The Official Samsung PNxxC6500, PNxxC7000, and PNxxC8000 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 09:36 AM
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Yesterday I got to try on Sammy's new rechargable 3D glasses for adults, the ones with the red tint at the bottom.

Have to say they were very uncomfortable and felt heavy. They can easily slip off as they do not curve in round your head, they are plain straight.
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post #182 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neceo View Post

chad why did you have to do this to me

We have said a few times now this is a great set. A meter says one thing but in the end the performance to the eye is key. Great set here guy, go see one for yourself.

Lets say we have a car with 1000 HP at the motor but at the tires it only has 600HP. Thats bad, the HP at the motor, was tested with a dyno machine proved to be great, however there is to much loss thru the drive train. Same thing here in a way. The sets readings where just OK, however to the eye the set was excellent.
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post #183 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 09:40 AM
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The black level is not so great, yet the shadow detail is (subjectively) pretty good. I think people need to go and see the TV for themselves before passing final judgment.
I would really like to see the C550, C6500 and C8000 reviewed or at least some impressions for comparison's sake.
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post #184 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

We have said a few times now this is a great set. A meter says one thing but in the end the performance to the eye is key. Great set here guy, go see one for yourself.

Lets say we have a car with 1000 HP at the motor but at the tires it only has 600HP. Thats bad, the HP at the motor, was tested with a dyno machine proved to be great, however there is to much loss thru the drive train. Same thing here in a way. The sets readings where just OK, however to the eye the set was excellent.

I was joking around, thought the little would give it away .
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post #185 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 09:49 AM
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Perhaps you should also test against the typical cable/satellite HDTV signal. Most of us will be watching far more cable/satellite than Blu Ray.

DelJ



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

No, I only looked at Blu Ray program material. I may start checking 480i composite video, though.

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post #186 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 09:53 AM
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If only the Panny's had the 2D-to-3D conversion... Sigh
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post #187 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 10:03 AM
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Chad:
What can you tell us about buzzing? As much as anything, that appears to be a problem area, especially since I'm going to put my 50" 8000 in a 12 x 11 room with viewing distance of 8-9'.

Oppo BDP-83 2nd EAP
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post #188 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by korzry View Post

This is the one complain I have with the c8000. I head a buzzing sound from 8+ feet away. I can hear it during normal viewing unless their is some constant noise in the program. Its audible during moments of calm and talking.

This is annoying to me, but I may be overly sensitive to it. My wife can hear it but it doesn't bother her. This the exact same sound as the Panasonic VT20 I listened to at Best Buy the other day, but on that one I could only hear it if I put my head behind the set.

I posted a video of it on another thread. One person commented they could hear it, several others said they couldn't.

I heard the buzzing on the mkv video. I dont know how anyone could not hear the buzzing in your video. If they didnt hear it they probably didnt turn up their speakers loud enough or were watching the youtube version of your video. You can really hear the buzzing in your video when you turn on the 3d.

I personally would return my set if it buzzed like yours does. And if you cant exchange it for another Samsung that doesnt buzz I would exchange it for a Panny or an LG. However each of those manufactures seem to have their own issues as well.

Panny = Floating Blacks and Black Level Rising
LG = Image Retention, Very Reflective Screen
Samsung = Buzzing

Just my thoughts.
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post #189 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terminaldawn View Post

I heard the buzzing on the mkv video. I dont know how anyone could not hear the buzzing in your video. If they didnt hear it they probably didnt turn up their speakers loud enough or were watching the youtube version of your video. You can really hear the buzzing in your video when you turn on the 3d.

I personally would return my set if it buzzed like yours does. And if you cant exchange it for another Samsung that doesnt buzz I would exchange it for a Panny or an LG. However each of those manufactures seem to have their own issues as well.

Panny = Floating Blacks and Black Level Rising
LG = Image Retention, Very Reflective Screen
Samsung = Buzzing

Just my thoughts.

I was the first one to state I heard the buzzing. Yes you need to watch the mvk file and turn the speakers up. You really hear it when he turns on the 3d , you hear the tone change. Before that though some might think it is just speaker noise.
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post #190 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 10:22 AM
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Chad and Chris... based on your observations of the C7000, and your experience with last year's B550/B650/B860, is there any PQ reason one would choose the C7000? I have no interest in the 3D, and was actually considering the C6500 until this review. Given last year's level of performance on color accuracy (excellent), black level (markedly better than the C7000) and modified ansi contrast (550 slightly better), I find it hard to justify (compared to remaining '09 stock) the new panels from a 2D PQ perspective (buzzing issues aside!).

