Official Panasonic TC-PxxVT20/25 Owners Thread NO PRICE TALK!! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

The only way to get rid of lag is to play 1080p games on a 1080p set. This wont be a problem next Gen as the Wii2, PS4 and next Xbox will be pumping out 1080p games as the standard....The Wii2 better not skimp out and go 720p or I'll be very dissapointed as I'm a huge Nintendo nut

Unfortunately, modern display lag is primarily as result of general video processing, not scaling. This means that 1080p can easily lag 50, 80, or 100+ ms (as evidenced in a number of recent tests). TV's are actually getting slower and slower with each passing model year, so who knows where we'll be by the next round of consoles.
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post #92 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 03:29 PM
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I talked to a sales rep who was at the Chicago Panasonic event today. Nothing too new to report but they're were told that the 65 inch will be mid - late May. That seems to fall in line with the other B&M report from earlier about 6/11.

It would be disappointing to hear that lag sucks on these sets.

-Nick
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post #93 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 03:29 PM
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THE DREADED BLACK LEVEL INCREASE...

OK so I've ben interested in this TV but have been weary about the black level issues. Went to the local Magnolia and was greeted by a guy that looked a lot like "The Situation" from MTVs Jersey Shore. It was really tough to take this guy seriously given the way he looked, but I digress. So I asked him about the VT20 and he said it was good but I should wait till the 25 comes out since the 20 is an entry level TV. I thought about reminding him that the "V" is there to designate their flagship models but I bit my tongue... I asked him about the differences between the 25 and 20 and he said oh, the 25 is the flagship, but gave me zero specs. Moving on I asked him about the black level "situation" (pun intended) and he gave me a very technical response. "I heard that stuff too but it's kinda made up. There's no proof, units haven't been around long enough." Well... aside from the 2009 models being out for a year and the fact that Panny currently has a lawsuit against them, it looks like some units have had a problem; but he's the expert here so I remianed quiet. What I wanted to know is if they had improved their voltage issue and his reply was, "If you get your TV calibrated you won't have changes in black level like that." So I'm not feeling so hot about it at this point, but finally he gave me some real information. I asked if I bought the extended service plan for a couple hundred bucks, would that cover black level. He said it absolutely would. So.... in the longest way possible, if there is a fear about the rising black level it's worth inquiring with your local Best Buy if it's covered under their extended warranty. I plan on only keeping any first gen 3D TV for about 3 years so it might work out pretty well as a safegaurd if there are indeed issues with some of the units. Just some food for thought.
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post #94 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Who View Post

I asked if I bought the extended service plan for a couple hundred bucks, would that cover black level. He said it absolutely would. So.... in the longest way possible, if there is a fear about the rising black level it's worth inquiring with your local Best Buy if it's covered under their extended warranty. I plan on only keeping any first gen 3D TV for about 3 years so it might work out pretty well as a safegaurd if there are indeed issues with some of the units. Just some food for thought.

I'd get that in writing before I actually purchased the plan. Then your other problem would be getting the "official" documentation that your MLL rose. Sure you can have a meter and do it yourself, but I wouldn't bet the farm that they will take your own initial readings as a baseline. Sure, all of this isn't rocket science, but I think it seems too far out of the norm of what Best Buy would do.

The guy fed you BS one the rest of your questions so why trust him on the protection plan statements.
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post #95 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 04:46 PM
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Soooo... No good for gaming then I guess? :s I'm doutbing to go for a vt20, but the black level issue combined with the input lag, which 'll be probably even a lot worse in 3D, which renders 3D gaming to a big nono kinda set me off...
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post #96 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikoDM View Post

Soooo... No good for gaming then I guess? :s I'm doutbing to go for a vt20, but the black level issue combined with the input lag, which 'll be probably even a lot worse in 3D, which renders 3D gaming to a big nono kinda set me off...

