Zero Black Level PDP Research - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 122 Old 11-26-2011, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I've been keeping an eye on it as it is very interesting IMO. The LG driving waveforms look very similar to Panasonic. The main (black level) reset/initialization waveform shape is very similar indeed. And as for the rest, Panasonic uses the selective reset while LG calls it "low voltage" reset.

The patents describing Panasonic's rising black levels give a great description of the rising and falling waveform of the reset and what its purpose is. A quick look at recent LG patents show they have similar waveform adjustments for temperature and APL.

I also noted in the thread that LG has tested a full plasma display panel without a reset waveform (zero black level) but the picture has too much misfiring pixels when this is done.

What's interesting is that while over adjusting the pots on my LG PG25 to achieve a lower MLL I've been able to duplicate some of Panasonics reported problems, green blobs and floating blacks which would lead one to believe that Panasonic are trying to adjust their panels to the lowest black level while LG are adjusting their sets to be within certain tolerance for trouble free operation, which is why some are reporting very acceptable blacks and others mediocre performance.

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post #62 of 122 Old 11-26-2011, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

Is there potential to do this, xrox, for any plasma manufacturer's models? I know my Panasonic can get a deeper black as evidenced by it flickering to a lower luminance level when loading a disc.

The LG sets seem to have pots that directly adjust the ramp up and ramp down of the initialization which make adjusting the black level possible. I have no idea if other sets have the same or similar service adjustments.

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post #63 of 122 Old 11-26-2011, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

What's interesting is that while over adjusting the pots on my LG PG25 to achieve a lower MLL I've been able to duplicate some of Panasonics reported problems, green blobs and floating blacks which would lead one to believe that Panasonic are trying to adjust their panels to the lowest black level while LG are adjusting their sets to be within certain tolerance for trouble free operation, which is why some are reporting very acceptable blacks and others mediocre performance.

That is essentially what my post is saying. Panasonic takes a dynamic adjustment approach to maximize contrast when possible while other manufacturers may use a standard high black level that provides pixel control under all circumstances (method #1). In reality LG probably uses a mix of both methods.

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post #64 of 122 Old 01-18-2012, 11:23 PM
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Interesting post to add on to why Plasma looks worse than LCD under ambient light or flash:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

LCD has color filters and polarizing layers that literally attenuate the incident light. Aside from front AR filters, light passing through the front glass of a PDP easily reflects off the barrier ribs, bus electrodes, phosphors and back of the cell. One way to improve this issue is to use black materials for cell strucutre (all manufacturers use some sort of black barrier rib coating). Unfortunately, any inclusion of black cell materials will reduce light output which PDP cannot afford to begin with.

10 lm/w or higher tech was supposed to provide the light output that would enable the use of black cell materials and a dark ND filter or color filters to give more of a LCD bright room look.

Panasonic actually has patents suggesting they want to put mirror like particles underneath the phosphors (bottom of cells) to increase light output. I would see this worsening the reflectance issue.

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post #65 of 122 Old 02-05-2012, 05:00 PM
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Just curious, as the VT50 will be arriving in a couple of months: Are there any new Panasonic patents regarding black level? Xrox I think you posted a couple of these patent links somewhere, but I can't recall what thread. I'm guessing this is a new method getting closer to Pioneer's CLEAR driving, as Panasonic has mentioned that the initial spark is smaller than ever.

Also wondering if this 3 section CEL using Sro instead of Mgo and a separate initialization cell (SIC) would ultimately be, in theory, the requirement for zero black. However, one of the previous posts in this thread said that sort of technology would be used for 4k.

I think this Sro material may be incorporated in 2013, but I can't see them using a SIC, since it has been said that there may be very noticeable results just switching to the new CEL material if it's incorporated the way Pioneer used it.

There isn't too much room for improvement from what I've seen now on the 500m, but it could definitely be blacker in about 5% of the material I've viewed on it. We're really splitting hairs, yet the luminance on a full black screen in clearly there.

