why don't plasmas have a higher refresh rate? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 130 Old 11-02-2010, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektarios View Post

MCFI is not a complete solution, because even in it's perfect form, it fabricates new fake frames based on the real ones and that is not always what it's desirable, especially in games and desktop applications. Who really wants to see things created and displayed by something other than the source? MCFI in principle, can never create 100% true image frames in comparison with the real source and therefore it will always produce artifacts (things that the source didn't or did meant to be displayed) one way or another.

Also it's much more demanding and error prone to reach 240fps (with or without MCFI) to mitigate the hold-type blur than to just make a better BFI that doesn't need high FPS.

The real challenge and the goal is to display 100% of the source input, as it is, and nothing extra without having any kind of blur/judder.

So in my opinion to effectivaly, practically and realistically eliminate the hold-type blur in LCDs, is to have:
  • FPS at or above the refresh rate (60hz -> 60fps, 24hz -> 24fps, 120hz -> 120fps),
  • Real <1ms RT crystals
  • Use BFI effectively keeping the hold time very low and immitating CRT's scan type
This way even at low FPS there will be no judder/blur.

I think you are getting confused. Firstly BFI not only inserts a black frame ie effectively increases fps, to reduce hold effect it also refreshes the pixels to reduce RT.

2ndly, and related to the 1st point, is that INTRINSICALLY LCD need a higher fps, either through BFI, MCFI or higher source fps, to reduce motion judder. Personally I don't like MCFI but as per Achalas, it is a good intermediate solution for LCD until we can get 60/75fps (PC do-able) or even 120 fps (hoping) video sources. Strobbing backlight can help as discuss below

3rdly you are confusing 2 different type of judder as per xrox and what I had posted before. Low fps WILL produce motion judder in ANY display. If we take it to the extreme and play a 1fps source with motion on ANY display without MCFI, it will judder.

To confuse matters further for J6P, both LCD and plasma use higher Hz to solve a problem, but they are DIFFERENT problems. Plasma is to solve flickering, LCD is to solve Hold effect.

So we have a range of refresh rate to consider: On the lower end, the movie industry has decided for us that it will be 24fps for various reasons. On the other hand what is the highest refresh rate that is needed such that our human perception can be fooled? Why stop at 240Hz and not 1000Hz? My guess is that around 85-120Hz if should be sufficient to fool the brain. Plasma hold time is 3X that of CRT but there isn't noticeable hold effect. I am suggesting that we should not chase numbers, else we would be like the J6P chasing the slimmest TV, Sure 2" is a big difference from CRT 12" depth. But 1 or 0.5" is it that perceivable or even useful vs 2"? So is 4ms that much a difference in perception vs 2 or 1ms? IMHO 120Hz or 8ms is sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

If we digress a bit and build on what we discuss, then 120Hz refresh with backlight strobbing is probably a better solution (IF IT IS IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY) than just focusing on the absolute number of 240Hz which marketing is trying to push.

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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

LCD scan pixel data line by line which makes it very difficult to sync the backlight. Even if done perfectly the diffuser will still enable slight ghosting artifacts to be produced.

That's why the pixel change and the strobe has to be synchronise properly and implemented precisely. Actually I was reminded of the pixar zeostrope in disneyland that shows this concept quite vividly. The different positioning of the figures are like different state of the pixel. And when it is without the light strobbing it is blurred due to eyeball motion tracking and Hold Effect from the bright light and the RT ie the relatively slow spinning wheel. But when light is strobbed then it becomes much clearer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0eAG8768Io&NR=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by achalas View Post

I'm uncertain of the results of these techniques in practice. DB, (doug blackburn), has done some testing and believes they aren't enough. (Also, The third row interpolated images should be replaced with the non-interpolated frame originals to avoid the soap-opera in movies.) Perhaps deeper digging in that thread is needed. Anyway, if what I quoted from you just above is true then as you say the increase in the refresh rate will allow emulation of an analogue-like cycle time reduction. I'm not fully convinced that the proposed 'binary dropoff' is the reason, or rather, a problem for bfi or backlight strobing or scanning. It could introduce flicker, but this can be eliminated with a high refresh rate.

Interesting link to Sony's solution. But I am confused with the HX900 diagram. On the bottom row they are using MCFI PLUS a type of strobe which is why there is black rows in the picture? And doing that at 1/1200 per second???

