Just picked up a Panasonic TC-P50S2, not happy - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 12:54 PM
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Every 10 years I've upgraded to the lastest Sony XBR tube. Since that is no longer an option I need to decide what is best in terms of the first day of use and each year down the road. Reading this forum and others, I get the impression that manufacturers no longer take pride in quality and they build trendy (3D) disposible product.

I play DVDs and stream Netflex and watch broadcast TV. Interesting that while streaming Netflix my laptop is too dark and I can't see details in the shadows but when I connect to tube TV via s-video I can see the details. In this case, I know why black levels matter.

I'm looking to get a 46-50 inch set that will look real, but not always like a soap opera. I also want to connect another computer to display photography such as slides that I've scanned as 4000dpi tiff files. I was considering the Panasonic VIERA TC-P50G25 but after reading this thread I'm not so sure now.
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post #92 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 01:22 PM
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There are some rudeness towards anyone who buys or has bought Panasonic plasma lately no one should have to defend their purchase(let it go).In my 40 years of buying Audio and Video equipment all of these manufacturers have done things and not take responsibility for it.The consumer are the only ones suffering from moving everything over seas.
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post #93 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 01:32 PM
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That's a generalization. There's rudeness to Panasonic fanboys who pretend issues don't exist just because they bought one. No one should have to defend their purchase, but as soon as they start recommending that product or manufacturer to OTHER people, then any claims they make are up on the table. Rising black levels are an inconvenient fact they don't want to think about. They're entitled to enjoy their set and ignore the problem, but this is avsforums and pretending that a display behaves differently than it does just to make owners feel happy is not how it works. They're entirely free to not look at the plasma forums if they thinking being reminded of the black issues on Panasonics will be detrimental to their enjoyment. Prospective buyers coming here to figure out their holiday season tv purchases should not be misled about the characteristics of Panasonic plasmas just because the fanboys want to give the company a carte blanch.
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post #94 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 02:00 PM
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No everyone comes here for information to make their purchase more enjoyable and to complain about their experience with their certain equipment.By the way I do not happen to be a fanboy of any Manufacture.I hope you go to the other Plasma areas and let everyone know what is wrong with those products also all of them have their problems.
If I thought I could live with the buzzing from the Sammys which is a proven problem or the the ones with LG I would have bought them loved the look and picture of both.
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post #95 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 02:03 PM
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We'll know the situation with 2011 plasmas when 2011 plasmas come out. People have been speculating since the start of 2009 that 2009, 2010, 2011 etc... panels would finally use kuro tech and fix the nagging problems. That has not been the case. So far 3D seems to be the only major thing they've "improved" in a serious way.

How will you know the situation with 2011 plasmas when they come out? Would you not have to do a long term test on those before you would know? Or will the patents come out at the same time that will enable people to figure out if this problem still persists? I was under the impression that D-Nice had some connection with Panasonic which is why I am asking if he has some inside information on the 2011 Plasmas and whether they will still use the same patents or not?

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Regarding the measurements, it's been gone over ad nauseum - cnet (and I believe Cleveland Plasma) had Cinema Smooth enabled, which causes the black level to elevate while it's engaged. Disabling that returns it back to normal.

I am sorry can you please point me to a link that confirms this? I have read a fairly good amount of posts on this forum about this issue and nowhere does it convincingly state this. In fact as I posted previously CNET claims that turning Cinema Smooth on on the Samsung 8000 model caused the black levels to rise from 0.019 to 0.032, so the starting level is not nearly as low as Panasonic's starting level. Why are they only getting 0.019 with the Cinema Smooth off?
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post #96 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowcanary73 View Post

In my 40 years of buying Audio and Video equipment all of these manufacturers have done things and not take responsibility for it.

Exactly, non of them are perfect. Look at Sony's OB issue with the SXRDs, or Samsung's DLP color wheel or light tunnel issues.
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post #97 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowcanary73 View Post

No everyone comes here for information to make their purchase more enjoyable and to complain about their experience with their certain equipment.By the way I do not happen to be a fanboy of any Manufacture.I hope you go to the other Plasma areas and let everyone know what is wrong with those products also all of them have their problems.
If I thought I could live with the buzzing from the Sammys which is a proven problem or the the ones with LG I would have bought them loved the look and picture of both.

