The Official Samsung PNxxC6500, PNxxC7000, and PNxxC8000 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 08:28 AM
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Get a bigger living room.
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post #92 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 09:06 AM
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While I can see a firmware update on the C7000 Plasma on Samsung's site; nowhere do I see any explanation of what the update is for. Are you speculating that is was for "improved 3D" or do you have some other confirmation?

Nothing showing for the C8000 Plasma model yet.

You really need to watch 3-D content to judge these sets 3-D capability; watching the conversion is not at all the same thing. I saw some of the Masters coverage demoed on the C8000 last night; ghosting was minimal. Watching the short on the MVA disc, I noticed little ghosting but there is more in the actual feature. The encoding on the feature may be the bigger issue here, and not the set.
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post #93 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post

While I can see a firmware update on the C7000 Plasma on Samsung's site; nowhere do I see any explanation of what the update is for. Are you speculating that is was for "improved 3D" or do you have some other confirmation?

Nothing showing for the C8000 Plasma model yet.

You really need to watch 3-D content to judge these sets 3-D capability; watching the conversion is not at all the same thing. I saw some of the Masters coverage demoed on the C8000 last night; ghosting was minimal. Watching the short on the MVA disc, I noticed little ghosting but there is more in the actual feature. The encoding on the feature may be the bigger issue here, and not the set.

1. Title
Firmware ver. 1014.0
2. Applicable Model
PDP C7000
3. Carrier or Corporate Customer
All Customer
4. Description
Enhanced picture quality of 3D
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post #94 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 10:37 AM
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Thanks, that's good to know. Hopefully it makes a difference!
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post #95 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 10:50 AM
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Did I miss the review by Chad? I don't see it in the thread or on his signature.

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post #96 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirbrillo View Post

Did I miss the review by Chad? I don't see it in the thread or on his signature.

Nope, and we're all anxiously waiting

He had all three brands side by side (PK740, G20, C7000), so should be a good comparison!
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post #97 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 12:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arfster View Post

Quite a turnaround from last year - LG had worst blacks then, now they seem to have the best at around 0.013ftl

Last years Samsungs were measured at .0145.

I guess we'll have to wait for Chad's review for the definitive answer.
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post #98 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirbrillo View Post

Did I miss the review by Chad? I don't see it in the thread or on his signature.

Chad is surely reading this thread and he's laughing a lots....
In my mind, Chad is waiting like on the tv quiz where the showman wait and wait before to give the answer.
Suspance............
Chaaaaadddddd, help ussssssss
My wife doesn't put up with me in these conditions.......and the guilt are yours !
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post #99 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 01:20 PM
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Or he likes this TV sooo much he can't stop watching it long enough to do the review.
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post #100 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 01:53 PM
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Hehehe... I just got the LG 750 review done; it took several hours to write. I'm starting the C7000 now.
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post #101 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Hehehe... I just got the LG 750 review done; it took several hours to write. I'm starting the C7000 now.

I've already read the lg 750 review
But we already had one lg review (pk550): We absolutely want a pn50c7000 review.
Please fast, super fast, super super faaaaaaaaast............ : done ?
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post #102 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Hehehe... I just got the LG 750 review done; it took several hours to write. I'm starting the C7000 now.

I just wanted to say thanks for all your time & effort you put into this for us. Keep up the great work!
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post #103 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 02:48 PM
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Good night nurse lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The Samsung PN50C7000 was .0330 if I am not mistaken. There is more to a display than black level. We had the TC-P42G25, 60PK750, and PN50C7000 all in a row with screens on in a dark room and yes there was a difference but not anything night and day.

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post #104 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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You can laugh if you like. The Samsung is a sweet set. Less than 1" thick, very light, excellent picture quality, and 3D. I think I see a PN63C7000 in the future over here ( Well maybe a TC-P65V25 )
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post #105 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

You can laugh if you like. The Samsung is a sweet set. Less than 1" thick, very light, excellent picture quality, and 3D. I think I see a PN63C7000 in the future over here ( Well maybe a TC-P65V25 )

Isn't .033 a really bad black level though?? People in the Panny forums are having nervous breakdowns over .020...lol. Out of curiosity do you recall what the 600u/60u series black levels were? I have a 60u and while the blacks are better than on many sets, I certainly want better performance on my next set.
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post #106 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 03:29 PM
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.0330 seems extremely high, specially since older Samsung plasmas werent this high at all
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post #107 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

Isn't .033 a really bad black level though?? People in the Panny forums are having nervous breakdowns over .020...lol. Out of curiosity do you recall what the 600u/60u series black levels were? I have a 60u and while the blacks are better than on many sets, I certainly want better performance on my next set.

