The Official Samsung PNxxC6500, PNxxC7000, and PNxxC8000 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 7966 Old 04-24-2010, 06:23 PM
 
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Keynote, if you want less buzzing, you should try taking it out of that horribly inaccurate dynamic mode, and try movie mode for a while.
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post #812 of 7966 Old 04-24-2010, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keynote View Post

I have my unit in dynamic mode, which is great.

No offense, but if this is true, then you really don't know what a good picture looks like. This is definitely not the mode to have the TV in to give an accurate assessment of its picture quality as this is the mode with the worst "quality" of all of the modes.

If you like this mode, you should check out the Laservue in its brilliant mode. Talk about a crazy picture! The colors are litterally off the charts!
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post #813 of 7966 Old 04-24-2010, 07:00 PM
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OK, looked at the c7000 plasma in 58 and 50 inch sizes today. The glare is just as bad as my un55c8000 and I wasn't blown away by the picture vs my LED. I think I'll stick with my LED. I know the 3d looks great and the PQ is excellent. I'll live with the off angle viewing issue and move on.
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post #814 of 7966 Old 04-24-2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

No offense, but if this is true, then you really don't know what a good picture looks like. This is definitely not the mode to have the TV in to give an accurate assessment of its picture quality as this is the mode with the worst "quality" of all of the modes.

If you like this mode, you should check out the Laservue in its brilliant mode. Talk about a crazy picture! The colors are litterally off the charts!

I understand that dynamic mode is far from the best picture mode, but in my opinion it is better than standard mode. The PQ in standard mode is washed out. I am going to play around with the settings more, but don't forget that it is all based on personal preferences. In addition, changing modes does not help much with the buzzzing. I think that the buzzing won't bother me too much in the future once I get used to it.
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post #815 of 7966 Old 04-24-2010, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildcatJon View Post

OK, looked at the c7000 plasma in 58 and 50 inch sizes today. The glare is just as bad as my un55c8000 and I wasn't blown away by the picture vs my LED. I think I'll stick with my LED. I know the 3d looks great and the PQ is excellent. I'll live with the off angle viewing issue and move on.

No offence I get annoyed when people refer to an LCD TV that is lit by led as an Led TV because it is not an LED TV..

So do we call LCD's lit by Fluoro's ...... "Flouro's" rathan than LCD's?
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post #816 of 7966 Old 04-24-2010, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Pictures can be deceiving. Anyone can take pictures that make the blacks appear to blend in with the bezel. Go see one for yourself in person, folks. Don't judge blacks just from an underexposed picture someone posts.

There is nothing better than seeing it for yourself.
I now take a lot of reviews with a grain of salt.
I do however place some weight on the views and experiences of owners of equipment as they live with the unit and have a better appreciation of the product than many reviewers.
However taking photos to represent black on displays is fraught with inconclusive evidence.
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post #817 of 7966 Old 04-24-2010, 11:18 PM
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One other thing that I am noticing on the PN58C8000 is the dejudder mode is causing strange things to occur on the screen. For example, if a person moves their head quickly on the screen, there is sometimes what looks like pixelation around the head. This occurs frequently.
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post #818 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keynote View Post

One other thing that I am noticing on the PN58C8000 is the dejudder mode is causing strange things to occur on the screen. For example, if a person moves their head quickly on the screen, there is sometimes what looks like pixelation around the head. This occurs frequently.

I've seen that on many sets when in dynamic mode or when out of calibration. Like others have said try another mode and see what happens.
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post #819 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Pictures can be deceiving. Anyone can take pictures that make the blacks appear to blend in with the bezel. Go see one for yourself in person, folks. Don't judge blacks just from an underexposed picture someone posts.

I over exposed one of the shots to show that black levels really are as deep as you see.
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post #820 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mrTAPOUT View Post

I over exposed one of the shots to show that black levels really are as deep as you see.

in high contrast scenes, the blacks appear really deep because the whites deceive the eye. the problem is on dark scenes where blacks look washed out and kinda of gray, at least on my set. (pn50c7000)
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post #821 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 10:50 AM
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None of these models in my local BB, with lots of empty display space for the past 2 weeks.