Look buddy. I'm a proud Pioneer owner. My only vested interest if you want to call it that is pushing Panasonic to stop lagging behind the other manufacturers and implement Pio tech properly into their sets so that everyone can get similar sets at an affordable price and see what we're going gaga over. Well that and so that I can actually recommend Panasonic to people in the future considering the ones I know who actually bought Panasonics have noticed the rise and complained about it. So yes, my attitude towards Panasonic is a bit less cozy than it used to be.

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Originally Posted by chasingfiction View Post

How will you know the situation with 2011 plasmas when they come out? Would you not have to do a long term test on those before you would know? Or will the patents come out at the same time that will enable people to figure out if this problem still persists? I was under the impression that D-Nice had some connection with Panasonic which is why I am asking if he has some inside information on the 2011 Plasmas and whether they will still use the same patents or not?



I am sorry can you please point me to a link that confirms this? I have read a fairly good amount of posts on this forum about this issue and nowhere does it convincingly state this. In fact as I posted previously CNET claims that turning Cinema Smooth on on the Samsung 8000 model caused the black levels to rise from 0.019 to 0.032, so the starting level is not nearly as low as Panasonic's starting level. Why are they only getting 0.019 with the Cinema Smooth off?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19315821
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post #98 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Sorry about the extra zero's. At the 175 hour test start the reading was 0.008. After 2700 hours the reading was 0.008 to almost 0.009. He turned it on again after 2 days and the numbers showed 0.010 to almost 0.11. 24 hours later the numbers were back down to the 0.009-0.010 range. His conclusion leads me to believe that 98% of owners would not notice a difference after 2700 hours and the other 2% would have to convince themselves that they notice.


This is funny. I have to apologize also. Inadvertently I added an additional zero in my post.

Sorry if I caused any additional confusion.

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post #99 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 03:03 PM
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I know that on my TV that if I have the brightness too high I get the speckles on a black screen, but if I turn it down, so say below 70 they go away.
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post #100 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 03:14 PM
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Please stop the bickering or some people are going to start feeling left out of discussions, if you know what I mean...

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Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #101 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 03:59 PM
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Man, trying to get anything definitive out of this discussion is difficult. Is Panasonic the best or the worst? I can't figure it out from reading these posts. If Panasonic's MLL after 2700 hours is 0.008 to 0.010, as claimed by Home Theaters findings, then how does that compare to the competition? D-Nice you mentioned that you have checked the MLL of Samsung's and Pioneer's after 3,000 or more hours. How do they compare with the Panasonic's numbers? What is Home Theater magazine missing if they consider the G20 the best plasma? Who exactly offers the BEST plasma?
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post #102 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post
Yes, because the majority of people don't want a set that only has deep black levels for a few months. If you don't notice rising black levels on your set then you're lucky and it shouldn't affect you anyway. It's unfair to the competition because the competition put out sets with black levels that don't change over the course of their life. Panasonic cheats by misrepresenting the black level to sell at a higher price. This in turn is also unfair to the customer, but most are unknowingly paying for what they think are blacker blacks despite the fact that they could've gotten comparable overall PQ for much cheaper when you figure on the real black level. I'm sorry, but I don't think avs members want "a good deal until it rises". I think they want black levels that remain consistent over the course of the panel's life so they can get a good indication of how it will look several years out.

The notion that black level rental requiring you to buy a new set every couple years just to maintain the PQ you're used to is nonsensical and very irresponsible. There are limited natural resources, both for energy and for manufacturing. If you want to upgrade your set every several years, that's your choice and your money, but for a company to engineer their sets to try and artificially induce that behavior is unacceptable, especially when they have the technical expertise to avoid it. Especially while misrepresenting the black levels to their customers.

You need to understand what black level is and the reason it rises. It rises because the FINAL black level value on the Panasonics are the real value. Normally, a voltage increase is necessary in order to ensure that all pixels are firing properly. The difference is that other manufacturers design their sets so that they maintain a standard image quality over the course of their life. Panasonic decided to play with the voltages at the start of the set's life to artificially make the panels darker during that period. The real difference is that the other manufacturers are choosing to be honest about black levels and, instead of charging you more for temporary black levels, are increasing the voltage in such a way that the black level stays constant.



We'll know the situation with 2011 plasmas when 2011 plasmas come out. People have been speculating since the start of 2009 that 2009, 2010, 2011 etc... panels would finally use kuro tech and fix the nagging problems. That has not been the case. So far 3D seems to be the only major thing they've "improved" in a serious way.

