The Official Samsung PNxxC6500, PNxxC7000, and PNxxC8000 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by christberg View Post

Not any worse than 2D. IR was almost nonexistent out of the box and as I use the TV more what little was there is disappearing mighty quick.

I ran 3D for about 3-4 hours, a couple of those letterboxed yesterday and it was fine.

To add on to what I was saying earlier about M vs A. not being a good 3D showcase:

I believe the problem is the 3:2 pulldown for each eye. What happens is that when you have a ton of stuff flying around the screen with really fast pans either the judder or minor differences in how the MJC works cause you to get artifacting/ghosting. It's even worse on LCDs because of the general motion resolution being worse.

The reason Planet Earth works so damn well is because it's got lots of big objects with nice, slow panning.

...compare M vs A with the 3D demos Panasonic is running. Personally, I believe that (on the plasmas at least) the technology has about equivalent PQ. IMO a good chunk of why folks are more impressed with the panasonic demo are:

A: backlight uniformity on the LCD sticking out because of the jacked up brightness and the relative darkness of a lot of M vs. A

B: more importantly, the Panasonic having demo material that better suits the limitations of the technology.

can you use cinema smooth while on 3d to negate the 3:2 pulldown?
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post #272 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christberg View Post

To add on to what I was saying earlier about M vs A. not being a good 3D showcase:

I believe the problem is the 3:2 pulldown for each eye. What happens is that when you have a ton of stuff flying around the screen with really fast pans either the judder or minor differences in how the MJC works cause you to get artifacting/ghosting. It's even worse on LCDs because of the general motion resolution being worse.

The reason Planet Earth works so damn well is because it's got lots of big objects with nice, slow panning.

...compare M vs A with the 3D demos Panasonic is running. Personally, I believe that (on the plasmas at least) the technology has about equivalent PQ. IMO a good chunk of why folks are more impressed with the panasonic demo are:

A: backlight uniformity on the LCD sticking out because of the jacked up brightness and the relative darkness of a lot of M vs. A

B: more importantly, the Panasonic having demo material that better suits the limitations of the technology.

Doesnt MvsA have blur in the animation anyway? I thought I read that from the people tha made it, that they have blur within the animations (on purpose). Could this give the illusion of more ghosting than there really is?

:)
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post #273 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

can you use cinema smooth while on 3d to negate the 3:2 pulldown?

No, and even if you could you wouldn't want to because it'd be 96hz TOTAL, not for each eye. MJC (Cinema Smooth) does work though, and it works GREAT.
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post #274 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NJChris View Post

Doesnt MvsA have blur in the animation anyway? I thought I read that from the people tha made it, that they have blur within the animations (on purpose). Could this give the illusion of more ghosting than there really is?

If that's true it definitely could be part of the problem. Another part has to do with the amount of time in the cooker- the trailer for How to Train your Dragon is basically 99% unwatchable due to all the artifacting and it's NOT the TV's fault.
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post #275 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by christberg View Post

No, and even if you could you wouldn't want to because it'd be 96hz TOTAL, not for each eye. MJC (Cinema Smooth) does work though, and it works GREAT.

i thought cinema smooth and motion judder canceller were two different things
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post #276 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 12:34 PM
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Just looked up the pn63c7000 on amazon and they have it up as coming soon, and the pn58c7000 looks like an April 23 release date. Anybody here work at bb, and can find out when the pn63c7000 will be available for purchase?
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post #277 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

i thought cinema smooth and motion judder canceller were two different things

Yeah, but the aim of both is to reduce judder. One of them does it via image processing and the other does it by using a refresh rate that's a direct multiple of 24hz.
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post #278 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by christberg View Post

Yeah, but the aim of both is to reduce judder. One of them does it via image processing and the other does it by using a refresh rate that's a direct multiple of 24hz.

oh gotcha, thanks for the info
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post #279 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 01:57 PM
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So, while a newbie to plasma TVs I am also surprised with the black level of the c7000 plasma. No offense to Chad meant, but I am wondering if there are any other reviews of the c7000 out there? Chris says that it's only two shades of gray different than the G20 but Chad has not yet issued an evaluation on this issue that reviewers generally do.