On another note, consistency of a measurement device does not necessarily mean it is accurate. It is conceivable that your meter could consistently/repeatedly measure .008ftL as .015ftL... making it very precise, but inaccurate. Unlikely in that any manufacturer aware of precise but inaccurate measurement would likely calibrate the device to 'adjust' the readings to eliminate the bias. just saying

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #191 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 10:26 AM
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I do hear the buzz with the speakers turned up pretty loud, but unfortunately this is not and accurate representation of the sound level in the room. The voices from the Discovery Channel content drowned out any buzzing that I could hear and was very loud in my speakers at the volume I needed to hear any buzzing. This is probably an artifact of the mic on the camera, which is probably designed to pick up sounds best in the range of the human voice. Depending on the pitch, it just might not pick up buzzing very well.
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post #192 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 10:54 AM
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Black levels that were measured by ChadB are dissapointing to me and dont meet my expectations for a 2010 television. Its proving to be very difficult to pick out a television to replace my dying Sony KDS-60a2000. I dont think I am asking for too much. Can I get a telivision with a good AR Filter, Decent Black Levels, No Motion Blur, that is 60 in or bigger? I am almost ready to throw in the towel. Is there anything out there that meets these requirements besides paying a rediculous price on the KURO?
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post #193 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terminaldawn View Post

Can I get a telivision with a good AR Filter, Decent Black Levels, No Motion Blur, that is 60 in or bigger? I am almost ready to throw in the towel. Is there anything out there that meets these requirements besides paying a rediculous price on the KURO?

The 65VT20 or VT25 meets these requirements, i suppose. It may have even slightly lower black level than 0.004 ftL measured by Hd guru on the 50 inches model.
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post #194 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnbba View Post

The 65VT20 or VT25 meets these requirements, i suppose. It may have even slightly lower black level than 0.004 ftL measured by Hd guru on the 50 inches model.

+1

Unless the Samsung 8000 plasma can prove otherwise, the VT Panasonic is far and away the best plasma this year.
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post #195 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Yes, it was dark. I am not sure about break in time; it was playing the break in DVD when I got there earlier that day, but I am not there every day.

Here's a question for you Chad: had the C7000 been running in a high-contrast setting — perhaps even dynamic or standard picture mode — when you arrived? Myself and others have discovered that if we run our B650 Samsung plasmas at a very high contrast, even in movie mode, black levels suffer considerably. But if we dial contrast back to high 70's or low 80's, after the phosphors have 4-6 hours to "cool down" our black levels appear nearly twice as good as they would be otherwise. I imagine this would be even more prevalent with the ultra-thin models, if it's a heat issue. Note that the improvement in black levels is not something you'll see instantly when changing the contrast; it takes literally hours before blacks improve.

It would be very interesting to see what kind of black level reading you get if you leave the television on 0 IRE for an hour or more, assuming the set doesn't cut the signal entirely when it detects an all-black image.

Click here for my home theater setup
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post #196 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthead View Post

Does that mean the C7000 has grey blacks?

No it doesn't, something is wrong here. My 7000 when watching letterboxed movies, the bars are almost as black as the tv frame. I would assume the brightness was turned up to high. Brightness actually controls black levels.
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post #197 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

No it doesn't, something is wrong here. My 7000 when watching letterboxed movies, the bars are almost as black as the tv frame.

do you see this when watching the tv during the day or in a dark room?
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post #198 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 11:57 AM
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Dark room at night. The other thing I have noticed is the set maintains black very well even as brightness is increased. I've seen the Panasonic, it achieves black levels at the cost of crushing blacks.
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post #199 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:01 PM
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The review didn't include 2D to 3D conversion. Oh wait, that's because the other sets don't do it. If you want to watch 3D then this is the set to get. There is no comparison between watching 2D on the other sets, (or this one) and watching 3D on this one.

Let's mention white levels also, this set does not crush whites even at high brightness. I noticed white crush on the Pasasonic also. There are way more things to PQ than inky blacks. I put that well down on my list. Shadow detail is far more important.