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post #66 of 122 Old 02-06-2012, 03:26 AM
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500m is pretty much the best one can get. I think it would be very interesting though, to see a plasma with absolute blacks.
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post #67 of 122 Old 02-07-2012, 03:33 PM
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Just came across this Plasma Display Panel Drive Method Patent Application Publication by Panasonic published last week Date Feb.2, 2012

http://images3.freshpatents.com/pdf/US20120026142A1.pdf

Panasonic Patent US 20120026142-A1
"ABSTRACT

The luminance of black level in an image displayed on a plasma display panel is reduced to enhance the contrast and image display quality. For this purpose, in an initializing period, one of a forced initializing waveform, a selective initializing waveform, and a non-initializing waveform is applied to scan electrodes. Further, one field is formed of a special initializing subfield where the forced initializing waveform and then on-initializing waveform are selectively generated, and a plurality of selective initializing subfields where only the selective initializing waveform is generated. The number of forced initializing waveforms applied to one scan electrode is one in one field group. The non-initializing waveform is applied to the scan electrodes on both sides of the scan electrode applied with the forced initializing waveform in a special initializing subfield, in at least two special initializing subfields, i.e. the special initializing subfield and a special initializing subfield immediately succeeding the special initializing subfield."



Not too sure if there is new technology being applied, I will leave that to xrox.

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post #68 of 122 Old 02-07-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Just came across this Plasma Display Panel Drive Method Patent Application Publication by Panasonic published last week Date Feb.2, 2012

http://images3.freshpatents.com/pdf/US20120026142A1.pdf

Not too sure if there is new technology being applied, I will ll leave that to xrox.

What is interesting is that this headline followed on the 3rd of Feb.
Panasonic headed for record $10 billion anual loss
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81206P20120203

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post #69 of 122 Old 02-07-2012, 03:53 PM
 
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^The record loss doesn't have much to do with this thread, though it is a reason to place your bets on OLED at this juncture if you demand the best black level.
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post #70 of 122 Old 02-07-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^The record loss doesn't have much to do with this thread, though it is a reason to place your bets on OLED at this juncture if you demand the best black level.

Only by the fact that most are looking at Panasonic to carry the torch to come up with a lower MLL for plasma displays, Samsung and LG appear to be headed in other directions, aka OLED.

I'll take a look at their new published Patent but most of it may be all Greek to me, although I've learned a bit from the LG panel tweak thread with xrox's help.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1372479

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post #71 of 122 Old 02-08-2012, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Just came across this “Plasma Display Panel Drive Method” Patent Application Publication by Panasonic published last week Date Feb.2, 2012

http://images3.freshpatents.com/pdf/US20120026142A1.pdf

Panasonic Patent US 20120026142-A1
"ABSTRACT

The luminance of black level in an image displayed on a plasma display panel is reduced to enhance the contrast and image display quality. For this purpose, in an initializing period, one of a forced initializing waveform, a selective initializing waveform, and a non-initializing waveform is applied to scan electrodes. Further, one field is formed of a special initializing subfield where the forced initializing waveform and then on-initializing waveform are selectively generated, and a plurality of selective initializing subfields where only the selective initializing waveform is generated. The number of forced initializing waveforms applied to one scan electrode is one in one field group. The non-initializing waveform is applied to the scan electrodes on both sides of the scan electrode applied with the forced initializing waveform in a special initializing subfield, in at least two special initializing subfields, i.e. the special initializing subfield and a special initializing subfield immediately succeeding the special initializing subfield."



Not too sure if there is new technology being applied, I will leave that to xrox.

This is another one of those pulsing black patents that both Panasonic and LG are patenting over the last few years. I can only see this causing black noise issues so I'm not that fond of the idea in theory.

For example, earlier Panasonic patents claim a reduction in black level by pulsing the black level on and off. Since the black level is only on 1/2 or 1/3 of the time the integrated black level we perceive is reduced. They accomplish this by doing an all-cell reset/initialization only once every 2 or 3 frames. This causes flickering of black level.