Is this black level noticeably problematic in a dark room? I am planning to buy a plasma for my basement, which has no windows and I don't want gray where I should see black.

Is the 3D worth it? I've gone through the entire thread and most seem to really like it?

Or should I go with the bigger 58B650 which has cinema smooth? or even with the 63B550 to get a better cinematic experience.

Assuming that Chad's measurements are correct, it seems that people will only buy the Samsung if they love the 3D conversion...
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post #280 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ystasino View Post

So, while a newbie to plasma TVs I am also surprised with the black level of the c7000 plasma. No offense to Chad meant, but I am wondering if there are any other reviews of the c7000 out there? Chris says that it's only two shades of gray different than the G20 but Chad has not yet issued an evaluation on this issue that reviewers generally do.

Is this black level noticeably problematic in a dark room? I am planning to buy a plasma for my basement, which has no windows and I don't want gray where I should see black.

Is the 3D worth it? I've gone through the entire thread and most seem to really like it?

Or should I go with the bigger 58B650 which has cinema smooth? or even with the 63B550 to get a better cinematic experience.

Assuming that Chad's measurements are correct, it seems that people will only buy the Samsung if they love the 3D conversion...

I'd wait for a few more reviews before calling Chad's review the final word on its black levels. I can tell you that in my experience with minimal tweaking my C8000 is obviously darker than my old A550 LCD and if Chad's review were correct the opposite would be the case.

No offense to Chad, he's doing us a great service with these reviews and I'm 100% confident that he's a competent, professional calibrator that knows exactly what he's doing.

Plus, simply because of the screen uniformity and color reproduction the C7000/C8000 comes out better in a dark room, regardless. Even in 3D mode (where the plasma is brighter than my LCD.)

I have pictures that prove it but the IQ is terrible on them so I won't be posting it. My camera SUCKS.
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post #281 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 02:22 PM
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Hey guys, this is my first post EVER on AVS forum! However, i have been visiting the forum for quite some time. I too would love to see some more reviews of the C7000(not to take anything away from Chad). It would be really cool if it or the C8000 had a much lower MLL. I would like to ask you guys what your feelings on Samsung brand reliability is compared to other companies? I really like their new plasmas, but i do hear bad things about some of their products, but i am not sure how much if any of those are legitimate. So, if you guys have any experience with the brand, especially their plasmas, let me now what you think of them quality/build wise. Thanks in advance
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post #282 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 03:12 PM
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I would like to ask you guys what your feelings on Samsung brand reliability is compared to other companies?

One thing that differentiates Samsung from others is that they will pay a local tech to come and fix your screen in your house if it has a problem without charge.
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post #283 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 03:19 PM
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thanks Ystasino, that's good to know; I appreciate the feedback.
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post #284 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christberg View Post

No offense to Chad, he's doing us a great service with these reviews and I'm 100% confident that he's a competent, professional calibrator that knows exactly what he's doing.

Agreed - Chad rocks. He admitted that it is possible that this black was artificially high due to being in high contrast mode beforehand. Another measurement is needed.

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Originally Posted by christberg View Post

Plus, simply because of the screen uniformity and color reproduction the C7000/C8000 comes out better in a dark room, regardless.

You mean better than a G20?
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post #285 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Grana View Post

Last week I get my new C7000 from bb (exchangin for my over heated broken b850)
My first impression of my C7000:
This Tv is cooler than my last b850.
Less image retention.
No buzz at all.........
The only issue is the Motion Judder Canceling option is always ON , making the picture soap opera effect , I fix it going to the service menu (mute 1-8-2) and changed the TV model to C8000.
I get new menu options , included the Motion Judder Canceling ON and OFF.
3D: I am waiting for the glasess (not available yet in bb miami beach) yet.

How do you do this exactly. I've read you input the code when the TV is off and hit power. Once in the service menu, where do you go and how do you get there- remote inputs? Would like a step by step. When finished, how do you exit service menu?