As per posted before I do think a 120Hz LCD panel plus backlight strobbing is more optimal than a "real" 240Hz LCD. Full rear LED array LCD with local dimming is likely to be more effective in the strobbing than edge lit light guide. With LED shortage over, we could see more implementations of these LED LCD sets.
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post #92 of 130 Old 11-03-2010, 02:43 AM
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Yes on the bottom row of the first image they are showing the frame, then turning off led backlight, then showing an mcfi frame, then turning off the led, then showing the next frame. Bottom row of the second image they showing 3 intervening mcfi frames and emulating a scanning backlight on hx900 series (full array local dimming). They're not going to go in reverse for one because >120hz solves some issues for 3d.
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post #93 of 130 Old 11-03-2010, 03:58 AM
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I think you misunderstood my question. I am referring JUST to the 2nd image ie the HX900 NOT the LX900 or HX800 diagram

The last row shows FIVE separate frames of BOTH the actual and interpolated images with black rows across the frames (if you look at the frames carefully). What does that mean? Meaning the LED backlight flashes 5 time in 1/240 seconds ie 1/1200 sec per flash ie 0.83ms??

Yes agree that 3D, which I am not interested in , needs 240Hz as you need 120Hz for each eye, but the principle remains.
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post #94 of 130 Old 11-03-2010, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

Even for the people who do want MCFI, they can still have it like plasmas do.

Plasma don't need MCFI. Some have it as a matter of keeping up with the Joneses ie LCD for J6P. It is pure marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

There will still be judder, in fact it will be more pronounced with better motion resolution. But that's not a bad thing at all, judder is normal for low framerates and is what we've always had on CRT and plasma. Frankly I don't understand what people are complaining about with regards to judder, it just isn't something that needs fixing.

Motion resolution is what needs fixing on LCD, and they need to fix it natively without any MCFI.

I read this thrice and I am not sure I understand what you are saying Judder is an artifact that we want it removed. In fact the camera man always have to be aware of panning judder and background judder when filming, so that viewers like you and I don't puke

Motion resolution is another topic but seems to be less relevant now as LCD can reach around 900 vs 400 or so some years back.
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post #95 of 130 Old 11-03-2010, 07:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

The last row shows FIVE separate frames of BOTH the actual and interpolated images with black rows across the frames (if you look at the frames carefully). What does that mean? Meaning the LED backlight flashes 5 time in 1/240 seconds ie 1/1200 sec per flash ie 0.83ms??

I think the image is showing the backlight scanning vertically each 1/240'th of a second, not 5 flashes of each image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Plasma don't need MCFI. Some have it as a matter of keeping up with the Joneses ie LCD for J6P. It is pure marketing.

Yes I know. I was just saying that even with BFI on LCD's, they could put MCFI on top of it still, in order to please J6P.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

I read this thrice and I am not sure I understand what you are saying Judder is an artifact that we want it removed. In fact the camera man always have to be aware of panning judder and background judder when filming, so that viewers like you and I don't puke

But we've been watching films this way in the cinema and on CRT's since the beginning. I don't believe you can get rid of judder without using deliberate blurring or frame interpolation, so I don't see how it can be improved without ruining the look and feel of it.
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post #96 of 130 Old 11-04-2010, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post
I too was sensible enough on old PC CRT and always needed to put the CRT on 75hz to feel confortable.
Back in the CRT days I used to prefer 100 Hz. At anything less 72 Hz the CRT flicker was noticeable bad -- especially when you looked at the monitor edge so the main portion of the screen was in your outer perception.

Either I've learned to live with it, or just ignore it, as I haven't really noticed image flicker on plasmas, or lcds.

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post #97 of 130 Old 11-04-2010, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post
Does that mean it takes longer than than the RT to change the state of the entire raster? If so, how much longer?
This figure may be the actual refresh freq, so it would take 120th of a second to tell all pixels from top to bottom what their next colour should be, on a 120hz display set to 120hz. I asked this question over at hardforum.com
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post #98 of 130 Old 11-04-2010, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

Does that mean it takes longer than than the RT to change the state of the entire raster? If so, how much longer?

Sorrry did not see this question until achalas answered it. As he says the refresh period is the time required to scan data to all pixel rows line by line.

For a 60Hz display the refresh period is 16.7ms meaning it takes 16.7ms to scan data to all the pixels line by line. And because it is a sample and hold (ie - write data and hold data value) each row of pixels will have constant data value for exactly 16.7ms.

- by the time the last row is sent data the first row has been at a constant value for 16.7ms
- by the time the second last row is sent data the last row has been at a constant value for 16.7ms

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post #99 of 130 Old 11-18-2010, 10:57 PM
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I am so glad I found this thread. I got a Samsung PN63C8000 plasma this week, and the flicker has been bugging me. I wasn't sure if it was a defective set, so I posted my report about it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post19506577 .