Availability delays at BB, Amazon, & Crutchfield makes me wonder if there was delivery problem, and most units are still on a ship at sea somewhere.

Haven't looked for a new TV in a while, so no idea if this is common each spring. However, golden opportunity missed this week as B&M stores could have had the new sets playing Avatar.

Oh well, will keep trying to be patient.
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post #822 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

in high contrast scenes, the blacks appear really deep because the whites deceive the eye. the problem is on dark scenes where blacks look washed out and kinda of gray, at least on my set. (pn50c7000)

Could you give us an idea of your setup, including what kind of source material you are viewing and what settings you are using on the PN50C7000?
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post #823 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

in high contrast scenes, the blacks appear really deep because the whites deceive the eye. the problem is on dark scenes where blacks look washed out and kinda of gray, at least on my set. (pn50c7000)

Even though my black bars don't quite blend into the bezel, they don't look grey to me. It is still very dark. It measures at 0.027 ftL, which is about where ChadB measured it, and this is probably about where the G series Panasonics will end up in a few thousand hours. Considering that I got a much more attractive set, super thin, with crazily accurate colors and 3D, for only a little more than one of the Pannys that will end up with black like mine, I think I made the right decision.
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post #824 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mantisboxer View Post

Even though my black bars don't quite blend into the bezel, they don't look grey to me. It is still very dark. It measures at 0.027 ftL, which is about where ChadB measured it, and this is probably about where the G series Panasonics will end up in a few thousand hours. Considering that I got a much more attractive set, super thin, with crazily accurate colors and 3D, for only a little more than one of the Pannys that will end up with black like mine, I think I made the right decision.

Out of curiosity, Panasonic claims that all plasmas increase their minimum voltage to compensate for aging phosphors. The problem with their 2009 series was that the voltage/black level bump occurred in abrupt steps, and far to early in the life of the set.

Does anyone have a well used Samsung plasma from last year that they had initial black level readings from, that they can re-test? I guess my question is, if Panasonic is telling the truth and all plasmas have a black level increase, the 7000 series won't stay at the 0.027 that it started out. It might not be accurate to say that a 7000 series will have the same black levels in a year as a G25.

I have no idea if Panasonic is lying about this, hence why I ask if anyone has a well used plasma from last year with initial measurements that can be retested. Or heck, if we know that last years model had x level generally, we could test anyone's that has been well used and compare its values to those of the average initial values. Who knows, maybe the black levels have actually lowered!
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post #825 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpentara View Post

Out of curiosity, Panasonic claims that all plasmas increase their minimum voltage to compensate for aging phosphors. The problem with their 2009 series was that the voltage/black level bump occurred in abrupt steps, and far to early in the life of the set.

Does anyone have a well used Samsung plasma from last year that they had initial black level readings from, that they can re-test? I guess my question is, if Panasonic is telling the truth and all plasmas have a black level increase, the 7000 series won't stay at the 0.027 that it started out. It might not be accurate to say that a 7000 series will have the same black levels in a year as a G25.

I have no idea if Panasonic is lying about this, hence why I ask if anyone has a well used plasma from last year with initial measurements that can be retested. Or heck, if we know that last years model had x level generally, we could test anyone's that has been well used and compare its values to those of the average initial values. Who knows, maybe the black levels have actually lowered!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20001640-1.html

CNET will be monitoring this and the evidence is anecdotal so far, but I have yet to hear of a report of diminishing black levels on other brands of TVs. The Kuros have been out there for a long time and if this was an issue you can bet that the community of Pioneer owners will have been screaming. Maybe people have been too worried about Sammy's buzzing to notice a change in black level?

While it may be true that the pixels will take more voltage over time to respond, I think that Samsung and others just start there address voltage levels higher to begin with. This results in a higher initial black level, but less (or no) change over time.

Like I said, I would love to have lower black levels, but I am looking at the whole package. Black is important, but I think it is a bit overemphasized. Most people cannot actually see the difference between 1000:1 and 3000:1 contrast ratio (which is about the difference between the c7000 and the G20). I submit that the only reason anyone cares that much is that we can measure it and report on it.