The TC-P42G25 was at 0.0083 and right next to the samsung PN50C7000. Yes the panny was darker, but not night and day difference. Most people would not even notice.
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post #108 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The TC-P42G25 was at .016 and right next to the samsung PN50C7000. Yes the panny was darker, but not night and day difference. Most people would not even notice.

im coming from a vizio lcd that was rated to have extremely low black levels, and a mitsubishi dlp that was reviewed the same, so anything for me will be an improvement lol
I did see a pioneer kuro elite though the other day at best buy and i must say i was thinking about it but it was way out of my budget, heck even the c7000 was out of my budget but i couldnt pass uo the price at cleveland plasma
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post #109 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The TC-P42G25 was at .016 and right next to the samsung PN50C7000. Yes the panny was darker, but not night and day difference. Most people would not even notice.

Except the people in the Panny black level rising forum on here.
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post #110 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 04:24 PM
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Earlier this week, I met with Chris from Cleveland Plasma to take an in depth look at the new Samsung PN50C7000 3D capable plasma and compare its performance to a couple of other sets I had calibrated. The C7000 is a perfect example of the new breed of sleek and slim plasmas, and its profile looks fantastic from any angle. It seems to pick up an average amount of glare compared to other plasmas, with the reflections perhaps a bit more diffuse than on the LG plasmas.

Though I did not have an opportunity to see the C7000s 3D processing, I wanted to see just how good its core performance was. Unlike Samsungs UN46C7000 LED LCD that I reviewed recently, the picture mode is selectable even while in 3D mode, so you can enjoy a more accurate picture in 3D.

I took measurements of different picture modes before making any changes. Standard mode (not shown) was not very watchable in my opinion, with a very blue/purplish cast to the white balance, poor gamma that will give brightly lit faces a clayface or caked on makeup look, and a low light output of only 19.4 fL. Samsung added a new mode called Relax, and its performance is shown in attachment 1. Relaxs measurements suggest a more watchable picture than standard mode, though the white balance is still somewhat purplish and the colors are pushed. Movie mode (attachment 2) shows pretty good performance overall, though the color gamut is a bit narrow and the green color luminance is pushed. Overall, movie mode appeared to be a great starting point for calibration.

The C7000s secret service menu was sparse, with little of interest to calibrators that I could find. Thankfully, in movie mode a fantastic selection of advanced calibration adjustments is available. Samsung added a properly functioning 10 point white balance/gamma adjustment, which can be used with the proper test equipment to fine tune the performance. The C7000 also includes a complete, properly functioning CMS (Color Management System) adjustment, gamma presets, and a 2 point white balance control that can be used in conjunction with the 10 point adjustment. The shadow detail adjustment I saw on the UN46C7000 was missing. Fortunately, its shadow detail was good enough already that I felt no need for the missing adjustment. There is also a skin tone adjustment that makes on the fly adjustments to make skin tones more or less red.

The C7000, like many other Samsung sets, has a switchable black level when fed an HDMI RGB colorspace signal. However, it has color decoding discrepancies with RGB colorspace that are not there with the more common YCbCr. That means some video games and DVI sources may not have as accurate color as Blu Rays and other HDMI video sources.

1080i and 1080P resolution in dot by dot mode was perfect and strong. Black level, measured with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV at the time of calibration, measured .033 fL. Later, after a full cool down period, the black level measured around .026 fL (see link below). Black had a very slightly greenish cast. The modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 958:1. The C7000 could be calibrated to be nice and bright; I calibrated peak white to match 2 other plasmas nearby to facilitate a three way comparison at around 45-47 fL, though it could have easily gone higher.

The after calibration measurements are shown in attachment 3. The 10 point adjustment worked great to make the white balance and gamma nearly perfect. Likewise, with the help of the CMS adjustment, colors matched the HDTV standards to a degree that is rarely, if ever, seen in other sets.