Not necessarily. Laptops are not an ideal test case, and mech has no point of reference for his. His values could either be accurate or off by full frames (16+ ms) one way or the other. I wouldn't draw any final conclusions until someone tests it against a CRT or can do a cross reference with the laptop they use (e.g. compare it to a CRT or a different display with known values).
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post #97 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikoDM View Post

Soooo... No good for gaming then I guess? :s I'm doutbing to go for a vt20, but the black level issue combined with the input lag, which 'll be probably even a lot worse in 3D, which renders 3D gaming to a big nono kinda set me off...

it's around 32ms lag in game mode

a typical lcd monitor will give you around 16ms - so you're not much slower with the vt20/vt25.

The bigger deal will be if 1080p 3D is limited to 24fps...

Which eliminates most of the appeal for this monitor, as you can get much cheaper displays that are less laggy in 2D.

-scheherazade
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post #98 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Who View Post

I asked if I bought the extended service plan for a couple hundred bucks, would that cover black level. He said it absolutely would. So.... in the longest way possible, if there is a fear about the rising black level it's worth inquiring with your local Best Buy if it's covered under their extended warranty. I plan on only keeping any first gen 3D TV for about 3 years so it might work out pretty well as a safegaurd if there are indeed issues with some of the units. Just some food for thought.

Just like everything else he was wrong or lying about, he also lied to you about the warranty. Panasonic considers this issue to be occuring as designed and not a defect and they are not entertaining requests for it to be repaired. Since it is not considered a defect by Panasonic, there is no way in hell that BB's warranty will cover it.

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post #99 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NikoDM View Post

Soooo... No good for gaming then I guess?

I think you might have gotten the wrong impression.

I'm behind reading the thread and have not seen every single post (very busy, two jobs) but here is what I can tell you, as a gamer who plays every day. Currently my main games are NHL10, Battlefield BAD COMPANY 2 and CODMW2. I play a lot more games, of all types and genres, but those of the ones I'm currently involved with that have an organized team, league or clan.

In my house, there is everything from CRT to DLP, LED, LCD and Plasma.

For the past couple weeks, before the V20, I've been primarily using the Samsung 8500 LED local-dimming LCD. For the most part, everyone in the house likes the TV, but we have not yet decided if we're keeping it. The VT20 will likely play a role in that decision.

I love the look of the 8500 when gaming. I loved it so much that I quit playing on most other TVs in the house the past couple weeks. However, the lag without Game mode activated was horrible. It did not take any instruments to detect that. So using the Game mode is a 'must' on the 8500.

Even with Game mode activated on the 8500, I could still detect lag but it was not enough to seriously affect my gameplay. Or at least that's what I thought. Over the years I've played on every type of monitor, Internet connection, network, etc... so I guess I have become accustomed to 'adjusting' to it.

When playing the same games on the VT20, I can tell there is less lag. And it was noticeable right from the start. Certain moves in NHL10 requiring multiple button presses or half-circle turns with the stick (similar to a fighting game) were quicker and more responsive. In BC2 and MW2 my aiming, quick turns and jumping felt the same way. There is simply no doubt in my mind the VT20 is faster than the 8500's game mode.

Perhaps when I originally said... "wow the VT20 is fast"... it would have been more accurate to say... "wow the 8500 is slow".

So please forgive me if I made the VT20 sound faster than it is. I had become accustomed to the Samsung, and it felt like my system had been given a boost when I switched to the VT20. So to me, things did feel 'fast'. At least by comparison.

The bottom line: I have no complaints about lag on this TV, and I think it's great for gaming. Things feel quick, accurate and responsive. And games LOOK excellent too. I appreciate having game graphics look as nice as possible without having to dial everything down. Of course with online multiplayer you need every edge you can get, but when I'm playing a single player game by myself, I want to fully enjoy the visuals.

I consider myself a fairly hard-core gamer, but I admit I'm not the type guy to worry about a few extra milliseconds, as long as the lag is not particularly awful to begin with. And in no way do I think the lag on this TV would fall into that category.

One day at a time...
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post #100 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a way you can compare the lag to your DLP? I know they are supposed to have zero lag. Mine doesn't seem to lag at all.

Oh, BTW, nice vid. I'm glad you didn't fart even though you could have! LOL
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post #101 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

even though you could have! LOL

Hahaha... shut up.

OK, you see, I have no idea why I said that. Initially the sound just threw me off when I was recording... so I thought I better say something... and I got nervous because I knew everybody would be watching... and that's what came out of my mouth. No idea why. And trust me, if I knew how to edit video that would have never been there.