Regarding the measurements, it's been gone over ad nauseum - cnet (and I believe Cleveland Plasma) had Cinema Smooth enabled, which causes the black level to elevate while it's engaged. Disabling that returns it back to normal.

Also, I'm curious if that Norton article stated what light meter was being used to get those measurements on MLL rise.
CNET measured .019 with CS off and .032 with CS on.
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post #103 of 109 Old 11-18-2010, 06:47 PM
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Correct, my mistake on that one. The larger sizes have better black levels, the smaller sizes have worse ones. So given that we're talking about 50" sizes, the g20/25 should come out comparable after the rise to the Sammy. LG would be slightly darker (.0132 - http://forum.blu-ray.com/plasma-tvs/...ml#post3072741 ) but not significantly so. Either are usually cheaper than a G20/25.

Main point if you go back to the start of the thread is that since the OP was returning his set anyway, he ought to take a look at the competition as well to see what he likes the best. Neoshredder went ballistic at the suggestion that he get anything other than a Panasonic and went on to a) deny rising black levels, b) deny their significance, c) inaccurately claim that they're significantly more reliable than other brands. If you really hated how a display looked, it's worthwhile to look at the alternatives as well instead of just getting a 1:1 swap or an in-line upgrade that potentially has the same visual characteristics that weren't liked on the first set.
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post #104 of 109 Old 11-19-2010, 04:05 AM
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Remember we're here to talk about the equipment, not each other. If you feel somebody is out of line, report the post and don't take action yourself - it never leads anywhere productive. Some people didn't respect the warning I gave a few posts back. Posts deleted and thread bans.

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Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #105 of 109 Old 11-19-2010, 12:03 PM
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I own a 60u and an S1 and I definitely see that the blacks are not near as black as they were in the beginning (for example, on the S1 at first the black bezel and the black screen blended, now it's not even close, the 60u has a silver bezel). I'm still happy with the pictures on both though, I rarely sit there and stare at a blank black screen.

To the original poster, the graininess is either because of a bad source or faulty tv set, just getting a different brand won't solve the problem. Like I wrote before, I have an S1 and my pic is fine. Like another poster stated though, if you are looking at it from 1 or 2 inches away you will see graininess, if that bothers you he suggested you get an LCD. If you see it from regular viewing distances then it has to be one of the other issues.
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post #106 of 109 Old 11-19-2010, 02:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasingfiction View Post

I am curious about the starting Samsung black level readings. D-Nice says that he has seen them to be comparable to starting Panasonic levels yet CNET and Cleveland Plasma's readings seem to indicate that Panasonic still has the highest starting readings and that even after the rise they are higher than the competition. D-Nice has said that this might be b/c they are measuring them with the Cinema Smooth on but according to CNET the numbers were pretty high even before Cinema Smooth.

I guess I would still think that Panasonic was the best bang for your buck if the black levels were about the same or lower on Panasonics after the rise as they are on other brands.

D-Nice, do you think that Panasonic will still have this problem in 2011?

The Samsung plasmas I've had this year are a 50C7000 (converted to C8000 in SM), 50C450, 58C550, and 58C7000. So I've had four of them. I also had a Panny 50G25.

The Panny 50G25's when new (before the rise) seem to consistently measure around 0.007 fL.

I set my 50G25 next to my 58C550 and on a 0 IRE the black levels were indistinguishable. They looked virtually identical, and I would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Now on actual content, the 58C550 had nicer blacks than the G25, because the floating blacks on the G25 meant on a significant number of scenes, the G25 looked lighter than the C550. On some scenes they still looked identical, and every once in a while the Panny looked darker than the Samsung, but the majority of the time, if there was a difference, the Sammy looked darker. The actual shift in black levels from scene to scene is also mildly annoying on the Panasonic. So the annoying shift, plus lighter black levels on many scenes, equals no question a worse black level performance on the G25 as compared to the 58C550. The Panny G25 fresh out of the box compares a bit more favorably in comparison to my 50 inch C7000 which is not as deep as my 58's.

The 58 inch Samsungs have been measured by D-Nice, Chad, and others around 0.007 fL or so, give or take a thousandth. So my 58C550 looking identical on a 0 IRE to the G25 (there's no floating blacks on a 0 IRE) means they probably were in fact around 0.007 fL. I had four 2009 Samsung plasmas, and my four 2010 Samsungs are easily 2-3 times darker.

