Panasonic 2010 plasma: Floating blacks - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1569 Old 03-19-2010, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Floating Blacks:

I purchased a TC50G20 from Best Buy on March 6th. I also purchased their new Panasonic Blue Ray player. The THX setting mode out of the box is gorgeous. But wait, there's more.. The first blue ray I viewed was the Matrix, 10th Anniversary Edition. I loved this G20 until I saw the gamma levels change 4 times during the scene when Trinity rolls down the stairway and aims her guns up at the window. I also noticed the same "lightening and darkening" of the screen while watching a scene from Pirates 3 between on the ship at night.

I can rewind and watch it over again and can see it every time. This drives me nuts. What's frustrating is that the gamma/brightness shift is not simultaneous with the scene changing: the set takes a moment to adjust to the frame in the movie. This occurs even with the CATS setting off. A darker scene in the movie with more blacks causes the set to adjust and the blacks become "darker" a few moments later. It is so obvious that I am not able to watch blue rays in the dark at this time, and I'm even considering returning the set. Call me picky, fine. But I'm not happy about this issue. After tinkering, I realized that the shift is less evident when the set is watched on the "dark" setting found in the advanced menu. Also, on the "custom mode" set up, I can set the gamma to 2.6 on the pro menu and eliminate the problem. The downside with both these settings is I lose grays and contrast. No one I've spoken with at Panasonic even knows the difference between infinite black and infinite black pro, let alone what floating blacks are, really?

My question: Is there any way to fix or lesson this change? What causes floating blacks? Is this a power issue? Is it a tech issue? What alternative do I have other than the new Panasonic 2010 Plasma line to get great blacks? Will the v-series have this issue with the infinite black "pro" panel? These are my questions. Yes, I have adjusted the brightness multiple times and no fix. Any help will be appreciated.
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post #2 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 12:23 PM
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Here is a post describing Panasonic floating blacks:


05-15-09, 02:26 PM #35 | Link
PENDRAG0ON
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Considering how floating blacks isn't caused by the technology, but rather a processing algorithm, I doubt that he considers it a deal breaker, especially since it isn't an issue on Pioneer sets. (Sony LCDs and Samsung LED LCDs have this problem as well (though Sony fixed it on their 09 models with a firmware update) Panasonic plasma sets' "Real Black Drive" is what you should blame for their floating blacks, and it is something that they should dump or at least let us turn it off. (as should all TV sets that use this lousy feature) I haven't checked to see if their G series has this or not, but I will be sure to do so once I pick one up within the next week.

Something to remember though, if we don't complain about problems with these TV sets, then they won't fix said problems.
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post #3 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 12:49 PM
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I think D-Nice recommended to lower the brightness to help get rid of the floating black
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post #4 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 12:50 PM
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Doesn't the fact you can eliminate it with custom settings (at the expense of contrast) mean they're pumping the contrast level up artificially because it looks better for everything but dark scenes?

How bad does it look on custom? Have you tried calibrating it and seeing how true it actually is? Sometimes when you switch between modes even good modes can look dull compared to the amped up bad ones. It's only when you're not comparing and let your eyes adjust that you appreciate the true modes.

Or it could just be really awful on custom. Haven't seen one yet.
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post #5 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthead View Post

I think D-Nice recommended to lower the brightness to help get rid of the floating black

yes... but somedody tried this and it did not work.
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post #6 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick1000 View Post

Something to remember though, if we don't complain about problems with these TV sets, then they won't fix said problems.

I absolutely agree with you on this. People need to remember that this does not include message boards. If you really want this addressed then you need to call Panasonic and make them aware of how you feel. Just because someone else posted that they've talked to Panasonic doesn't mean you don't need to call them yourself. The more calls they get the more likely they are to do something about it.
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post #7 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

yes... but somedody tried this and it did not work.


Yeah that would be me. Turned my brightness down from a 54 to a 35 and could still see it. I am just giving up for now as i am going to get it calibrated in a month or so, so hopefully that will help a bit.
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post #8 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

yes... but somedody tried this and it did not work.