Te first thing that jumped out at me as I put some familiar 1080P/24 Blu Ray material on was the vibrant color. Initially, it overshadowed everything else; those carrots in the DVE restaurant scene jumped right out at me, and a few seconds later when the flesh tones came into the scene they looked extremely rich but a little too ruddy.

Shadow detail looked good; compared to some other sets the shadow detail may appear a bit hard to see, but in my opinion it was balanced perfectly. Shadow detail was noticeably better than on Samsungs previous models before they implemented the 10 point adjustment. Resolution, detail, smoothness, and stability were all great; there was no annoying graininess or pumping in the picture. However, black level was noticeably not inky black. From the material I looked at, it appeared that 1080P/24 was displayed at 60 Hz rather than a multiple of 24, though on most scenes it was hard to tell. While the image was without question very impressive, I decided I should recheck my CMS calibration to see if I could find an explanation for the explosive colors.

Using the sets color isolation controls, I discovered that the C7000s color decoding changed a bit with picture level. I redid the CMS, starting with a lower overall color setting, and found that eliminated the issue. I rechecked the demo material, and things looked very similar; though I felt the flesh tones were a little better controlled this time around. I felt that the flesh tones at this point, though still overly ruddy, were reasonable enough that I did not want to sacrifice accuracy or overall color to try to make them more to my liking. The skin tone adjustment, which I left at the neutral position, can be used to lessen the sunburnt look while minimizing the compromise to other colors.

I feel that Samsung may be doing a bit of behind the scenes color processing that will make the C7000 stand out relative to the competition. While I feel it is a bit overdone, I could understand many people preferring its vibrant colors over a more accurate but comparatively bland picture. In fact, I think its just the look that will draw people to it. Fortunately, theres enough color adjustments that if you feel it is a bit overdone, as I did, it is possible to bring them more in line with your taste.

Since I had two other recently released plasmas nearby that I had just calibrated, I couldnt resist doing a comparison between the C7000, the LG PK750, and the Panasonic G25. While screen size varied, I did calibrate all of them to a similar light output. This particular LG PK750 was not the sample I originally reviewed; it was the one on which I was able to successfully adjust its 20 point white balance/gamma adjustment. That will not be possible most of the time unless LG makes a correction in its adjustments, and it gave this particular PK750 an advantage. Please see my review of the PK750 for the complete explanation.

With a 0% black signal, the G25 had the darkest, inkiest blacks in a dark room. The PK750s blacks were neutral toned but quite a bit lighter than the G25. It is possible, however, that as the G25 ages its black level would be more similar to the LG and Samsung because of its allegedly rising black level. The C7000s blacks looked very close to the PK750s, though a bit more greenish. With the lights on, the G25 suppressed reflections better than the PK750 or the C7000. Looking at the demo material on the DVE Essentials Blu Ray, I saw excellent skin tones on both the G25 and PK750, while complexions looked a bit too red on the C7000. There was a textured look on the PK750 that was only barely noticeable and was probably a byproduct of some edge enhancement. All three sets seemed to handle pans and motion about the same; there was a slight jerkiness that seemed to suggest none of the sets were displaying the 1080P/24 signal at a multiple of 24. The G25 and PK750 had good depth and pop, while the C7000 had richer, more vibrant color. The G25 had neutral toned but slightly overemphasized shadow detail. The PK750s shadow detail was a bit less neutral with a slightly greenish tone, but also appeared a bit overemphasized. The C7000s shadow detail was probably the most neutral when both color tone and visibility were taken into account. The G25s image seemed just a tiny bit crisper.

Overall, I think the C7000 is a very good set with textbook measurements. It's color may be too vibrant for some while the cat's meow for others; and it's black level is not as dark as I would prefer, but in every other way it is a stand out set.

