2011 Panasonic Plasma [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post
Actually, 73.4% of all statistics are made up.
True.....well at least 98% of the time.
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post #452 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post
actually, 73.4% of all statistics are made up.
90%
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post #453 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyTV

false info....

its more like 10%
You can't back that up just like I can't back my 0.01%. My opinion is derived from the fact that outside of some people in these forums I have not ever heard anyone complain about these issues or even know about them.
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post #454 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy

+1, I went through these same forum gyrations at the beginning of the 2010 season. People were quickly exclaiming they were going to wait until the 2011 models came out because of all the terrible issues with blacks, buzzing, line bleed, false contours, flicker and on and on. Meanwhile, I got my 58VT25 in July, had it D-Nice calibrated and have been enjoying the he'll out of it ever since. None of the problems ever reported on here have ever popped up and I don't expect them to. The TV is on night and day so I imagine the hours are getting up there. The PQ is still absolutely stunning. I do care, I do know and I do take notice but count me in the 99.9%. And yes, I plan to buy a 2011 model for the BR. No need to wait until 2012.
Ditto with my P65S2, on night and day too, and I didn't even have it calibrated, just used D-Nice's settings (thanks D-Nice!)

What's BR, btw?
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post #455 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by eonibm View Post
LOVE that post! I've asked every single friend about their panasonic plasma and they just love it. When I mention blacks rising, floating blacks etc they go "whaa?"

Too bad so many newbies to this forum start obsessing about an issue that is one for only 0.01% of the buying public.
I agree with you in principle though I find it interesting that some of the same people (not citing you specifically) that say "most people don't notice it" and it won't matter to most didn't seem to accept that same argument when touting how black levels were a problem for Samsungs or other major brands. The reality is the same vast majority who wouldn't notice these issues on the Panasonic don't other other decent sets either.
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post #456 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by eonibm View Post
LOVE that post! I've asked every single friend about their panasonic plasma and they just love it. When I mention blacks rising, floating blacks etc they go "whaa?"

Too bad so many newbies to this forum start obsessing about an issue that is one for only 0.01% of the buying public.
Its true. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have a 60u, 85u and S1 and they all look the same as the day I bought them. A few fam members have a G10, an S2.

None of us can discern the black level rise...if it even has happened. If you cannot notice it...why care?

This forum is filled with people who wont buy a panasonic cause the blacks rise, wont buy a samsung cause it buzzes, wont buy an lcd because its back light driven (all in combination), and wish they still made CRTs. Doesn't that sound crazy?
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post #457 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post
Its true. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have a 60u, 85u and S1 and they all look the same as the day I bought them. A few fam members have a G10, an S2.

None of us can discern the black level rise...if it even has happened. If you cannot notice it...why care?
I've gotten used to it at this point with my 58S1. Black level hasn't tripled because I adjusted my voltage. Comparing pics (I know not the Best method) and analysis using Photoshop, they have slightly more than doubled, my estimate using image analysis around .014 ftl as opposed to .016-.018 ftl without the voltage adjustment. And I'm well over 2000 hours. Its only noticeable in scenes that tend towards darkness. Here it is definitely noticeable. But Bright scenes still look equally as gorgeous (Even bright scenes with lots of black highlights, etc...) as the day I bought the set.
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post #458 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post
I've gotten used to it at this point with my 58S1. Black level hasn't tripled because I adjusted my voltage. Comparing pics (I know not the Best method) and analysis using Photoshop, they have slightly more than doubled, my estimate using image analysis around .014 ftl as opposed to .016-.018 ftl without the voltage adjustment. And I'm well over 2000 hours. Its only noticeable in scenes that tend towards darkness. Here it is definitely noticeable. But Bright scenes still look equally as gorgeous (Even bright scenes with lots of black highlights, etc...) as the day I bought the set.
That being said I still think I'm going to pick up a 60 inch ST30 model, especially if we can get the .004 ftl black level of the VT25 (Which I think we will)
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post #459 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post
Its true. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have a 60u, 85u and S1 and they all look the same as the day I bought them. A few fam members have a G10, an S2.

None of us can discern the black level rise...if it even has happened. If you cannot notice it...why care?

This forum is filled with people who wont buy a panasonic cause the blacks rise, wont buy a samsung cause it buzzes, wont buy an lcd because its back light driven (all in combination), and wish they still made CRTs. Doesn't that sound crazy?
well it's there. and you may not notice it because it's gradual. you really need to do a side by side. One with 200 hours... then one with 2000+ hours.

so what you saying does not mean anything to most of the AVS members.
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post #460 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:12 AM
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So they certainly would have pointed out 72Hz-per-eye if they had implemented it. Apparently I'm still not buying a Panasonic for another year. I have a Kuro Elite and the 3D is the big step-up feature, and I can't stand 60Hz-per-eye in 3D.