I love the picture quality of this set in bright and low light environments. I didn't pay Kuro or VT25 money for my TV (not even close). If I did, I would be disappointed. When I look at what I got for my money, which is respectable black levels, excellent color fidelity and shadow detail, tweak factor, 3D, sexy package, etc. I think I came out ahead.
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post #826 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpentara View Post

Out of curiosity, Panasonic claims that all plasmas increase their minimum voltage to compensate for aging phosphors. The problem with their 2009 series was that the voltage/black level bump occurred in abrupt steps, and far to early in the life of the set.

Does anyone have a well used Samsung plasma from last year that they had initial black level readings from, that they can re-test? I guess my question is, if Panasonic is telling the truth and all plasmas have a black level increase, the 7000 series won't stay at the 0.027 that it started out. It might not be accurate to say that a 7000 series will have the same black levels in a year as a G25.

I have no idea if Panasonic is lying about this, hence why I ask if anyone has a well used plasma from last year with initial measurements that can be retested. Or heck, if we know that last years model had x level generally, we could test anyone's that has been well used and compare its values to those of the average initial values. Who knows, maybe the black levels have actually lowered!

I think the answer is this: if you change the voltages by the correct amount then you will exactly compensate for the phosphor aging without increasing the black levels. If you overshoot on the correction, then the black levels will rise. Apparently all the other plasma makers have been able to get it right.
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post #827 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisboxer View Post


I love the picture quality of this set in bright and low light environments. I didn't pay Kuro or VT25 money for my TV (not even close). If I did, I would be disappointed. When I look at what I got for my money, which is respectable black levels, excellent color fidelity and shadow detail, tweak factor, 3D, sexy package, etc. I think I came out ahead.

I completely understand you, and I am very happy that you are pleased with your set. The last time we were in a Magnolia, my wife said she thought she liked the Samsung the best (I think it was a 50b590, might have been a 650).

Its an interesting question that I hope someone can provide more data on. I also can't wait for the measurements of the 6500 and 8000 series.

What can I say, I was an engineer and I like objective numbers.
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post #828 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 12:57 PM
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I've been monitoring this thread for a while and I think I narrowed my option to a c7000 or c8000. Before I purchase one I'd like to see the two sets in person. I live in California (OC) and would like to know who carries these new sets and has them on display?
(My local BB has the c7000 but they tell me that the 3D demo is not permitted at the time being, and they don't have the c8000 on display yet...lame)
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post #829 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Dean View Post

Could you give us an idea of your setup, including what kind of source material you are viewing and what settings you are using on the PN50C7000?

I was watching the man who stare at at goats on my ps3. movie mode contrast 87 brightness 50 . my set is semi calibrated but I was specifically told not to share the detailed settings. sorry I don't wanna piss anybody off lol
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post #830 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

I was watching the man who stare at at goats on my ps3. movie mode contrast 87 brightness 50 . my set is semi calibrated but I was specifically told not to share the detailed settings. sorry I don't wanna piss anybody off lol

semi calibrated?
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post #831 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

I was watching the man who stare at at goats on my ps3. movie mode contrast 87 brightness 50 . my set is semi calibrated but I was specifically told not to share the detailed settings. sorry I don't wanna piss anybody off lol

Your contrast is WAY too high. Should be more like 80. At that level you're going to get full screen IR and your black levels will suffer considerably. I think we have enough owners for a settings thread now... are there any interested folks?
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post #832 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 02:53 PM
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Aim probably got the settings of a buddy of his who had his professionally calibrated by a forum member. "Semi-calibrated" probably refers to the fact that not all sets are identical and that his viewing conditions (lighting, etc) are different than the unit he got the settings from.

Given the variety of impressions with the c7000 plasmas I am as apprehensive with these units as I would be with Panasonic floating black levels.