Thanks.
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post #286 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 04:54 PM
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You mean better than a G20?

Sorry, I should clarify that. I'm referring to my old LCD, where even if the black levels were "worse" on my new plasma it still winds up coming out miles ahead because the screen uniformity, shadow detail and color reproduction.

Comparing to a G20/25 I'd say...

I'm sure a G20 has better blacks out of the box but the C7000/8000 TVs are much more adjustable. With calibration in a "normal" lighting environment they should look better. The blacks look 100% black on my C8000 with even a single, dim overhead bulb.

The C8000 has better anti-judder features too. Overall I'd say the 8000 is definitely a better TV, but it damn well better be given the price difference. With the current bundles out there the price is a lot closer than you'd expect, too.

The C7000 winds up being about the same cost as a G20/25 (350 for the 2 glasses + movie and 350 for the C6900 BD player.) The above applies to it as well, but to a lesser degree.

Overall, competition in the plasma midrange is tight this year, which is a good thing for everyone involved.

If you're watching in a pitch black room and don't care about 3D (demo it first) then I'd get the G20. If you're watching in a normally lit room and you like to really dial in your picture, get the C7000.

If you're going 3D in the 50" range:

You care about judder and calibration
You're not watching in a dark room...

I'd 100% pick the C8000 over the VT20 or the 7000 like I did. The LEDs aren't even in the running due to the high cost per inch, IMO.

3D conversion works really well and is a sore spot on the VT20. Plus because of bundle deals the C8000 is a way cheaper TV. The main difference (black level) isn't going to matter at all in my viewing environment.

People looking for the 3D, full on theater room experience should be looking at the VT25s though. In this environment, size matters a lot more. 65" is the biggest 3DTV this year and their performance in a dark environment will be notably superior. AFAIK 3D projectors aren't coming any time soon or will be expensive and 3D DLPs are lacking in the resolution department.

To me, 3D is worth it, even if you're not totally sold on it yet. The reason is that although I'm not convinced it's the future, I am absolutely convinced Hollywood WILL try to cram it down our throats in the next year or two whether we want it or not. For that reason alone, I recommend anyone buying a TV consider 3D as a must just to avoid missing out on stuff. Just the thought of having to buy another several thousand dollar gadget in 2 more years is nauseating to me.

For me, the choice came down to "what's the most cost effective 3D TV with the best calibration options I can buy?" The answer is pretty clear: the PN50C8000!

...this is sounding too much like a commercial. I'm obviously very happy with my purchase!
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post #287 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powermonkey24 View Post

Just looked up the pn63c7000 on amazon and they have it up as coming soon, and the pn58c7000 looks like an April 23 release date. Anybody here work at bb, and can find out when the pn63c7000 will be available for purchase?

Stilll not exactlly sure on the PN63C7000, but we did get the PN63C550 in

Quote:
Originally Posted by christberg View Post

No offense to Chad, he's doing us a great service with these reviews and I'm 100% confident that he's a competent, professional calibrator that knows exactly what he's doing.

Its possible that we got a unit that is not quite as good as others. No two units are the same.
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post #288 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by christberg View Post

People looking for the 3D, full on theater room experience should be looking at the VT25s though. In this environment, size matters a lot more. 65" is the biggest 3DTV this year and their performance in a dark environment will be notably superior. AFAIK 3D projectors aren't coming any time soon or will be expensive and 3D DLPs are lacking in the resolution department.

Time will tell on that one. There isn't a ton of difference between 63" and 65" and we'll have to see how both the 63C8000 and 65VT25 spar against each other once they both come out at those sizes (I say that since the Panny's seem to have lower black levels the larger the size). Once we get the initial MLL for the VT25 then we'll know about how it will compare to the 8000 by multiplying it by 3. We'll just have to wait and see.
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post #289 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 09:07 PM
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Has anyone had a chance to test the input lag on the Samsungs?
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post #290 of 7937 Old 04-12-2010, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

...
we did get the PN63C550 in
....

any chances of doing a review? Given the cost and minor issues with this year's 3D plasmas, I'm leaning heavily towards a lower cost alternative and upgrading my PJ to 3D next year. If the C550 is decent, the 58" may just end up in my living room.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #291 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 05:45 AM
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Man, waiting for my pn58c8000 is killing me. Crutchfield delivered the 6900 3d bluray player already. Hopefully Amazons release date for the 7000 is right and they'll be out the 23rd.