On my old Panasonic PV-60 I had to raise the brightness to avoid floating blacks. Above a certain level, the picture stopped to fluctuate.

I thougth Panasonic had overcome this problem by now. It is sad to hear about this problem again...
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post #9 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 04:16 PM
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How does the floating black level manifest itself? In other words does the black level go up (get brighter) when the APL is lowered?

BTW, the reason I ask is because the very same patent describing the rising black level of Panasonic plasmas also describes an embodiment where the black level is changed depending on APL.

The very same patent also described the real black drive very well.

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post #10 of 1569 Old 03-20-2010, 06:17 PM
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I thought it only affected the black bars and not the picture itself. Guess i was wrong. What a dumb thing for a company to put on a TV. Just have it stay one black, the whole time. So much to ask for?


Since this happens...whats the benefits of this? There has to be something becasue if it doesnt do a dam thing but annoy people, just DUMB.
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post #11 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 05:52 AM
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Here we go again!

It's not an issue ... it's a feature! C'mon guys, get with the program.

Does anyone do any quality testing anymore?



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post #12 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 12:33 PM
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I just finished cancelling my order for a 54G25 and I feel a lot better now. I did it for two reasons: A) the fraudulent price increase (over $100) I experienced after submitting my order via the PanasonicDirect EPP web site and B) the floating blacks issue.

Come on, Panasonic, isn't one lawsuit (pending in NJ currently) enough for you? I'm going to direct my business elsewhere; as of now, you have lost another loyal customer and I'm guessing I won't be the last!
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post #13 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 03:10 PM
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I went to Sammy. Everything seems a crapshoot nowadays. There are issues every direction you turn. Unfortunately, there really is no safe harbor...or even the semblance of one.



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post #14 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 03:25 PM
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>>The very same patent also described the real black drive very well.<<

xrox, what is the patent number? I would like to take a look at it.

BTW, free patent downloads at www.pat2pdf.org.
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post #15 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conversr View Post

xrox, what is the patent number? I would like to take a look at it.

patent application #20090021452

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post #16 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I talked with a rep at a high end store today. He told me Panasonic NEVER actually was able to buy the patents for the Pioneer technology. Yes, Panasonic did have a joint venture set to make a tv with Pioneer, but it never happened. Pioneer's tech's now work for Panasonic, but they are having to do things a different way. Panasonic never got the patents. That's why this is not Kuro, nor can they say it is.
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post #17 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 05:47 PM
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That does make a lot of sense. I never really did read that the Pioneer patents had been transferred. Will have to go back and re-read the relevant news items and industry insider info.

Edit: No, I just read the Pioneer Annual Report for 2009 and it is clearly stated that the patents were transferred to Panny as discussed in April and executed in May. This is why it will take at least until 2011 for Kuro lineage technology to ever reliably be incorporated in Panny panel tech.



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post #18 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffwine03 View Post

I talked with a rep at a high end store today. He told me Panasonic NEVER actually was able to buy the patents for the Pioneer technology. Yes, Panasonic did have a joint venture set to make a tv with Pioneer, but it never happened. Pioneer's tech's now work for Panasonic, but they are having to do things a different way. Panasonic never got the patents. That's why this is not Kuro, nor can they say it is.

He didn't know what he was talking about. I got the Pioneer press release saying all patents were transferred to panasonic if you want to see it. Like I have said before even if Panasonic owns the patents they aren't going to just abandon their technology and use another companies. They would most likely compare the two technologies and improve the areas where the two technologies differ.
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post #19 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffwine03 View Post

I talked with a rep at a high end store today. He told me Panasonic NEVER actually was able to buy the patents for the Pioneer technology. Yes, Panasonic did have a joint venture set to make a tv with Pioneer, but it never happened. Pioneer's tech's now work for Panasonic, but they are having to do things a different way. Panasonic never got the patents. That's why this is not Kuro, nor can they say it is.


