Screw it! I'm just gonna go buy an LED (unless someone talks me off the ledge) - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 148 Old 04-06-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Suteki View Post

I myself laugh at half the threads on this forum because way to many people are anal about **** they'll never truly be able to see or even have any reference too once a set is home. I bought a Samsung plasma because I liked how sharp the image was; it didn't seem to suffer from the same level of dancing pixels that I have always seen from Panasonics (this **** absolutely drives me nuts) and because I play a lot of games, I wanted an image that was as sharp as possible, or at least as sharp as what my previous LED was. It isn't, but it's closer than the Panasonic. I also really liked the colours the set was able to punch out, the amount of features it had for the money and that it's a nice looking television even when turned off, the Panasonics imo just look horrendous.

You laugh at threads because people are anal about stuff they'll never truly be able to see, yet YOU chose Samsung over Panasonic because they don't have the 'dancing pixels'? Meanwhile, most Panasonic owners don't ever see the 'dancing pixels'. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this paragraph?

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Originally Posted by Suteki View Post

That being said, I know the Panasonics do better blacks and shadow detail. The difference to me however, is negligible when anything other than black is on screen, with colours and some brighter images on screen the black level looks excellent and this is how virtually images on screen are shown. As soon as colour and brightness is added, the contrast between what is 'black' and what is 'inky black' becomes nearly indistinguishable without a side by side comparison.

And the difference to others is far from negligible.

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Originally Posted by Suteki View Post

Basically I sometimes feel people here are entering a dick waving competition; everyone gets out there light and colour meters to even tell the difference. I hear people say **** like 'I wouldn't buy a Samsung / LG because the blacks are utterly shithouse.' I can only laugh at that ****.

I'm not arguing with anyone that there is no differences between TV's or that some do things better than others, but some people suggest there are such massive differences between some of these TV's that it's a life or death scenario. Personally, I think both the Samsung and Panasonic line up of TV's are phenomenal. Haven't looked into LG enough to make a decision there.

Panasonic's lineup is phenomenal, yet you chose not to buy one due to the 'dancing pixels'? So why would you consider them phenomenal if you notice a problem when viewing them that "absolutely drives nuts"?

Of course I agree that there are a lot of people on AVSforums who exaggerate to the nth degree about certain flaws or features, but its pretty darn easy to filter out the noise.
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post #122 of 148 Old 04-06-2010, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Well I've seen IR on my 500M and it buzzes too.

Never had IR on my 600M. And my brother-in-law has a 500M and has not had any IR on his panel. IR has been reported on this forum from an extremely small minority of owners of 9G panels, but the vast majority of all comments I've seen report NO IR at all. So I think the basic fact is that the Pioneer 9G panels have very little incidence of IR and is likely isolated to a minority of panels. It is a sad fact however that many plasma panels suffer from this and this propagates the false assumption that all plasmas suffer from IR. I also owned a 6th gen commercial Panasonic that never displayed IR. In fact, I will not buy a panel that suffers from IR - palsma or not.

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post #123 of 148 Old 04-06-2010, 06:56 PM
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Had a Toshiba Regza 55XV670U LED Local Dimming for 3 Months.
The combination of Blooming Effect and Angle Viewing degradation drove me crazy.
I sold it and got a TC-P58V10 never to look back!
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post #124 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

You laugh at threads because people are anal about stuff they'll never truly be able to see, yet YOU chose Samsung over Panasonic because they don't have the 'dancing pixels'? Meanwhile, most Panasonic owners don't ever see the 'dancing pixels'. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this paragraph?


And the difference to others is far from negligible.



Panasonic's lineup is phenomenal, yet you chose not to buy one due to the 'dancing pixels'? So why would you consider them phenomenal if you notice a problem when viewing them that "absolutely drives nuts"?

Of course I agree that there are a lot of people on AVSforums who exaggerate to the nth degree about certain flaws or features, but its pretty darn easy to filter out the noise.