Essentially its EXACTLY as keyser (OP) described in his opening post in this thread.

I want to be very clear that the flicker I see is NOT related to motion artifacts or any processing controls / features such as DFI. It also is not related to any of my sources or signal types (1o80i vs 1080p/24 etc).

How do I know this for sure? My Samsung has a built-in test image in the user menu for diagnostic purposes. When you select it a beautiful sun lit beach with ocean and sky is displayed on the entire TV. I can see the same flicker here as I do in my other sources such as my STB and Blu-ray player.

And yes, like keyser posted I too am also sensitive to CRT monitor flicker. I have to run at least 72hz or I see flicker on those.

My plasma is absolutely gorgeous with great detail. However the flickering definitely distracts me, even if I go looking for it. My 3 year old 55" Sony DLP RPTV has none of the flicker whatsoever. Neither does the Sony LX900 that I looked at today in Best Buy.

I like my plasma so much (and its 3D is quite spectacular as well) that I am trying to overlook the flickering. Maybe I can somehow learn to desensitize myself to it.

Are there any settings or tricks you think I can use which may help minimize how noticeable the flickering is?
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post #100 of 130 Old 11-21-2010, 10:14 PM
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Hope you read the thread and realised you are the few blessed/unfortunate ones with sensitive eyes :P

I am not familiar with your set but IMHO try disabling features that are brightness related like sensors or black enhancement type of "features". If all else fails try reducing the contrast but that will affect your PQ. Sorry that's all I can suggest except go for LCD and choose your poison.
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post #101 of 130 Old 11-21-2010, 11:05 PM
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I still dont understand what this flicker is everyone talks about. Even in 2006 plasma sets i cant see anything flicker
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post #102 of 130 Old 11-21-2010, 11:55 PM
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I don't see it either but some can at <75Hz, just as some see phosphor trails which I can't as well.
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post #103 of 130 Old 11-22-2010, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

I don't see it either but some can at <75Hz, just as some see phosphor trails which I can't as well.

With computer CRT monitors I had to run with a refresh rate of at least 72Hz. Anything lower and I would see the refresh flicker (constant). As I recall there was no noticeable difference to me between 72Hz and 75Hz.

Sometimes I would sit at a co-worker or relative's computer and think wow how can deal with their monitor like this, and if I checked the refresh rate it was 60Hz. I had always just assumed that they did not notice the flicker or it didn't bother then. Now I realize in many cases they simply may have not been able to see the flicker.

It is interesting to find that some cannot see the plasma flicker. I've asked a few folks who have seen my set, and none of them could see any hint of it. Whereas I can see it quite clearly. I am thinking "how can they not see this?". And they are probably thinking "this guy is crazy".

When I view my 3 year old RPTV Sony DLP HDTV, on the other hand, the image is very stable. Not a hint of flicker whatsoever, even with the same sources and same material where I can see it on the plasma. That is how I know I'm not imagining this.
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post #104 of 130 Old 11-22-2010, 06:38 AM
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As an experiment I tried plugging the TV directly into the wall, instead of into the UPS SmartUps that the other equipment is plugged into. When plugged directly into the wall, the flicker seems a bit less pronounced than when its plugged into the Smart Ups. My thought is that maybe the flickering is somehow related to the quality or other aspect of the power? Not saying it is caused by it, but maybe it can have an effect on it?

I don't have a power conditioner, but am wondering if maybe such a thing would help. These are not cheap though (anyone know of a good reasonably priced on?) so I wouldn't want to try it unless I had good reason to think it could help.

Thanks!
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post #105 of 130 Old 11-22-2010, 09:20 AM
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There have been reports that the faster phosphors on the new 3D displays are more likely to create flicker on bright scenes. This has always been a problem with PC CRT monitors as they have fast phosphors. I can't stand looking at a PC CRT at 60 Hz.

CRT televisions have slow phosphors to hide the interlacing flicker.

I don't know if the Pioneer has fast phosphors, even though it is not 3D.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser View Post
There were no displays around the 63" Samsung plasma. I noticed flickering during bright scenes, escpecially at the edges(when looking at the middle). I notice the same with my Pioneer if I don't set it to 75hz. I noticed the same with 50/60hz CRTs(and I assume most due, since they started selling 100hz).