Now, when I got my 58C7000 I set it right next to the 58C550 and once again fed both a 0 IRE, via my HDMI splitter. No difference in black levels. Identical. The 58C7000 is likely around the commonly reported 0.007 fL level as well. Obviously I have not thrown a meter on any of them, but am just doing side by side comparisons and basing these guestimates upon what the common reported numbers are.

My 50C7000 fresh out of the box, had pretty disappointing blacks. Probably similar to those 0.019 fL numbers that some are quoting, or even higher. At any rate, similar to my last year's 2009 models, so you could imagine my disappointment. Well, I upgraded the FW, then I went into the SM and changed it to a C8000, but it was daylight when I did this. Then later at night when it got dark, I conducted some more tests, and the blacks were much darker, and much nicer than last year's B860's. So I don't know if it was the FW upgrade, or going into the SM to change it to a C8000 or what, but after I did these two steps the blacks darkened quite a bit, probably dropping in half. Of course when you enter the SM and then exit, your settings are all reset, and you have to re-enter them.

Some people have reported a glitch on their C7000/C8000 Samsungs which makes their black levels jump up. I think it was addressed in a recent FW release. I am not referring to Cinema Smooth, which everyone acknowledges increases the black levels. I am talking about a different glitch which if you do not reset, will leave your black levels higher even when Cinema Smooth is not engaged. There was some trick people discussed to reverse this glitch, but I forgot exactly what it was, and since the new FW has been released, I don't think people have to resort to using it anymore anyhow.

So it is entirely possible that CNET measured a 0.019 fL on their C7000 test sample. They could have experienced the glitch that some people have referred to. They should probably upgrade to the latest FW.

When I set my 50C7000 next to both my 58's, the 58's are visibly darker. D-Nice reports that he's been getting 0.009-0.010 fL on the 50's he's been calibrating, and more like 0.007 or so on the 58/63's.

It seems very plausible that this is the case with mine as well, since in a direct comparison side by side, my 50 is a couple of steps lighter than both my 58's. But it is still about twice as dark as my last year's 50B860's which were an estimated 0.020 - 0.025 fL. I believe it when the 58's measure around 3 times as dark (0.007 fL vs 0.021) that's about what it looks to my eyes.

At any rate, in a lights out darkened room, my 55C8000 LED easily has deeper blacks than my 58 inch plasmas, as long as you are watching near front and center, and the backlight is under 10. You really don't need your backlight above 5 or 6 in a dark room. Maybe 7 if you like a brighter picture. Anyway, of course the lower you turn your backlight down, the deeper the blacks get. It all comes down to how much subdued white highlights you can tolerate. The one downside with this edge-lit with precision dimming is that white text on a black background or star fields where there are little bright specks of white on a black background look kinda dull or subdued. You can crank the backlight to 15-20 and get bright white highlights, but then your black levels are not as impressive, and more like a Samsung plasma.

Of course, because of ABL on plasmas this is not an issue with majority of the screen or full screen whites. The edge-lits have no problems when the picture is brighter (higher-APL). The whites look much crisper and brighter than on the plasma. You tend to notice this on commercials, since many commercials feature all-white backgrounds. They look much more pleasing on the LED than on the plasma.

So anyway, if my 58 inch Sammy plazzys are around 0.007 fL, then with my backlight at 5 or 6 on my C8000, and the precision dimming engaged on standard, I have no qualms about saying that my C8000 has 8G Kuro blacks. It is very noticeably darker than my plasmas with all the lights off. Not just a thousandth or two, like 0.006 or 0.005, but probably half the black level of the plasma. The difference on the opening scenes of Master and Commander for example is very striking. It is not close. The C8000 easily bests the plasmas by a good margin.

Also, the LED has the advantage of going lights out on fades to black. The LED's shut off very rapidly, without any delay, so it is very nice. Commericals and other fades to black give you total blackness so that you cannot even tell that the TV is on. Even my Kuro could not accomplish this. In a darkened room, with my eyes adjusted, the Kuro would still look a dark gray compared to my B8500 and my two C8000's on fades to blacks. The plunge to complete blackness is a very nice touch.

Of course, there is a subtle waterfall (blooming-like) effect that can be seen if you know what to look for. I do not find it overly objectionable. It is similar to the blooming or haloing you get with a locally-dimmed LED. Mildly distracting, but not a total deal breaker.

Bottom line? I will put up with the occasional mild amount of waterfall effect as a result of the precision dimming, to get those deep dark Kuro like black levels. They are worth it when you compare the blacks with the Samsung plasmas.