The lack of72HZ-per-eye 3D is also a pain because every time you play a 2D movie vs. a 3D movie you have to switch the 24p output of the Blu-ray player on and off, because even Panasonic's own Blu-ray isn't smart enough to turn 24p output off for 3D mode.

Since the set doesn't do 72Hz-per-eye, with 24p output from the Blu-ray player you get 48Hz-per-eye which is unwatchable. You can't believe how many store demo systems I've seen with terrible flickering just because the dealer was unaware of this issue. Once you disable 24p Blu-ray output, you get 60Hz-per-eye (which is still too low for me).

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post #461 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post
well it's there. and you may not notice it because it's gradual. you really need to do a side by side. One with 200 hours... then one with 2000+ hours.

so what you saying does not mean anything to most of the AVS members.
My G25 with its .007 ftl mll in the darkest scenes (low enough APL to avoid floating) still looks fairly poor in these scenes. I think .004 is the first level that is acceptable for black level in the darkest scenes in a pitch dark room. If we get slightly under .002 ftl MLL on the VT30 , then that will be a VERY attractive set.
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post #462 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post
My G25 with its .007 ftl mll in the darkest scenes (low enough APL to avoid floating) still looks fairly poor in these scenes. I think .004 is the first level that is acceptable for black level in the darkest scenes in a pitch dark room. If we get slightly under .002 ftl MLL on the VT30 , then that will be a VERY attractive set.
My opinion is that any MLL below .020 is sufficient for bright scenes. Once you get to .010, even moderately bright scenes look great. Its just every step of brightness down, you'll want a lower MLL, and in the darkest scenes, for realistic blacks, you'll want an MLL .004 or below, but even that MLL will glow in a dark room.
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post #463 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eonibm View Post
Ditto with my P65S2, on night and day too, and I didn't even have it calibrated, just used D-Nice's settings (thanks D-Nice!)

What's BR, btw?
BR should have read BD, as in Blu-ray Disc. Though the poster you quoted may be referencing something else entirely, hah.
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post #464 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post
I think the blacks will still triple over time. Just a hunch. None of the reps are giving a clear "no" and are just saying the same BS they were told to say last year.

Maybe Panny engineers are very proud of rising black levels and don't want to alter their unique technology
If I worked at Panasonic I wouldn't give a straightforward answer either. If the numbers being thrown around hold up Panasonic will have slightly better better blacks than Samsung out of the box. Panasonic will get all the great reviews, Cnet will label the VT30 something like "Best 2D and 3D picture of 2011" and Panasonic will sell a bunch of them. What possible reason do they have to change the way they operate.

On another subject....is it true that there is no Kuro tech in the VT30?

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #465 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:31 AM
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Panasonic TC-PVT30 series models:
Panasonic TC-P55VT30: 55 inch
Panasonic TC-P65VT30: 65 inch


Editor's take: I notice that the description of the new Pro 2 panel includes the words "subtle, delicate" but not "deeper" or "darker." I interpret that as a possible indication that the VT30 will not match the depth of the Kuro's blacks. But once again I'll have to wait until I see one in person, and directly compare it to the VT25 and the Kuro (not to mention the new Samsung D8000), to get the full story. Even after that, long-term testing will be in order to see how those blacks fare over time--both on Panasonic and on Samsung and LG plasmas. Finally, I find it strange that Panasonic is only offering two screen sizes, and wouldn't be surprised to see others appear later in the year.

Update Jan 7, 2010: I spoke with Panasonic's rep at the booth and found out a few more preliminary details about the new plasmas.

He couldn't say whether the actual black levels (MLL) would be improved (specs for the new panels were not finalized), but in any case mentioned that the VT30 would not use "Kuro tech" (see the comments below for more). He also couldn't speak to any change for 2011 in the designed-in MLL increase I found on the VT25 and other models. He did mention improving shadow detail, but didn't know whether the "floating blacks" of previous models (I saw them on the G series last year, although others have also reported them on the VT25) had been addressed. Finally, he didn't know whether the contouring artifacts I noticed in 1080p/24 mode on the VT25 had been removed on the VT30.

In terms of 3D he mentioned improvements related to crosstalk reduction, but said that the VT30 uses the same amber-tinted glasses, so major changes to color offsets were not made. He also described a new frame-interpolation processor for 3D that's designed to make the 24p video appear smoother--it has two settings, and can be disabled. All three series will get 2D to 3D conversion systems.