So it's like I thought, they just can't do it without having artifacts.
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post #106 of 130 Old 12-29-2010, 08:25 AM
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Need a little help please...I have an lg 46ld550 120 hz which allows me to set the judder and blur separately. When watching movies (not really regular HD TV but regular movies or dvd's) I see what looks like part stuttering and part blur. On my old CRT I never saw that stuff. What adjustments can I do to the blur and judder to make it seem more like my CRT? Thank y0u very much
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post #107 of 130 Old 02-24-2011, 05:22 PM
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I found the following articles to be useful/interesting re
the persistence-of-vision issue:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/oth...arameters.html
http://www.behardware.com/articles/6...screening.html

BTW, the LCD response time numbers are not worst case. :-(
See the graphs in some of the xbitlab reviews.

Can someone explain what you mean by "soap opera effect"?
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post #108 of 130 Old 02-24-2011, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter2 View Post

I found the following articles to be useful/interesting re
the persistence-of-vision issue:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/oth...arameters.html
http://www.behardware.com/articles/6...screening.html

BTW, the LCD response time numbers are not worst case. :-(
See the graphs in some of the xbitlab reviews.

Can someone explain what you mean by "soap opera effect"?

Soap opera effect is the effect you see when there is overly smooth motion on a high refresh rate display (usually LCD).

From film sources the source no longer looks "film like" and looks like something that has been shot with a hand held camcorder, but smoothed out.

It's difficult to describe but I personally find it nauseating and can't stand watching it for extended periods of time. We have a 120hz LCD in my wife's office and every time I see a movie playing on it I am turned off by how it looks.

Something that people seem to forget is that a certain amount of flicker is normal from 24P film source, you will see this not only in film theaters but also at IMAX presentations, since they just speed up the 24P content an even number of times.

I will take a movie with a little bit of flicker over the soap opera effect any day of the week.
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post #109 of 130 Old 02-24-2011, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post


Soap opera effect is the effect you see when there is overly smooth motion on a high refresh rate display (usually LCD).

From film sources the source no longer looks "film like" and looks like something that has been shot with a hand held camcorder, but smoothed out.

It's difficult to describe but I personally find it nauseating and can't stand watching it for extended periods of time. We have a 120hz LCD in my wife's office and every time I see a movie playing on it I am turned off by how it looks.

Something that people seem to forget is that a certain amount of flicker is normal from 24P film source, you will see this not only in film theaters but also at IMAX presentations, since they just speed up the 24P content an even number of times.

I will take a movie with a little bit of flicker over the soap opera effect any day of the week.

I agree 100%. Personally i dont see flicker myself. Soap opera effect is more annoying than any other issue mentioned on a hdtv.

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #110 of 130 Old 02-27-2011, 11:39 AM
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> Soap opera effect is the effect you see when there is
> overly smooth motion on a high refresh rate display (usually LCD).

Smooth motion sounds like it would be a *good* thing? Closer to
what we see in real life.

> From film sources the source no longer looks "film like" and looks
> like something that has been shot with a hand held camcorder, but
> smoothed out.

By "hand held camcorder", do you mean that the image is bouncing
around in space?

If there is frame interpolation, presumably the algorithm is guessing
wrong about where objects are supposed to be, resulting in objects
appearing to be bouncing around in space.

I found:
>> The "soap opera effect" is a phrase used to describe the effects of
>> frame interpolation
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18414721

> I personally find it nauseating

Classic symptom of motion sickness. (Some people get headaches
instead of nausea.) In recent years more and more material has
excessive motion, excessive zooming/panning, etc. and can
induce motion sickness, even without computers generating bogus
intermediate frames using wild guesses.

2:3 pulldown telecine judder should have a similar effect to
this frame interpolation judder? The 2:3 judder would be
fairly constant, so perhaps the brain can get used to it to
some extent. Frame interpolation judder will be random, so
we can't get used to it at all.

> Something that people seem to forget is that a certain amount
> of flicker is normal from 24P film source, you will see this
> not only in film theaters but also at IMAX presentations,
> since they just speed up the 24P content an even number of times.

"Normal" films are double shuttered (48fps) to reduce flicker.
I'm not sure what IMAX does (triple?). Double/triple/whatever
shuttering would not reduce the "strobe light" jerkiness. I'm
sure there is some technical term for this, but I haven't found
it. Given all the money, effort, and technology that throw at
movies/TV these days, they really ought to increase the frame rate.

Frame interpolation would be a great way to eliminate the
blur from sample-and-hold, since it doesn't increase flicker.
Except that it will never be possible to get it right.

Since frame interpolation cannot work, it seems to me that
turning off the backlight while the LCD crystals are changing
their twist would be the best way to elimimate the blur from
sample-and-hold. Film projectors and CRT televisions have
been using this method for decades with good results.