On a side note, if you're looking for a HDMI 1.4 receiver to go with your new sammy 3d set I just found a great deal. I called Abt and asked for the best deal they could give me on an Onkyo TX-SR608. MSPR was 599.99, they advertise 499.99, but they gave it to me shipped for 389.00! The customer service reps name was Carl Prouty.
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post #292 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:04 AM
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So where/what options in the service menu in the C7000 do I enable motion dejudder? I have it switched to a C8000 but not seeing any options anywhere? Or after switching to C8000 it gives you the options on the actual picture options on the tv?
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post #293 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:06 AM
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i just got my samsung pn50c8000 yesterday omg i love it, zero BUZZ. the only thing i dont like is the Motion Judder Canceller. the tv seem to has a lot of blur when its on.
LL
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post #294 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:10 AM
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So when i went into work yesterday, they just put up a C7000 up next to the G20. The C7000 had TERRIBLE blacks. I dont know if its in the setting but the blacks were so grey and washed out. I compared the C7000 to the G20 next to it and WOW. The G20 completley blows it out of the water. Everyone in my department was amazing of how bad the black level was. Guess they worried more about 3D instead of the essentials. I think they are making a huge mistake for this years models
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post #295 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canefan73 View Post

Man, waiting for my pn58c8000 is killing me. Crutchfield delivered the 6900 3d bluray player already. Hopefully Amazons release date for the 7000 is right and they'll be out the 23rd.

On a side note, if you're looking for a HDMI 1.4 receiver to go with your new sammy 3d set I just found a great deal. I called Abt and asked for the best deal they could give me on an Onkyo TX-SR608. MSPR was 599.99, they advertise 499.99, but they gave it to me shipped for 389.00! The customer service reps name was Carl Prouty.

Did he say when it would ship?
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post #296 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by G20Fan View Post

So when i went into work yesterday, they just put up a C7000 up next to the G20. The C7000 had TERRIBLE blacks. I dont know if its in the setting but the blacks were so grey and washed out. I compared the C7000 to the G20 next to it and WOW. The G20 completley blows it out of the water. Everyone in my department was amazing of how bad the black level was. Guess they worried more about 3D instead of the essentials. I think they are making a huge mistake for this years models


the G20 is not 3d. the G20 is around $1,500 - $2,000 i would never spend around $1,500 - $2,000 on a tv if its not 3d.
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post #297 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:35 AM
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LOL ! Not like you would give a biased opinion would you G20Fan ...... LOL



Quote:
Originally Posted by G20Fan View Post

So when i went into work yesterday, they just put up a C7000 up next to the G20. The C7000 had TERRIBLE blacks. I dont know if its in the setting but the blacks were so grey and washed out. I compared the C7000 to the G20 next to it and WOW. The G20 completley blows it out of the water. Everyone in my department was amazing of how bad the black level was. Guess they worried more about 3D instead of the essentials. I think they are making a huge mistake for this years models

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post #298 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:36 AM
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LOL ! Not like you would give a biased opinion would you G20Fan ...... LOL


Of course i love my TV, but its even noticable that last years Samsungs, in my eyes looked better than this years...everyone in my department even said WTF is Samsung doing.
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post #299 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:37 AM
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the G20 is not 3d. the G20 is around $1,500 - $2,000 i would never spend around $1,500 - $2,000 on a tv if its not 3d.


The G20 is 1299...why would you pay 2,000 for a TV thats 1299?
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post #300 of 7937 Old 04-13-2010, 07:40 AM
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Perhaps he's in Canada where Panasonic continues to jack up prices compared to the US. Even though our currency is worth the same.
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