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Old 11-01-2010, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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OK all Im after the best plasma on the market today, I know a few years ago it was the Pioneer Kuros but they are not manufactured anymore. So what is now considered the Kuro replacement? And what about 3D? Does the replacement do 3D?

Anyway thanks for your replies

James
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:39 AM
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How deep are your pockets? Few could argue with a giant plasma:

http://panasonic.net/proplasma/3d_plasma/3d_plasma.html

For those with a budget of mere mortals, smaller sizes are due by February.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:57 AM
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There is no Kuro replacement, unfortunately.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:00 AM
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8yrs ago people though nothing of dropping that type of coin on a 65" RPTV...
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

8yrs ago people though nothing of dropping that type of coin on a 65" RPTV...

If you mean the VX series I mention above, keep in mind that the cheapest of them (the 85") is likely to have an MSRP around $30k. The 152" MSRP's at whopping $500,000. No joke.

The upcoming 50" to 65" VX200 models should be affordable enough for a home theatre set up.
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlevin View Post

There is no Kuro replacement, unfortunately.

So are you saying that since the last Kuro was released there hasn't been another plasma that's come close in both PQ and black levels?

If so, what would be the next best? I here panasonic purchased the Kuro designs so surely they would be close to a good product
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmagoo View Post

So are you saying that since the last Kuro was released there hasn't been another plasma that's come close in both PQ and black levels?

Correct.

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If so, what would be the next best?

Panasonic, Samsung, LG.... take your pick.
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:41 AM
 
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More like, pick your poison.
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Old 11-01-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmagoo View Post


If so, what would be the next best? I here panasonic purchased the Kuro designs so surely they would be close to a good product

They purchased them, but are not using them at this point. I think they bought the rights simply to prevent Samsung or LG from getting them. Pioneer panel tech was different from Panasonic, so they would have to change more than just circuitry to implement much of the Kuro tech.
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:00 PM
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I would guess the VT25 would be second best to the Kuro based on the reviews. It does 3d.
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:20 PM
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The 85-inch Panasonic is on display at my Costco, with a selling price of $20,000. I mention this not to violate pricing rules in any way, but to note it as data. The first time I ever looked at a plasma as a possible purchase the 50-inch Pioneer was retailing for $25,000. That was about 10 years ago.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:26 PM
 
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The Samsung C8000 is the best.

The Vt25 may have slightly better blacks now, but in a couple months, the Samsung will have better blacks.
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:37 PM
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I have a hard time recommending large Samsungs, due to the buzz issues. Panasonics have rising black level issues. LG may be the only hope, but of course they have their problems as well.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

The Samsung C8000 is the best.

The Vt25 may have slightly better blacks now, but in a couple months, the Samsung will have better blacks.

Do you have data to back up that claim or is that an opinion?

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Old 11-01-2010, 03:28 PM
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I managed to see both the Panasonic 65VT25 and the Samsung PN63C8000 side by side this weekend. I have to say that these are the two best sets on the market today. I couldn't tell the difference when comparing 3D as both looked fantastic. The Panny had better blacks, but with the 'rising black level' issue, I tend to place less emphasis on this. The Samsung set itself looked beautiful, and the Panny didn't come close in this regard. I have to say I am more of a Samsung fan, but the extra size on the Panny was noticeable.

If I was going in today to buy a set, it would probably be the Sammy, as it was slightly cheaper, and looked(form wise) better. PQ was equal in my eyes with Panny getting a slight edge in black level. Both are killer sets!
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:45 PM
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Only thing better about the Panny besides black level is input lag.

96hz is garbage on the Panny and floating blacks are also a minor issue. PQ is slightly worse as well.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Do you have data to back up that claim or is that an opinion?

You must not have seen the most recent cnet updates. Black levels rose on 2010 models (including the VT25) again. Ends up being about same level or a little higher than the Samsungs (as in brighter, not darker). It's pretty obvious their deep blacks are more of a marketing ploy than anything else. Make the set look good in the store so you buy it and by the time it's risen you're out of return period.

It's basically how companies label everything with "dynamic constrast" instead of the real contrast. Panasonic has just one-upped on the douche factor by applying the same market practice to the physical characteristics of the set as well, instead of just the labeling. Bear in mind, I am not a big fan of Samsung displays. I have a kuro and would like nothing better than for Panasonic to stop pissing away their Pioneer patents so that people could have great looking sets in an affordable price bracket. They seem more intent on screwing customers though.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:42 PM
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I'm sure Panasonic's prime goal is screwing over their customers. You have clearly hit the nail on the head there!