If I don't like 3D a whole lot, I will likely go for a Panasonic G25 or a Samsung 63B550 below the $2000 mark.
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post #833 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

I was watching the man who stare at at goats on my ps3. movie mode contrast 87 brightness 50 . my set is semi calibrated but I was specifically told not to share the detailed settings. sorry I don't wanna piss anybody off lol

What exactly is "semi" calibrated? It either is or it isn't. Sharing settings isn't worth anything anyway since every TV is different and requires its own unique adjustments.
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post #834 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by christberg View Post

Your contrast is WAY too high. Should be more like 80. At that level you're going to get full screen IR and your black levels will suffer considerably. I think we have enough owners for a settings thread now... are there any interested folks?

That's not necessarily true. It depends on what gamma is set at and if there aren't any long term stationary objects on the screen you won't get IR even at 100 contrast.

Also, contrast settings do not directly affect black level. Black level is black level. You can make things appear blacker by crushing blacks with brightness set too low or make it look washed out with it set too high, but perceived black level is created via a combination of contrast, brightness, gamma, and grayscale. Contrast, however, by itself will not affect the black level of the TV. Contrast affects whites, brightness affects blacks.
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post #835 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ystasino View Post

Aim probably got the settings of a buddy of his who had his professionally calibrated by a forum member. "Semi-calibrated" probably refers to the fact that not all sets are identical and that his viewing conditions (lighting, etc) are different than the unit he got the settings from.

haha couldnt have said it any better, I am using the same settings as a calibrated pn50c7000.

By the way, somebody calling me aim is kinda weird lol, you guys can call me andres
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post #836 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

That's not necessarily true. It depends on what gamma is set at and if there aren't any long term stationary objects on the screen you won't get IR even at 100 contrast.

Also, contrast settings do not directly affect black level. Black level is black level. You can make things appear blacker by crushing blacks with brightness set too low or make it look washed out with it set too high, but perceived black level is created via a combination of contrast, brightness, gamma, and grayscale. Contrast, however, by itself will not affect the black level of the TV. Contrast affects whites, brightness affects blacks.

Thats why i said during high contrast scenes, the blacks appear really deep, they basically blend with the bezel, but during dark scenes black dont appear as deep.

Thanks for that great explanation.
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post #837 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

That's not necessarily true. It depends on what gamma is set at and if there aren't any long term stationary objects on the screen you won't get IR even at 100 contrast.

Also, contrast settings do not directly affect black level. Black level is black level. You can make things appear blacker by crushing blacks with brightness set too low or make it look washed out with it set too high, but perceived black level is created via a combination of contrast, brightness, gamma, and grayscale. Contrast, however, by itself will not affect the black level of the TV. Contrast affects whites, brightness affects blacks.

Trust me on this one. If you have the contrast set around 90 or higher and you leave something with black bars you can see it the brightness go up on that part of the image 4:3 or otherwise. Even if the image isn't static my unit does this, although it's gotten a heck of a lot better about it. All you have to do is stop it on a blank screen; it's really obvious. Kind of a funny limitation with the TV, really. It's easy to get around though- just dump the contrast down a bit.
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post #838 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by christberg View Post

Trust me on this one. If you have the contrast set around 90 or higher and you leave something with black bars you can see it the brightness go up on that part of the image 4:3 or otherwise. Even if the image isn't static my unit does this, although it's gotten a heck of a lot better about it. All you have to do is stop it on a blank screen; it's really obvious. Kind of a funny limitation with the TV, really. It's easy to get around though- just dump the contrast down a bit.

whats do you have for your contrast?
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post #839 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by aim1126 View Post

whats do you have for your contrast?

80, Cell 14, Brightness 50, Color 46, space native. I was also running with the dynamic contrast on "high" but since the IR has subsided quite a bit I've turned that off (crushes blacks)
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post #840 of 7966 Old 04-25-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by masker7 View Post

Well I went back to BestBuy where they had the Kuros. They also have the PN50C7000...I looked at it and wasn't overly impressed. Then I went back to look at the 6020fd. I talked to the guy and he lowered the price even more and decided to go with the Pioneer. I got it for $2400 with free shipping (i apologize if I should not put in the price). I'm very excited to get it shipped here.

3D will have to wait a few years, but I can live with that.

where do you live?
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