If you haven't guessed, I'm very happy with this set, but the only reason I have it is the ability to watch everything in 3D.
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post #200 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

No it doesn't, something is wrong here. My 7000 when watching letterboxed movies, the bars are almost as black as the tv frame.

If this is true with dark scenes in a dark room then the black level can't possibly be .033 ftL. That kind of black level would be like having your HDMI black level incorrectly set to normal instead of low.

Click here for my home theater setup
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post #201 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

The review didn't include 2D to 3D conversion. Oh wait, that's because the other sets don't do it. If you want to watch 3D then this is the set to get. There is no comparison between watching 2D on the other sets, (or this one) and watching 3D on this one.

How about the VT25?
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post #202 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:23 PM
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Conversion? I don't think it does.
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post #203 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

If this is true with dark scenes in a dark room then the black level can't possibly be .033 ftL. That kind of black level would be like having your HDMI black level incorrectly set to normal instead of low.

yeah, something is not adding up here
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post #204 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Conversion? I don't think it does.

oh the conversion. nevermind.

did you get yours calibrated?
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post #205 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:27 PM
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I'll be interested to see any input lag measurements for these sets. Last year Panasonic beat Samsung handily in that area. Get to work, owners!

(Yes, I realize input lag is not a factor to a picture calibrator and a non-gamer shopkeep )
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post #206 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

The review didn't include 2D to 3D conversion. Oh wait, that's because the other sets don't do it. If you want to watch 3D then this is the set to get. There is no comparison between watching 2D on the other sets, (or this one) and watching 3D on this one.

Let's mention white levels also, this set does not crush whites even at high brightness. I noticed white crush on the Pasasonic also. There are way more things to PQ than inky blacks. I put that well down on my list. Shadow detail is far more important.

If you haven't guessed, I'm very happy with this set, but the only reason I have it is the ability to watch everything in 3D.

Maybe a dumb question, but the converted stuff needs the glasses too right?
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post #207 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:34 PM
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Yes. Watched "Fifth Element" in 3D- WOW.
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post #208 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

The review didn't include 2D to 3D conversion. Oh wait, that's because the other sets don't do it. If you want to watch 3D then this is the set to get. There is no comparison between watching 2D on the other sets, (or this one) and watching 3D on this one.

Let's mention white levels also, this set does not crush whites even at high brightness. I noticed white crush on the Pasasonic also. There are way more things to PQ than inky blacks. I put that well down on my list. Shadow detail is far more important.

If you haven't guessed, I'm very happy with this set, but the only reason I have it is the ability to watch everything in 3D.

Thanks for that bit of positive feedback Bill. It's good to hear from some one who has actually been viewing this set under real world conditions for a while.

I'll admit, I had hoped for better test measurements of the black level than what Chad reported (by the way, thanks for that excellent review Chad!!! ), but seems to me we are missing the forest for the trees here.

The pleasure that one derives from viewing a TV is the collective result of many different variables, with the black level being only one of those elements.

Each set has it's strengths and weaknesses, and we are fortunate to have so many choices, picking those items that are important to us in making our decision.

I'm also the member of a camera forum, and when a new model gets released it gets analyzed to death, just like these TVs. That's a good thing, but I've found that some folks get so caught up in the test results that they forget that what's often most important is how the camera feels in their hands out in the real world, and how that great feeling allows them to take great photographs.

Same things here, while test results are an important tool to help us compare relative strengths and weaknesses of various sets, they are by no means the final word on how pleasurable the viewing experience will be, because that depends on so many other things.

We are indeed fortunate to have some one like Chad who is willing to use his expertise to provide us with these kinds of comparisons, but it's also important to keep things in perspective.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #209 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 01:32 PM
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Good to hear. Should be receiving mine from crutchfield in a couple days. Can't wait
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post #210 of 7936 Old 04-09-2010, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnbba View Post

The 65VT20 or VT25 meets these requirements, i suppose. It may have even slightly lower black level than 0.004 ftL measured by Hd guru on the 50 inches model.

The initial black level is impressive; however it will rise per Panasonic's own admission. In addition the floating black issue has me very concerned. This is something that would bother me. The Samsung buzz that everyone talks about does not affect the video quality, so was really hoping for more with these sets. I am really hoping that the C8000 will fare better in black level, color, and AR filter. If not then Samsung IMHO doesn't even have an advantage over LG this year.
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