The off-angle viewing still sucks big time on Sonys and Sammys, so if you can't ever sit front and center or swivel the TV toward you in the dark, then I guess you are stuck with PDP or get an LG with the horribly reflective screen and the minor banding issues.

Of course the C8000 LED smokes all plasmas for blacks/contrast during the brighter daytime too, so overall I can easily say that the C8000 LED has much better blacks than the 0.007 fL Samsung plasmas, no matter what time of the day or night. It's too bad I have to sacrifice a bit of size (55 vs. 58), but I like Samsung's best PQ LED vs. their PDP this year, just like last year the B8500 was easily better than the B860 (I had both side by side).

So Samsung's top of the line LED's are still their best TV, just as they advertise. Too bad the viewing angles suck just as much as ever, but this is only really an issue in the dim/dark. LG is going to walk all over Samsung if they can't figure out how to make the vieiwng angles better on their VA panels.

LG has already proven that you can have very deep blacks coupled with nice viewing angles on their LED. They just need to cut down on the banding, which I expect them to do next year, and design a half-way decent AR filter.

By the way, people are saying that Samsung finally got off their lazy arses and after several months fixed the stuttering with their AMP, especially with 24p. That was the reason I ditched my last C8000. Now that it's been fixed, I picked up a second. I haven't gotten around to testing it fully yet, but the problem does seem to have been addressed. The AMP seems to be working much more smoothly now, like it did the year before on the B8500. Except the artifacts have been reduced a great deal over last year's AMP.

Since the C8000 has deeper blacks than the Sammy plazzys, and the blacks don't rise when you watch 24p, and now the AMP works smoothly without the hiccups or stutter, the C8000 LED is the better 2D set--as it should be--since it is more expensive.

Oh, one other thing. The processing on my C8000 LED is visibly better than the processing on my C7000 plasmas, including the one which was converted to a C8000 in the SM. On the 2007 Kuro demo disc, much less moire and rainbow flickering on those tests with the checkered hat, and the striped shirt, etc.

The picture on the LED is just cleaner than the plasmas as well. It's soooooo nice and clean and crisp.

The C8000 LED, now that Samsung finally fixed the wonked AMP, is their best TV for 2010 (at least 2D). No buzz at all! No image retention! No line bleed! Crisp full screen or majority of screen whites! Deeper blacks! The downside is subdued bright white highlights on dim or black scenes, and white lettering on black backgrounds, star-fields. Also, mild water-fall effect or haloing. Only people that must sit a ways off to the side in the dark should go for the plasma. The Samsung plasmas are the best bang for the buck in 2010, however.

My cheapie 50C450 768p which was only $500 had blacks just as deep as the G25. The cheapie entry-level Samsungs have just as deep of blacks as the step-up models.
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post #107 of 109 Old 11-19-2010, 03:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RichiPuppy View Post

I know that on my TV that if I have the brightness too high I get the speckles on a black screen, but if I turn it down, so say below 70 they go away.

Yes, the first thing that person should do is turn their brightness down several clicks. If one is seeing dancing red and green pixels on an all black screen, they likely do not have their brightness setting at the correct level, and may need to lower it several clicks.
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post #108 of 109 Old 11-19-2010, 03:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

CNET measured .019 with CS off and .032 with CS on.

If you have a 2010 Samsung plasma that measures 0.019 fL, then you have one that is defective or is suffering from a glitch. You should not have black levels this light if your FW is upgraded to the latest. I have had four 2010's and the only one that had a problem was the 50 inch C7000 which obviously had a glitch and an early Fw version, but was quickly rectified when I upgraded the FW and went into the SM to change to C8000.

Just going into the SM rests all the picture settings, so if yours seems unnaturally high, just go into the SM and then exit right back out without touching anything, just to make sure the TV has been reset. It will come out of the SM in Dynamic mode, so you will have to switch it back into Movie mode. I think it will default to 54 or 55 brightness setting (can't recall exactly), you might want to lower it a few clicks to 50 just to make sure your brightness is not set too high.

If it still looks too light after this, then return it for a different one.

It is disingenuous to use the 0.019 fL figure as the benchmark for 2010 Samsung plasmas.

My little $500 50 inch 768p (50C450) has black levels approximately twice as deep as 0.019 fL.
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post #109 of 109 Old 11-19-2010, 03:26 PM
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50' 0.009-0.010fl/58' & 63' 0.007-0.008fl (C7000/C8000) see link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...5&postcount=24
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