds of things. Some people are well-suited to making these observations, and others are totally oblivious. I have seen line bleed on all the plasmas I have bought, because I take the time to look for it, and I put content on them to see how they do. But I would not say they all showed it to the same extent. There was a wide disparity from the best to the worst.
So I don't care 'who' you check with, it doesn't change the facts. If you are sensitive to the issue, you will see it easily. If you are not sensitive to the issue, you won't see it, or you will have to look very hard for it.
Ahh, but you are the one claiming that it is very hard to detect on the new Panasonic VT20. (I do not dispute this, having not seen one yet). It did seem much better on the S2 vs. last year's S1, and perhaps the VT20 is even better. So this proves that there is a variation from year to year and even from model to model from within the same brand, and of course that would mean that there will be variation among different brands as well. So you are the one admitting that there is a variation, by claiming the new 3D Panasonic is superior. If line bleed does indeed vary because of different implementations of plasma technology, then you are simply helping to strengthen my point, that it is highly likely that it varied prior to 2010 as well. And in my experience that is exactly what is the case. It varied prior to 2010, and will continue to vary for the forseeable future. So then, we are back to square one, where I object to you making a blanket statement that plasmas in the last 2 years from all manufacturers exhibited this "significantly" and the Pioneers were no better. As I said, isn't it a curious coincidence that the line bleed is noticeably reduced on the 2010 Panasonics now that they are merging some of the Kuro technology with their own?
Furthermore, test patterns do NOT always show it. Only real content with it's endless variety will make this situation noticeable, and even then only to those people who are sensitive to it.
My testing includes using real content, not just static images.
As for types of sources... everything from network tv shows, blu-ray movies, cartoons/animation, and even video games. It's everywhere.
If it's everywhere
, how come the Pioneer threads are not brimming with complaints about this issue? Methinks you are either extremely hypersensitive to this issue, use picture settings (torch mode) which exacerbate the effects, perhaps sit very close to your TV, had a defective set, or a combination of any or all of these factors.
You mentioned boxing, and that's a good example. If a fighter is standing in front of the ropes, you can see faint traces of the rope lines which appear over his body, as if they go thru him. But that's just one example, and it doesn't show up in every single boxing match. What determines how and when it shows up is a mystery to me.
I don't watch boxing. Two grown men battering one another in the face is a stupid and brutal sport.
Is it possible that some units of the same model have line bleeding, while others don't? Yes it's possible.
Agreed. I have read posts where people had multiple V10's and claimed to see line bleeding on one, but not on another.
Since we don't know for sure all the possible causes, anything is possible. Is it possible that all the plasma TVs I've seen over the past 2 years were defective? No, I find this very unlikely. As far as I can tell (and I guarantee I've researched it more than most people here) line bleeding is inherent to plasma technology.
I don't dispute this. I just dispute that it is a "significant" problem on all brands/models. There is quite a bit of variation between different brands/models, and overly bright contrasty picture settings can make a bit of difference too.
Just because you personally don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.
Whoa. Did I say I did not see line bleed? Show me where I ever said this?
Finally, let me wrap up by saying that I was not trying to insult Pioneer in ANY way.
No problem. I didn't think you were, and it wouldn't make any difference if you did. I criticize my own Pioneer when it's warranted. I have mentioned multiple times here on AVS that I see phosphor lag on occasion, which can be mildly annoying. I have said that I believe Sammy processing is superior. I wish my Pioneer was quieter as it is not totally buzz/whine free. With certain content I can see PWM or dithering noise or whatever the technical types want to call it if I sit close to the screen and concentrate on it. Yes, I can even see minor line bleed, if I go looking for it. But it does not jump out at me like it did on my Sammy B860 for example, which exhibited the phenomenon to a much greater degree. My 500M was noticeably plus red out of the box, and I had dial it back. You should hear me complain about the dark greenish grays on blue-sky days when the sun shines in the room. Nothing is perfect. In a dim or darkened room my 500M is the nicest display I've seen around the 50 inch size, especially when you account for the wide viewing angles. Sony's OLED is only 11 inches, so it is not really comparable. But I think the B8500 will beat my 500M in a brighter room. In the dark it cannot match the Kuro. I will probably buy one in the near future to find out just how well it competes.
And I was not trying to say that Panasonic is better than Pioneer.
Makes no difference to me if they were. I would be glad if Panasonic surpassed Pioneer, because then I would have more options than just 50 or 60 inches, and of course the newer Panasonics can offer more features and gizmos than the older Pioneers, along with lower energy consumption. If Panasonic surpassed the Kuros I could acquire a nice 42 inch for the bedroom. Currently there are no 42 inch plasmas that impress me enough to want to keep one around for a while. So I am looking forward to the Pioneers being surpassed.
I was simply stating they had the line bleeding issue too, like the other manufacturers.
Ok. Fair enough. I can agree with that. But your comments certainly did leave one with the impression that there were no variations among brands, and that they were all "significantly" bad--so bad in fact, that you returned sets and tried other technologies. You must be verrrry sensitive to this issue to want to abandon plasmas altogether (at least for a time).
To you as well.