As I said, I use my Plasma primarily for games. The dancing pixel thing drove 'me' nuts, as it detracted from how sharp the image was. However my point wasn't that people should buy one brand over another, it's about people parroting what they heard from others and then believing it would affect them as well. ie. If I listened to what others here have said, Samsungs have absolutely atrocious blacks and will all buzz, without exception.

I'm simply suggesting people take some of what they see here with a grain of salt and have a look at the sets themselves as much of what goes on around here is hear say or people simply regurgitating what they've heard in another thread.
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post #125 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Never had IR on my 600M. And my brother-in-law has a 500M and has not had any IR on his panel. IR has been reported on this forum from an extremely small minority of owners of 9G panels, but the vast majority of all comments I've seen report NO IR at all. So I think the basic fact is that the Pioneer 9G panels have very little incidence of IR and is likely isolated to a minority of panels. It is a sad fact however that many plasma panels suffer from this and this propagates the false assumption that all plasmas suffer from IR. I also owned a 6th gen commercial Panasonic that never displayed IR. In fact, I will not buy a panel that suffers from IR - palsma or not.

I have never noticed even the slightest hint of IR on either of my 500Ms. One of them has a slight buzz, but not to the point where its noticeable all the time. My 8th gen commercial Panny exhibited a slight amount of IR and my Panny consumer PX70, 75 and X1 all exhibit a little more IR, but not enough to even really be annoyed by it.
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post #126 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suteki View Post

As I said, I use my Plasma primarily for games. The dancing pixel thing drove 'me' nuts, as it detracted from how sharp the image was. However my point wasn't that people should buy one brand over another, it's about people parroting what they heard from others and then believing it would affect them as well. ie. If I listened to what others here have said, Samsungs have absolutely atrocious blacks and will all buzz, without exception.

I'm simply suggesting people take some of what they see here with a grain of salt and have a look at the sets themselves as much of what goes on around here is hear say or people simply regurgitating what they've heard in another thread.

Have to back this up; if I took what I read here as gospel, I would have never bought the amazing Samsung B650 that I own now. I almost didn't buy one because of all the buzzing reports I'd read, but so glad I took a chance. The buzz issue is a great example of one that's blown completely out of proportion; new owners are actually crawling behind their televisions and putting their ear to the back of their sets to see if they can hear a buzz and then reporting that they can. Obviously, if one has to crawl behind their television to hear anything then they don't have a buzzing issue.

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post #127 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 09:26 AM
 
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*Creates a distraction until experts come*

Watch This!


By far, without a doubt, this is the best response to a post I have EVER come across! Bravo to you sir, bravo!
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post #128 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 09:31 AM
 
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To the OP, I suggest you look into DLP. I know this is a plasma forum, but since you brought up LED LCD well I figure anything goes. I'll take a DLP over LCD, Plasma or CRT, the picture quality is that good!
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post #129 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

To the OP, I suggest you look into DLP. I know this is a plasma forum, but since you brought up LED LCD well I figure anything goes. I'll take a DLP over LCD, Plasma or CRT, the picture quality is that good!

Viewing angle is a bit of deal breaker for me on rear projection where on a big screen parts of the picture would dim depending on angle of viewing. I also feel like (from viewing both types) the flat panels have a sharper picture than the rear projection units.
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post #130 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

The buzz issue is a great example of one that's blown completely out of proportion; new owners are actually crawling behind their televisions and putting their ear to the back of their sets to see if they can hear a buzz and then reporting that they can. Obviously, if one has to crawl behind their television to hear anything then they don't have a buzzing issue.

I find this funny as well. As soon as one person reports buzzing everyone crawls behind their TV and posting they intend to return it b/c of the buzz. In the meantime when sitting at viewing position they can't hear anything even when there's no sound in the program. On my Kuro I never hear buzz unless I'm behind it messing with cables while it's on.
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post #131 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

I find this funny as well. As soon as one person reports buzzing everyone crawls behind their TV and posting they intend to return it b/c of the buzz. In the meantime when sitting at viewing position they can't hear anything even when there's no sound in the program. On my Kuro I never hear buzz unless I'm behind it messing with cables while it's on.