Is there a list somewhere of LCD TVs/monitors that use the
turning off the backlight method?
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post #111 of 130 Old 02-27-2011, 05:17 PM
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>Smooth motion sounds like it would be a *good* thing? Closer to
what we see in real life.

most people confuse this concept. If the smooth motion is recorded at source it will be real life. But if it is manipulated at display then it will look weird with SOE. Hence a 60fps source on a 60Hz display will look more lifelike than a 30fps source on a 120Hz display.

The switching off backlight is called strobbing. Read the earlier posts in this thread about Sony.
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post #112 of 130 Old 02-28-2011, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Soap opera effect is the effect you see when there is overly smooth motion on a high refresh rate display (usually LCD).

From film sources the source no longer looks "film like" and looks like something that has been shot with a hand held camcorder, but smoothed out.

It's difficult to describe but I personally find it nauseating and can't stand watching it for extended periods of time. We have a 120hz LCD in my wife's office and every time I see a movie playing on it I am turned off by how it looks.

Something that people seem to forget is that a certain amount of flicker is normal from 24P film source, you will see this not only in film theaters but also at IMAX presentations, since they just speed up the 24P content an even number of times.

I will take a movie with a little bit of flicker over the soap opera effect any day of the week.

You can turn the Soap Opera Effect (Motion Interpolation and motion smoothing options) OFF on a LCd.
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post #113 of 130 Old 04-19-2011, 12:44 PM
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Interesting discussion which had some questions answered, but not all..

Now do I understand correctly that PDP show each frame for 4-6ms and then for the rest of 10-12ms there is no image (frame) displayed on the screen? i.e. black? (4+12 = 16ms or the 1/60 when operating at 60Hz)

I am trying to understand why 'sample-and-hold' (or 'hold-time') effect isn't happening on Plasmas.





Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I don't agree. If you list hold-times of various display tech and then list them in order of reputation for blur the list will be sorted in relative to hold time.

Remember I'm listing "hold-time" here and not RT

PMOLED - microseconds
CRT - 1 ms
PDP - 4-6ms
120Hz LCD (MCFI) - 8.3ms
AMOLED - 16.7 ms
60Hz LCD - 16.7ms

Now as I speculated, RT may be more important when hold time is reduced to 8ms. Or maybe not. I have a paper from 2009 that suggests that RT blur is negilgible with modern displays with RT in the single digits.

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post #114 of 130 Old 04-19-2011, 05:55 PM
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Because your retina gets to refresh during the black moments.

Same logic why LCD implement Black Frame Insertion and Strobing backlight.
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post #115 of 130 Old 04-20-2011, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Because your retina gets to refresh during the black moments.

Same logic why LCD implement Black Frame Insertion and Strobing backlight.

So these 'black moments' on a PDP display are during 10-12ms after the frame was displayed?

So can we say the procedure is like this?

1. Subpixels light up
2. They stay lit for 4-6ms
3. They are turned off and there is black moment 10-12ms
4. Subpixels light up (next frame)


I understand that to get rid of hold effect you need to turn off image, but i wonder when exactly is this happening on Plasma display.
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post #116 of 130 Old 04-20-2011, 04:11 AM
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It is not as binary (ie on or off) like LCD. It is more analogue in moving from bright to dark.
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post #117 of 130 Old 04-20-2011, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

It is not as binary (ie on or off) like LCD. It is more analogue in moving from bright to dark.

But cay we say that the process is similar to the steps i wrote?

There is strong light intensity during first 4-6ms and then the light intensity is reduced gradually? Because natural gass discharge is much faster afaik, so this cool-down process must be maintained under controled conditions....that is if everything above is true.
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post #118 of 130 Old 04-21-2011, 01:34 AM
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General concept is right for pulse based but technically may be more complex if we consider the refresh in 600Hz, which I read the sequence may have been modified for 3D but can't remember as I dont care 3D
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post #119 of 130 Old 04-21-2011, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

General concept is right for pulse based but technically may be more complex if we consider the refresh in 600Hz, which I read the sequence may have been modified for 3D but can't remember as I dont care 3D

As I understand, this 10-time subpixel reflash (subfield drive) happens during those initial 4-6ms and then everything shuts off and subpixel goes to sleep
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post #120 of 130 Old 03-26-2012, 03:34 AM
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oh dear...just read through the thread, and instantly became sad... i can also see the 60hz flicker because i use my PS64D8000 as a Monitor and most pages in Windows are white...So i guess there is nothing i can do...?
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