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:48 PM
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Man what is up with the hate towards Panasonic lately. Most can't even recognize the blacks rising. Better the blacks rising than the tv giving out on you which is common with Samsung historically. Google it and see which is more common.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:07 PM
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Speaking as one who actually owns an LG PK950, I am wondering what the heck are you talking about??? This is one fine TV, a virtually perfect image (including motion!) in the evening. And no need to turn out all the lights, either. The World Series picture quality has been phenomenal!!

It gets to the point that a good TV display is limited by the source material, and not by the TV itself. This TV is well past that point.

The very affordable selling price of the PK950 is just icing on the cake. Do yourself a big favor and buy one!

DelJ





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Originally Posted by StainedGlass View Post

.... LG may be the only hope, but of course they have their problems as well.

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Old 11-01-2010, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

You must not have seen the most recent cnet updates. Black levels rose on 2010 models (including the VT25) again. Ends up being about same level or a little higher than the Samsungs (as in brighter, not darker). It's pretty obvious their deep blacks are more of a marketing ploy than anything else. Make the set look good in the store so you buy it and by the time it's risen you're out of return period.

It's basically how companies label everything with "dynamic constrast" instead of the real contrast. Panasonic has just one-upped on the douche factor by applying the same market practice to the physical characteristics of the set as well, instead of just the labeling. Bear in mind, I am not a big fan of Samsung displays. I have a kuro and would like nothing better than for Panasonic to stop pissing away their Pioneer patents so that people could have great looking sets in an affordable price bracket. They seem more intent on screwing customers though.

Hmmmm. Interesting. The article I read was published on October 7, and specified a MLL of 0.007 for the VT25 up from 0.004 (initial). Where the C8000 was specified initial black (which I take to be out of box) at a value of MLL 0.019. Are you referring to a different article? My math is a bit rusty, but from their reports it would appear that the Samsung is nearly 3 times brighter in black levels than the Panasonic's. Unless it tripled or quadrupled in the last month (not impossible I guess), this appears pretty good to me! Best wishes!

CNET excerpt:

"Despite the near doubling of MLL on the VT25 and G20 we've measured so far, both still exhibit some of the best overall black level performance available on the market today. In order of "blackest" initial black, the other 2010 plasmas in our lab at press time include the Samsung PN50C7000 (0.017 MLL), Samsung PN50C8000 (0.019), and LG PX950 (0.030). All of these numbers are higher (worse) than our estimated "final" MLL of either Panasonic panel."

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...#ixzz146OroFiG

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Old 11-02-2010, 02:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ View Post

Speaking as one who actually owns an LG PK950, I am wondering what the heck are you talking about??? This is one fine TV, a virtually perfect image (including motion!) in the evening. And no need to turn out all the lights, either. The World Series picture quality has been phenomenal!!

It gets to the point that a good TV display is limited by the source material, and not by the TV itself. This TV is well past that point.

The very affordable selling price of the PK950 is just icing on the cake. Do yourself a big favor and buy one!

DelJ

Except you haven't mentioned the undefeatable input lag, undefeatable edge sharpening/smudging artefacts which people are still waiting for a firmware fix on, mediocre black level, broken calibration controls (20 point system) and highly reflective screen.


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Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Hmmmm. Interesting. The article I read was published on October 7, and specified a MLL of 0.007 for the VT25 up from 0.004 (initial). Where the C8000 was specified initial black (which I take to be out of box) at a value of MLL 0.019. Are you referring to a different article? My math is a bit rusty, but from their reports it would appear that the Samsung is nearly 3 times brighter in black levels than the Panasonic's. Unless it tripled or quadrupled in the last month (not impossible I guess), this appears pretty good to me! Best wishes!

While it's true the 50" Sammys don't have a very good black level (0.018ftL) it should be noted that the 58/63" models consistently measure around 0.007ftL-0.008ftL. By the time the VT is done rising, the 58/63C8000 will have the deepest black level. No that it's anything to rave about as Samsung's CCFL LCD's are now at 0.008ftL too.