UPDATE: Please see this post for a possible explanation for the higher than expected black level measurements.

new black level measurement

Follow up 10/10/2010:

I just calibrated a PN63C7000 that was updated with the latest firmware, and the results were astonishing in comparison to my original review sample! Before I got there, the owner had done the service menu tweak that unlocked the cinema smooth feature, and the only bad news is related to that: whenever I fed the TV a 1080P/24 signal, whether from my generator set to output YCbCr or the customer's Sony Blu Ray player, there were significant color errors. It seemed similar to the errors that occur in some Sammys, including this one, when they are fed an HDMI signal with RGB color space; except this was present even with YCbCr, which is normally what a Blu Ray player is going to output. In addition, these color errors were present whether Cinema Smooth was activated or not; turning it off made no difference, and the errors were significant enough that trying co compensate for them caused other color problems. 1080P/24 was the only resolution with the errors; 1080P/60 and 1080i YCbCr were fine.
However, there are two

very significant improvements compared to the review sample, and they may have been due to the latest firmware or the larger panel size, or both. First, the hot color was fixed! After calibrating the CMS, my program material looked wonderful, with no sunburnt faces or overblown color that would have had me rushing to turn down the color on the review set. In fact, I would say the color of the C7000 is now back up to the incredible standard set by the B860. This was not a subtle improvement; it was like night and day to me.
Also, the black level and contrast measurements were very significantly improved. Using the same Milori Trichromat meter as always with plasmas and covering the screen with a black blanket to block any ambient light, black level read between .006 and .007 fL, and checkerboard contrast measured around 3050:1. Keep in mind this black level reading is below the rated luminance range of the meter, but I feel confident that the reading is in the ballpark of what the 63C7000 was actually doing.
With Cinema Smooth engaged, black level read .018 fL, and this was not because of an incorrect brightness adjustment.
After calibration, I relished in the set's natural colors and great impact. The room was not totally dark, so some of the contrast improvement was not visible; but enough of it was so that I was able to see the contrast and pop were indeed improved.

 

Sam PN50C7000 bef relax.pdf 179.7900390625k . file

 

Sam PN50C7000 bef movie.pdf 174.7294921875k . file

 

Sam PN50C7000 aft movie.pdf 169.7529296875k . file
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post #111 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 04:41 PM
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Thanks Chad!!
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post #112 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 04:50 PM
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Now i feel like i made a mistake on getting the Sammy over the Panny
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post #113 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 04:57 PM
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Black levels

S2 - 0.009 fL
G25 - 0.0083 fL
PK550 - 0.0132 fL
PK750 - 0.026 fL
C7000 - 0.033 fL

If the G25 triples, then it will be roughly 0.025 fL
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post #114 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthead View Post

Now i feel like i made a mistake on getting the Sammy over the Panny

I think you are over thinking. These are all great sets guys. Just wait a month or two and people on AVS will find every flaw on these sets and it will become a toss up. These are all mid-line plasma's and they are all excellent sets, Panasonic TC-PxxG25, Samsung PNxxC7000, and LG xxPK750. ( Keep in mind the Samsung is the only 3D TV. Samsung looks to have the only affordable 3D TVS, as all the other manufacturers have used 3D in there flagship models only that are way up their in price. )
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post #115 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiestilgar View Post

Black levels

S2 - 0.009 fL
G25 - 0.0083 fL
PK550 - 00132 fL
PK750 - 0.026 fL
C7000 - 0.033 fL

If the G25 triples, then it will be roughly 0.025 fL

Does that mean the C7000 has grey blacks?
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post #116 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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post #117 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 05:09 PM
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now that i think about it, there might be a reason for the high blacks, when viewing a tv with the 3d glasses the picture gets a lot darker thanks to the glasses so samsung might have made the black brighter on purpose.
just my .02
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post #118 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The blacks where in no way shape or form grey.

@Cleveland Plasma......Just wondering, How do you think the C8000 series will measure. I know it has added features and all that fluff, but on a pure image sense, do you think it will be same as C7000 or better. and im not just talking about black levels, im talking about overall picture.

I have a C8000 on order, and i still plan on getting it. People i think take WAY too much importance on just black levels alone. If it looks good to me, thats all i care about. I just feel people take certain specs way to important over others.

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post #119 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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post #120 of 7936 Old 04-08-2010, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^ If the added features are not needed, save your cash. I bet there will be no picture value added. Why wait for a C8000 when a C7000 can be bought now?

Biggest reason i am actually getting the C8000 is for the true 24p playback. From what i have been reading, c7000 does not come with cinema smooth, but the c8000 does. Also i guess the C8000 comes with a "true black filter" is what samsung calls it. i dont really care about the filter, but will be interesting to see if it even does anything for black levels over the c7000 or just another marketing gimmick

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