One day at a time...
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post #102 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So what about game lag on your VT compared to your DLP?
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post #103 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSCTripleAgent View Post

I thought the fast phosphors were only on the VT25/3D models?

VT20 is also a 3D model.

If you guys want the "new and improved" input lag test is goes like so:

1) Take a video at 60fps or faster of you performing an action in a game with your console hooked to a CRT. The standard is to use Street Fighter 4, go to training mode, select Ryu, and have him jab the dummy. Make SURE the video captures both your finger pressing the button and the screen.

2) Do the same thing with the console hooked up to your HDTV

3) Compare the two videos frame by frame. Count the number of frames from when you press the button to when Ryu jabs and hits the dummy for both the CRT video and the HDTV video. Then multiply the difference in frames by 16.67 and that's your lag in milliseconds.

Note that you can use ANY game for this as long as there's a discrete point you can reference for the action happening, like the hit graphic effect in the above example, or for something easier to visualize, 8-Bit Mario going from standing to jumping.

It might sound kind of unscientific but with the right camera angle it's very easy to see when the button's been pressed.
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post #104 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

So what about game lag on your VT compared to your DLP?

I'm going back and forth tonight! Will tell you what I think ASAP.

By the way, some people don't believe me when I tell them how good the Mitsubishi DLP is for gaming. Apparently years ago DLP had a bad reputation for being laggy and it's still having trouble living it down. But these current DLP's are great. Very underrated, in many ways, not just gaming.

I know several other people have asked me questions that I haven't got to answer yet. I apologize. I'm not ignoring you or being rude. I just have a crazy schedule (home/work) right now, and usually pop in the forum for 5 minutes at a time. I hope to be caught up soon.

One day at a time...
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post #105 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy nightmares View Post

I'm going back and forth tonight! Will tell you what I think ASAP.

By the way, some people don't believe me when I tell them how good the Mitsubishi DLP is for gaming. Apparently years ago DLP had a bad reputation for being laggy and it's still having trouble living it down. But these current DLP's are great. Very underrated, in many ways, not just gaming.

I know several other people have asked me questions that I haven't got to answer yet. I apologize. I'm not ignoring you or being rude. I just have a crazy schedule (home/work) right now, and usually pop in the forum for 5 minutes at a time. I hope to be caught up soon.

I have a Smsung DLP HL-S5687W and it does not lag.
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post #106 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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As far as I can tell, my 1st gen Mits DLP doesn't have any lag. At one point I had to hook my 360 up to a CRT because my Mits was being serviced, and other than the screen being incredibly smaller, I couldn't tell any difference in the game play itself.
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post #107 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy nightmares View Post

I'm going back and forth tonight! Will tell you what I think ASAP.

By the way, some people don't believe me when I tell them how good the Mitsubishi DLP is for gaming. Apparently years ago DLP had a bad reputation for being laggy and it's still having trouble living it down. But these current DLP's are great. Very underrated, in many ways, not just gaming.

I know several other people have asked me questions that I haven't got to answer yet. I apologize. I'm not ignoring you or being rude. I just have a crazy schedule (home/work) right now, and usually pop in the forum for 5 minutes at a time. I hope to be caught up soon.

is it the latest generation? (xx737 or xx837, iirc)
did you ever do any input lag tests on it?

-scheherazade
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post #108 of 10650 Old 03-17-2010, 10:45 PM
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VGA Port Input Lag on the VT20
As requested, I did a lag input test using the VGA port of my VT20. The results can be seen on vimeo here:

vimeo.com/10250990
(Sorry its not a link. Forum still won't let me post urls yet)

Sampling a few frames, it is clear that the VGA port has the same lag as the HDMI ports. I see an input lag of ~30 milliseconds. Same as my HDMI "Game Mode" test result.

SD Broadcast quality
I spent some time today watching various SD broadcast content on the VT20 as well. I have Verizon Fios cable service which I think has very good picture quality compared to my previous providers, Time Warner Cable and RCN.