You were talking to A High End Ignorant Moron. Pioneer put the sale of their patents to Panasonic, and how much they were paid for them, in their financial statements.
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post #20 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mlsherwood View Post

I just finished cancelling my order for a 54G25 and I feel a lot better now. I did it for two reasons: A) the fraudulent price increase (over $100) I experienced after submitting my order via the PanasonicDirect EPP web site and B) the floating blacks issue.

Come on, Panasonic, isn't one lawsuit (pending in NJ currently) enough for you? I'm going to direct my business elsewhere; as of now, you have lost another loyal customer and I'm guessing I won't be the last!

i dont blame you...however i think this is going to get exaggerated. ive only noticed the floating blacks on 1 part of 1 movie. is it annoying? yes. is it a deal breaker? no.

as this seems like a problem in the way the tv processes data, im not too worried about it and im sure it will get "fixed" in a firmware.

the only thing any panasonic owner has to really worry about is the rising blacks, but ive already accepted that before i even bought my g20.

anyone unhappy with this issue needs to contact panasonic, as i will. i also agree that its a little ridiculous that there isnt more QC in these businesses, not just the hdtv market, but every company from car manufacturers to television makers dont seem like they QC check anything anymore...
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post #21 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 06:48 PM
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I have not noticed any "floating blacks" on my VT20.

However I did see an African-American man flying on a magic carpet last night (in a movie).

But I guess that doesn't count.

One day at a time...
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post #22 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 07:01 PM
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As the owner of a 54V10 having this problem in spades and having complained about it on this board numerous times and then finally giving up, I laugh nervously in nobody's general direction.
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post #23 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

You were talking to A High End Ignorant Moron. Pioneer put the sale of their patents to Panasonic, and how much they were paid for them, in their financial statements.

Yep. Never seen floating blacks on my 42S1 or any 2009 Panasonic PDP.
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post #24 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 08:35 PM
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Can probally be fixed by a firmware update but we just need to contact then and let them know! I watched Fight Club today during the day and i could still see the blacks change but its a lot better than watching in a dark room. I usally watch in both settings.
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post #25 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Are owners of the VT20/25 having any issues with floating blacks?
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post #26 of 1569 Old 03-21-2010, 11:04 PM
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I just bought a 50" LG, I'll email panasonic and tell them why
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post #27 of 1569 Old 03-22-2010, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roobieroo View Post

I absolutely agree with you on this. People need to remember that this does not include message boards. If you really want this addressed then you need to call Panasonic and make them aware of how you feel. Just because someone else posted that they've talked to Panasonic doesn't mean you don't need to call them yourself. The more calls they get the more likely they are to do something about it.

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post #28 of 1569 Old 03-22-2010, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

How does the floating black level manifest itself? In other words does the black level go up (get brighter) when the APL is lowered?

Just personal interest but if someone could try and describe how the floating blacks present themselves with regards to APL that would be great

BTW, APL is Average Picture Level which can be equated to how bright the overall screen is or % of screen at full white or average brightness....etc

So if a bright scene switches to a dark scene....what does the black level do?

If a dark scene switches to a bright scene what does the black level do?

Cheers

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post #29 of 1569 Old 03-22-2010, 10:58 AM
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Try this; find a very dark scene and a very long. Wait until the subtitles shows, or force the subtitles on and off, of the picture. If the picture gets brighter when the subtitles comes then you will instantly know what to look for.

Loop that scene and play with the brigtness settings. Often the "effect" shows when brightness is set lower. Sometimes the fluctuation stop if you raise the brightness.
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post #30 of 1569 Old 03-22-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surap View Post

Try this; find a very dark scene and a very long. Wait until the subtitles shows, or force the subtitles on and off, of the picture. If the picture gets brighter when the subtitles comes then you will instantly know what to look for.

Loop that scene and play with the brigtness settings. Often the "effect" shows when brightness is set lower. Sometimes the fluctuation stop if you raise the brightness.

Not sure if you were responding to my post or not. I should have stated that I don't want to see the effect (as I don't have a Panasonic PDP). I just need a simple description of the direction of black level shift (up or down) with respect to APL so that I can cross reference the information from the patent I mentioned to the information here.

Cheers

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