This new patent is claiming they are going to spatially and temporally dither the black level based on scan electrode position and frame number in order to reduce the visible flicker. IMO instead of black level flicker you are going to see a linear temporal dither pattern in the black (even though they say you won't).

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post #72 of 122 Old 02-10-2012, 11:45 AM
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What would "black flicker" look like? It doesn't sound like it would be very perceptible. Does that mean in a scene with low or zero APL, the whole screen is flickering? That sounds hard to see. And if you dither that flicker instead of having the whole screen flicker at once, it sounds even harder to see.
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post #73 of 122 Old 02-10-2012, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NxNW View Post

What would "black flicker" look like? It doesn't sound like it would be very perceptible. Does that mean in a scene with low or zero APL, the whole screen is flickering? That sounds hard to see. And if you dither that flicker instead of having the whole screen flicker at once, it sounds even harder to see.

The proposed methods turn the black level on and off at a rate of 10Hz up to a max of 30Hz. At low APL I have no problem imagining this as noticeable and bothersome.

As for the dither proposal. Since an entire row of pixels is ignited all at once they can only dither in the vertical direction spatially IIUC. This means a moving pattern of horizontal lines.
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post #74 of 122 Old 02-11-2012, 04:54 AM
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Hi xrox - I've been able to lower mll on my Samsung 51" panel much the same way as the LGs by reducing the ramp-up time of the initialization pulse. However, the scan boards on the larger panels do not have any timing trim controls so I think they are also moving into the "active control of black levels" realm. I also agree that a pulsating mll would be a bad idea just to get good contrast numbers.

Another data point on floating blacks: Samsung (2011) mlls rise with APL. The mll doubles during high APL scenes.

Question on ITO (indium tin oxide): I've seen references in the firmware for the 59" and 64" panels to two different electrode structures, ITO and ITO-less. Can you comment on the pros/cons of the two different structures? Can they affect mll?
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post #75 of 122 Old 02-11-2012, 04:35 PM
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Thanks xrox- very helpful.

I wish the AVS Forum moderators would turn on the "Thank"-button feature.

Other forums using vBulletin have it and it's extremely useful.

That way I could have acknowledged my gratitude to xrox without having to make an actual post and waste everyone else's time.

But I believe the only thing worse than irritating everyone else with a useless post is letting xrox's contributions go unappreciated. And no, sending him a PM isn't the same as public recognition.
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post #76 of 122 Old 03-26-2012, 10:30 AM
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Will Kuro black levels be bested by the year 2020?
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post #77 of 122 Old 03-31-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Will Kuro black levels be bested by the year 2020?

Sure, since Samsung Amoled is 0.0034 cd/m2 same as Krp-500m monitor
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post #78 of 122 Old 05-10-2012, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Will Kuro black levels be bested by the year 2020?

It will be done when it will be worth it, and when the technology will permit it without huge production costs.

I don't think it's in any manufacturers plan to commercialize a 4000$ TV that no one will be able to afford at the present time (except a small niche of consumers).

Seeing the slack LG and Samsung leave on their black, I believe they would have no problem building a "Kuro-like" TV, but the price would be unattractive.
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post #79 of 122 Old 05-11-2012, 10:08 AM
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Why is it that you can have niche high cost cars but not niche high cost displays?
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post #80 of 122 Old 05-11-2012, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Why is it that you can have niche high cost cars but not niche high cost displays?

I guess the market wants it that way.

A Ferrari is a luxury product, it has prestige, built with noble materials.
I don't think you can do the same for a TV to be honest.

The average consumer will look at the overall performances and the design, not only the blacks. This is why Pioneer failed to continue producing Kuro's, too expensive to produce and not enough demand.

You can't blame peoples for not buying a 4000$ TV though, i wouldn't.
Even if it had diamonds in the bezel, the best blacks in the world, the most wonderful image. It's just not worth it, it's just a TV.

OLED will most certainly blast the Kuro's with much lower blacks, it's just not affordable to mass produce yet (i'm pretty sure a 40" OLED would be around 15.000$ now, if not more).