IMO the SD broadcasts look acceptable, all things considered. They are a bit "soft" which is to be expected given that they are being scaled up from 480i to 1080p. The quality is highly dependent on the original source material. An SD broadcast of CSI:NY will look significantly better on the VT20 than a crappy reality show for example.

Here are some photos of various SD broadcast material:








I would say that if you don't have access to a lot of HD TV channels, the VT20 is kinda overkill unless you plan to watch a lot of blu-ray movies or play a lot of console games. There is no particular feature of the VT20 that will improve the picture quality of SD sources that isn't also available in a G20/G25.

Hope this is useful.
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post #109 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 03:24 AM
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Well, seems like SD doesn't look bad at all..
Thanks for info and pictures, Mechashiva.
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post #110 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 07:04 AM
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hey @mechashiva2k

Please post pictures of your plasma from a side and back. Those pics a very hard to find in internet

THX
Josh
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post #111 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post

it's around 32ms lag in game mode

a typical lcd monitor will give you around 16ms - so you're not much slower with the vt20/vt25.

The bigger deal will be if 1080p 3D is limited to 24fps...

Which eliminates most of the appeal for this monitor, as you can get much cheaper displays that are less laggy in 2D.

-scheherazade


I don't think you are going to find a LCD in the VT's size and picture quality with the 16ms you quoted. I know the Sharp Aquos has been mentioned as not being too laggy, but are you willing to sacrifice that much for just 14ms?
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post #112 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 07:54 AM
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http://hdguru.com/panasonic-tc-p50vt...t-review/1391/
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The FHP disc motion resolution test provided excellent results. Enabling the anti-blur mode made the test pattern rock solid and exhibited full 1080 line per-picture-height motion resolution. The moving sign and license plate tests confirmed a significant reduction of phosphor lag. There were no signs of phosphor lag when we switched to viewing an action movie on Blu-ray disc.

Do any new owners of the VT series agree with the bolded statement from HDGuru? For owners who've noiced the yellow/green trails on previous plasma models, do you still see this artifact on your VT20? Is it a "significant reduction" compared to say, a Pioneer 8/9G? I ask since visible phosphor lag on Kuros is frequently noticable to me, and the V10 was an improvement over the 9Gs in this regard, but still not there...

(I already know what D-Nice and Xrox's take is....)
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post #113 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 08:32 AM
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What were Dnice test results for phosphor lag?
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post #114 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 08:35 AM
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good prelim comparison video for the Panny vt vs Sammy.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/v...1/72326491001/
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post #115 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

What were Dnice test results for phosphor lag?

He had given me a snide remark that I had no business looking at any of the '10 since he believes that they will not measure up to "my" standards - i.e. I'd still have a problem with phosphor lag, brightness limiting, and dithering artifacts on the VT series. Basically, he doesn't want me to state any of the issues I have with PDPs I've considered purchasing... So, I'm extremely curious to see one myself, and hear others experiences with this new series!

EDIT:


While videos such as this are not for PQ (also said by uploader), these videos can demonstrate phosphor lag. Watching this video it seems that the yellow/blue phosphor lag seems to be almost eliminated on this set! The user mentioned seeing "flickering" in light areas, but seems like a nice set.
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post #116 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 09:09 AM
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Has anyone seen a VT25 start showing up anywhere yet?
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post #117 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLGamwell View Post

good prelim comparison video for the Panny vt vs Sammy.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/v...1/72326491001/

We'll have to wait until the 7000/8000 plasmas are released to get a good comparison. Comparing plasma to lcd is a good start, but not really a good comparison as a whole.
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post #118 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TV-Junky View Post

hey @mechashiva2k

Please post pictures of your plasma from a side and back. Those pics a very hard to find in internet

THX
Josh

A side picture is possible but a rear view is going to require a lot of work and movement of furniture/equipment.

Do you have a specific question that isn't answered by looking at the owner's manual online (link previously posted in this thread)?
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post #119 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TV-Junky View Post

Please post pictures of your plasma from a side and back. Those pics a very hard to find in internet

THX
Josh

Here are some VT20 pictures:








LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #120 of 10650 Old 03-18-2010, 11:14 AM
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Here are some VT20 pictures:

Any bezel pictures to show color and texture.
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