If my Kuro had only buzzed behind the set then I would still have it, it was easily audible over normal content. My current Samsung 50c450 also has an annoying buzz at normal viewing distances. (My 42px75 only has a faint hum from behind the set for comparison) Not all talk of buzz on these sets are over-exaggerations.

As for burn in on a Kuro, it is possible, a friend of mine has a 5010 and it has 4:3 uneven wear thanks to his kids and their viewing habits. (they make up over 70% of what is watched on that set) I've yet to burn-in any plasma set with my well above average gaming habits though, even the heavily IR prone Samsung that I have now.

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post #132 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 11:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

Viewing angle is a bit of deal breaker for me on rear projection where on a big screen parts of the picture would dim depending on angle of viewing. I also feel like (from viewing both types) the flat panels have a sharper picture than the rear projection units.

No viewing angle issues with my DLP. My CRT had some but not DLP.
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post #133 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

No viewing angle issues with my DLP. My CRT had some but not DLP.

Is that even possible? Isn't it a problem inherent in rear projection technology?
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post #134 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 12:57 PM
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^^^yes it is an inherent problem. If you run the set in torch mode it's not as bad but still present.

Unlike some lcds where there's a definite color and black level shift if you get the least bit off center the dlp set will look fine as long as you're not at more than about a 45 degree angle from the center of the set, the further away you sit the less critical this is, but there is a definite dropoff if you exceed this. It's also much worse in the vertical dimension than horizontal.

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post #135 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 01:05 PM
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I went from a Panny PZ700U to a LG LED and I love it. Great picture, ISF controls out of the box, and looks great.
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post #136 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

^^^yes it is an inherent problem. If you run the set in torch mode it's not as bad but still present.

Unlike some lcds where there's a definite color and black level shift if you get the least bit off center the dlp set will look fine as long as you're not at more than about a 45 degree angle from the center of the set, the further away you sit the less critical this is, but there is a definite dropoff if you exceed this. It's also much worse in the vertical dimension than horizontal.

^^^^^^^This is incorrect information. My set is certainly not at "torch level" I have no more viewing angle issues with my DLP than any plasma I have seen. Concerning LCD, there is no contest, LCD is the worst. As I said earlier, my CRT RP has a viewing issue, my DLP does not. That is an overblown myth and plenty of other people will say the same.
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post #137 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

^^^^^^^This is incorrect information. My set is certainly not at "torch level" I have no more viewing angle issues with my DLP than any plasma I have seen. Concerning LCD, there is no contest, LCD is the worst. As I said earlier, my CRT RP has a viewing issue, my DLP does not. That is an overblown myth and plenty of other people will say the same.

Just doesn't seem possible that a rear proj doesn't darken when you're off axis. Like Steve said it's much worse vertically than horizontally. This issue is actually primary reason my brother wants a flat panel b/c he likes to play guitar hero standing up but the picture is bad when viewing from standing. I replaced my old DLP with a 50" plasma partially due to the couch on the side being at right around 45 degrees off axis.
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post #138 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

^^^^^^^This is incorrect information. My set is certainly not at "torch level" I have no more viewing angle issues with my DLP than any plasma I have seen. Concerning LCD, there is no contest, LCD is the worst. As I said earlier, my CRT RP has a viewing issue, my DLP does not. That is an overblown myth and plenty of other people will say the same.

My DLP definitely dropped in brightness/saturation when off-angle. Heck, even straight on the screen was not entirely uniform as the corners of the screen would be slightly darker than the center. Every RP DLP I have ever seen was similar.

Add in geometry problems, the awful SSE that all RP DLPs have as well as their mediocre contrast and my plasma crushes my DLP pretty much completely.
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post #139 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 02:45 PM
 
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Well, we play the Wii standing and no issues at all. Geometry is excellent on my set and SSE/RB effects are user specific as no one in my family (or anyone else that has seen it) has complained or even mentioned SSE/RB, even when asked about it. ANd I have edge to edge goodness. No complaint.