Other major improvements were made in the screen filters, which apparently preserve black levels in ambient light better without increasing the brightness of reflections (all of the new 3D series have better filters, but the VT30's are darker.) He confirmed that the ST30 and GT30 have the same panel, and that THX is the only real picture quality difference between them.

The rep also stressed that he hadn't been fully briefed on all of the differences in the new plasmas, so this info is as usual subject to change.
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post #466 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV

well it's there. and you may not notice it because it's gradual. you really need to do a side by side. One with 200 hours... then one with 2000+ hours.

so what you saying does not mean anything to most of the AVS members.
Edit "most" to "some"
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post #467 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97
BR should have read BD, as in Blu-ray Disc. Though the poster you quoted may be referencing something else entirely, hah.
No, my BR meant for Bedroom, as in FR, LR and MC (Man Cave).
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post #468 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV

well it's there. and you may not notice it because it's gradual. you really need to do a side by side. One with 200 hours... then one with 2000+ hours.

so what you saying does not mean anything to most of the AVS members.
Well you just proved my point because no consumer is going to go to the lengths you say are required to perform this test you say they need to perform so they can notice something they aren't noticing in the first place (ie because it is gradual as you say).

Pioneer went out of business producing high-end sets because they couldn't make money at it, ie catering to the 0.01% of the market (many of whom are Avsforum members) instead of the 99.9 % of the market that, prudently, Panasonic is catering to.

So, you have to look at it like a businessman and realize that Kuro competitive sets are not going to be coming out from Panasonic for years to come. And, what of all those engineers Panasonic hired from Pioneer? They're working on other stuff. As for the Kuro patents they acquired, they'll be sitting on a shelf until Panasonic feels they need to implement some or all of them for competitive reasons and that day ain't going to come anytime soon.
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post #469 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post
Well you just proved my point because no consumer is going to go to the lengths you say are required to perform this test you say they need to perform so they can notice something they aren't noticing in the first place (ie because it is gradual as you say).

Pioneer went out of business producing
high-end sets because they couldn't make money at it, ie catering to the 0.01% of the market (many of whom are Avsforum members) instead of the 99.9 % of the market that, prudently, Panasonic is catering to.

So, you have to look at it like a businessman and realize that Kuro competitive sets are not going to be coming out from Panasonic for years to come. And, what of all those engineers Panasonic hired from Pioneer? They're working on other stuff. As for the Kuro patents they acquired, they'll be sitting on a shelf until Panasonic feels they need to implement some or all of them for competitive reasons and that day ain't going to come anytime soon.
Basically what I think too. Why would they need to implement it if they are selling lots of tv's now. I don't believe implementing the Kuro tech would change their bottom line in any substantial way. I still say they bought it to prevent someone else from having/using it not for their own use. All they have to do is be competitive with Samsung etc. not blow them out of the water & they are.

The main buying public could care less but put Youtube on the set & it's a sure seller.
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post #470 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by VFR View Post
True.....well at least 98% of the time.
60% of the time it works every time.
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post #471 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 04:24 PM
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Did anyone at CES hear from Panasonic anything about a ZT30 series announced by hdtvreview a month or two ago?
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post #472 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:00 PM
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post #473 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post
That being said I still think I'm going to pick up a 60 inch ST30 model, especially if we can get the .004 ftl black level of the VT25 (Which I think we will)
I am looking to pick up a 65" this year. Now that we know there is no difference in picture quality or black filter between the ST and GT (besides THX picture preset, over rated IMO) I'm definitely getting the ST. I'm not going to pay several hundred more for the same tv with a picture preset I won't use. Sounds like the best bang for the buck this year.
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post #474 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gary cornell View Post
Thats the 2010 model...
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post #475 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:12 PM
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so these new panels have a "spring" release. Wonder if that means May..........hate to wait that long
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post #476 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:17 PM
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so these new panels have a "spring" release. Wonder if that means May..........hate to wait that long
Feb ST30, March GT30, and March/April for VT30
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post #477 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1

Feb ST30, March GT30, and March/April for VT30
How do you know those are the release dates?
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post #478 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:23 PM
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Anyone know the dimensions for 2011 models?
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post #479 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:29 PM
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How do you know those are the release dates?
D-Nice
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post #480 of 3327 Old 01-07-2011, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gary cornell View Post
Anyone know the dimensions for 2011 models?
I've looked everywhere for the dimensions and have found zero information at this time, but just by looking at the bezels in the pictures they look to be about the same size as the G25 series, but that doesn't help you if you're looking for dimensions on the new 55" and 60" sizes

Usually we don't know the actual dimensions until Panasonic puts the new models up on their website and makes the user manuals available for download a week or two before the model becomes available for sale.

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