We do have the technology to make better blacks, LG does, Samsung does, Panasonic too does, they don't do it because it's not worth it. They would loose a lot of money trying.

Pioneer almost went bankrupt trying.
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post #81 of 122 Old 05-11-2012, 11:53 AM
 
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Samsung's 55" OLED will be unleashed for $9000 sometime this year (time will tell), and LG's below that.
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post #82 of 122 Old 05-11-2012, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Samsung's 55" OLED will be unleashed for $9000 sometime this year (time will tell), and LG's below that.

Thanks.

At that price, I believe it will only be available on special orders. I don't see retailers taking 20 of those and risking not selling them (2 or 3 at max in stock at most).

It's gonna be that expensive for at least the next 2-3 years, decreasing slowly.
And for it to be really affordable, I would guess 5 years.

Personally I can wait.

And we know for sure that OLED will blast anything (blackest blacks, best colors, etc..). So honestly, 5 years more doesn't bother me.
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post #83 of 122 Old 05-11-2012, 08:27 PM
 
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I'm ready ASAP actually. Life is short, so bring on the mass production and the panel that finally and truly beats the Kuro's black level (without some deceptive trickery). I've heard as low as $5000 for LG's model.
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post #84 of 122 Old 06-09-2012, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post


The proposed methods turn the black level on and off at a rate of 10Hz up to a max of 30Hz. At low APL I have no problem imagining this as noticeable and bothersome.


As for the dither proposal. Since an entire row of pixels is ignited all at once they can only dither in the vertical direction spatially IIUC. This means a moving pattern of horizontal lines.

Yes, moving horizontal lines is what I see on my VT50 and have been posting about. I 1st noticed it in a 0 stimulus but I can see it at higher ones (visually, I haven't used test patterns).

This is exactly what the VT50 is doing this year (and probably the other 50 series models). This new drive system has a lot of flicker and I see a loss of resolution in darker tones and some interesting anomalies on moving objects that are near black (or low APL). I made a post about it on HDJ. I'll copy and paste it in the VT50 thread here. More details on my observsation are over are HDJ.

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post #85 of 122 Old 06-09-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ertoil View Post


Sure, since Samsung Amoled is 0.0034 cd/m2 same as Krp-500m monitor

where did you get that number?

-SiGGy
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post #86 of 122 Old 06-10-2012, 02:08 AM
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Maybe he meant 0.0004. Wasn`t it d-nice that suceeded to produce that number? smile.gif
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post #87 of 122 Old 06-10-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surap View Post

Maybe he meant 0.0004. Wasn`t it d-nice that suceeded to produce that number? smile.gif

Ya, I should have been a bit more specific. I meant for the Samsung. I wasn't even thinking that would be bad for a Kuro wink.gif Even the VT50 this year beats that!

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post #88 of 122 Old 06-10-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Yes, moving horizontal lines is what I see on my VT50 and have been posting about. I 1st noticed it in a 0 stimulus but I can see it at higher ones (visually, I haven't used test patterns).
This is exactly what the VT50 is doing this year (and probably the other 50 series models). This new drive system has a lot of flicker and I see a loss of resolution in darker tones and some interesting anomalies on moving objects that are near black (or low APL). I made a post about it on HDJ. I'll copy and paste it in the VT50 thread here. More details on my observsation are over are HDJ.

Not only the 2012 Panasonic PDPs do this. This is obvious on their 2011 Neo-PDPs too and some people say it was already there in 2010. It is just getting more and more easy to spot, I suppose.

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #89 of 122 Old 06-17-2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

Not only the 2012 Panasonic PDPs do this. This is obvious on their 2011 Neo-PDPs too and some people say it was already there in 2010. It is just getting more and more easy to spot, I suppose.

huh, I never noticed it on my VT30. Perhaps once you pass a certain MLL it starts to show.

-SiGGy
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post #90 of 122 Old 05-20-2013, 02:32 PM
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So does anybody know what tech the 10G Pioneer was supposed to have. Apparently much blacker then the 9.5G even with Dnice's tweak :P:cool:
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