I'll be the first to admit that DLP isn't for everybody. But it should not be discounted based on rumors and myths.
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post #140 of 148 Old 04-07-2010, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Well, we play the Wii standing and no issues at all. Geometry is excellent on my set and SSE/RB effects are user specific as no one in my family (or anyone else that has seen it) has complained or even mentioned SSE/RB, even when asked about it. ANd I have edge to edge goodness. No complaint.

I'll be the first to admit that DLP isn't for everybody. But it should not be discounted based on rumors and myths.

I'm sorry, but off-angle dimming with ANY rear projection display is a well documented phenomenon. I am a big front projector DLP fan, and was previously a big Rear projection DLP fan as well. I've had a couple of these sets, and have family members who still have some of the more recent models. Unless they have completely revolutionized and fundamentally changed the screen materials in the last two years, off angle dimming is not a myth or a rumor, its a fact. Its true that it has vastly improved from the old Rear CRT days, but the basic fundamentals of rear screen technology is still the same.

Its one thing to say that its not enough dimming to bother you, but its quite another to say it doesn't exist at all.
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post #141 of 148 Old 04-08-2010, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

I find this funny as well. As soon as one person reports buzzing everyone crawls behind their TV and posting they intend to return it b/c of the buzz. In the meantime when sitting at viewing position they can't hear anything even when there's no sound in the program. On my Kuro I never hear buzz unless I'm behind it messing with cables while it's on.

I'd consider myself a pretty fair person and I do believe there maybe some more prone to hearing this than others (which like I said, most people I read complain about buzz, whether they themselves have ever heard it or they are just repeating someone else however is generally my point, I don't doubt some have been scared off a set because of this supposed issue that some have likely never had themselves but argued black and blue that all the sets do it).

I don't doubt some people have had this problem, and theres enough to consider it legitimate and I don't discredit those that might have experienced it themselves. I'm wondering whether it's a power issue though. I'm in Australia, we use 240v @ 50hz and I've never ever heard this buzzing sound. maybe I just can't hear it, or maybe it's a problem with the 110v @ 60hz models, as many that I see complaining about it seem to reside in the states. Possiblity?
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post #142 of 148 Old 04-08-2010, 09:53 AM
 
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Its true that it has vastly improved from the old Rear CRT days, but the basic fundamentals of rear screen technology is still the same.

I did some testing last nite. I guess you guys are right. But the dimming is so minmal it really isn't an issue in the least. As I said before, my CRT RP absolutely has the dimming issue, but my DLP I can't really tell unless I am looking for it.
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post #143 of 148 Old 04-08-2010, 12:18 PM
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^^^I have an rptv myself, Sony SXRD, and in my situation the off-angle dimming is a non issue since all my seating is within a 45 degree angle to the screen.

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post #144 of 148 Old 04-09-2010, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Got my pro-101fd today. I turned it on, looked at it for about a minute and shot my wad. The most amazing picture ever. Hands down.

To those who are looking for a television. Stop looking at other brands. If it's in your price range, just buy a Kuro. Period.
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post #145 of 148 Old 04-11-2010, 06:24 PM
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That's funny dude, "Just buy a Kuro". Hey, I think you just might have given Pioneer their advertising tag line........hilarious.........that and your "just shot my wad.......lol
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post #146 of 148 Old 04-11-2010, 06:46 PM
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Hey if we all listened to other peoples negative opinions we would not be able to buy a single tv lol. That being said you have to weight up all the positives and negatives and make a choice based on what you are suited to. Im very sensitive to any small flaws and always have been so i always find it hard to choose AV equipment.
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post #147 of 148 Old 04-11-2010, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by chadsherk View Post

Why can't I just go get an LED?

* motion resolution
* viewing angle
* black level
* screen uniformity
* and often, input lag, for gaming.

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post #148 of 148 Old 04-12-2010, 10:15 AM
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* motion resolution
* viewing angle
* black level
* screen uniformity
* and often, input lag, for gaming.

*price?
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