Not a good year for plasma if you ask me.
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:38 AM
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Haven't been tracking whether there's a '10 version of my spring-'09 Panasonic 65" TH-65VX100U , a pro/designer model. ( Panny site link ). Model got excellent reviews in hometheatermag , CNET , UK's avforums (50" model ) , an early huguru review , and others.

Apparently VX100s got some early Dynamic Black Layer tech. Haven't noticed any diminished black level yet, and not sure how noticeable a designed-in reduction would be with the 65-inch model's reported 60,000:1 CR starting point.

VX100 images remain amazing, mostly 480i/1080i from cable, and was surprised to come across Doug Blackburn's Oct. test results in Widescreen Review of Panny's 3-D VT25. He mentions lots of non-3-D image problems that at least one AVSer agrees with . Reads like they used a reduced-quality video processor, while for the VX100s designers felt commercially available processors weren't good enough for 18-bit processing . -- John

EDIT: Believe that last link site has been dropped, although there should be discusssion of 18-bit processing elsewhere.
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Hmmmm. Interesting. The article I read was published on October 7, and specified a MLL of 0.007 for the VT25 up from 0.004 (initial). Where the C8000 was specified initial black (which I take to be out of box) at a value of MLL 0.019. Are you referring to a different article? My math is a bit rusty, but from their reports it would appear that the Samsung is nearly 3 times brighter in black levels than the Panasonic's. Unless it tripled or quadrupled in the last month (not impossible I guess), this appears pretty good to me! Best wishes!

Either you have never worked on a C8000 and/or do not have the equipment to properly measure the black level. One will measure a higher black level if Cinema Smooth is turned On (Just like the 2009 Samsungs).... which David @ CNet did. Additionally, the 50" model has a higher black level compared to the 58" and 63" models. I've done around 10 of these Samsungs and I consistently get 0.009-0.01fL for the 50" model and 0.007-0.008fL for the 58/63" models. If you require data, I will be happy to oblige.


BTW, I get the same numbers for the C7000 plasmas.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:11 AM
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Just quoting an article which the person I quoted specified. Doesn't mean I agree with it Duayne. Congratualtions on getting such low levels! Best wishes and have a great day!

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Old 11-02-2010, 07:32 AM
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Yes, the successor to the VX100, the VX200, is on the way. The VX200 adds 3D as well as a new SLOT 2.0, which includes 4 fixed HDMI ports (among others) and only one modular input. As I mentioned in my first post above, the giant sizes are being released first, but 65" and smaller sizes are scheduled for early next year.

As you point out, the VX100 received technology acquired from Pioneer (what they had called Crystal Emissive Layer, IIRC). It seems at least plausible (maybe D-Nice can speak more about this) that the VX200 might incorporate other Pioneer innovations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

Haven't been tracking whether there's a '10 version of my spring-'09 Panasonic 65" TH-65VX100U , a pro/designer model. ( Panny site link ). Model got excellent reviews in
hometheatermag , CNET , UK's avforums (50" model ) , an early huguru review , and others.

Apparently VX100s got some early Dynamic Black Layer tech. Haven't noticed any diminished black level yet, and not sure how noticeable a designed-in reduction would be with the 65-inch model's reported 60,000:1 CR starting point.

...

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Old 11-02-2010, 07:38 AM
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Just wondering if you had an opportunity to calibrate an LG PK550, PK750 or PK950 Plasma yet ?

I'd be interested in your opinion of picture quality before and after calibration.

Thanks.

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Old 11-02-2010, 07:42 AM
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Love the sarcasm when your argument has no foundation.

My name is DeWayne, not Duayne, Duane, Dwayne, or any other spelling. If you have trouble typing the correct DeWayne, please stick with D-Nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Just quoting an article Duayne which the person I quoted specified. Doesn't mean I agree with it Duayne. Congratualtions on getting such low levels! I am sure it made your day! Best wishes and have a great day!

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Old 11-02-2010, 07:44 AM
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I don't judge PQ prior to calibration Post calibration, the LGs are right up there with the Samsungs and Panasonics.
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Originally Posted by BruceD View Post

Just wondering if you had an opportunity to calibrate an LG PK550, PK750 or PK950 Plasma yet ?

I'd be interested in your opinion of picture quality before and after calibration.

Thanks.

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Old 11-02-2010, 08:02 AM
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D-Nice,

Thanks for the quick reply.

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