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post #91 of 122 Old 05-20-2013, 01:42 PM
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If D-Nice would have tweaked a 10g panel your tv would be a black hole and you'd get sucked inside your television.
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post #92 of 122 Old 05-21-2013, 01:38 AM
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0mll in other words hungro wink.gif

No but seriously but wasn't the 0MLL tech meant for the 11G Kuro ?
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post #93 of 122 Old 05-17-2014, 09:43 AM
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What ever happened to "kuro tech" bought from pioneer that panasonic acquired and was it implemented in the 2013 line ST,VT,ZT?
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post #94 of 122 Old 05-17-2014, 09:36 PM
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What ever happened to "kuro tech" bought from pioneer that panasonic acquired and was it implemented in the 2013 line ST,VT,ZT?

total speculation and rumour, but I think most of it never got used because it was too expensive to implement. if the market would have supported a 6k tv, we may have seen it

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post #95 of 122 Old 05-18-2014, 09:56 AM
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Strange panasonic would use a different mounting tech for the glass on panel like the ZT but not use that R&D money for kuro tech... If you're going to have a expensive display like the ZT why not just use kuro tech...By 2012 they could have gotten the kuro tech process down to a cheaper level to manufacture. Just unfortunate to lose such great tech. I for one dislike the look of OLED. Even after playing with a LG at best buy. Just doesnt look natural to my eye. Way things are going I doubt OLED is going to be mainstream like plasma was.
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post #96 of 122 Old 05-18-2014, 11:24 PM
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Strange panasonic would use a different mounting tech for the glass on panel like the ZT but not use that R&D money for kuro tech... If you're going to have a expensive display like the ZT why not just use kuro tech...By 2012 they could have gotten the kuro tech process down to a cheaper level to manufacture. Just unfortunate to lose such great tech. I for one dislike the look of OLED. Even after playing with a LG at best buy. Just doesnt look natural to my eye. Way things are going I doubt OLED is going to be mainstream like plasma was.

I don't think it's the r&d, it's that implementing it into the TV's was still very expensive. the zt60 is still about 2grand less than the kuro was. I don't know if it's the manufacturing, the materials, or what.
there has also been some changes to power regulations and stuff, so that could be a reason for some of it as well.

I'm sure they used the kuro stuff as a jumping off point, and tried to make it cheaper and more efficient, and the result is what we saw. I'm sure if Panasonic made a $6-8k plasma, it would have kicked the kuro's butt. but the market couldn't even support a $4k plasma...

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post #97 of 122 Old 05-19-2014, 08:30 AM
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I would really like to get to the bottom of this.None of it makes any sense. We could start to argue about prices all day. I then have to wonder about companies like Vertu making overtly expensive under performing phones. Really that's one of many examples. Lets break it down for a minute. Rich people know quality and will spend money. Well in the case of Vertu not so much but for the most part they do. Pioneer made high quality consumer and professional displays. Pioneer makes high quality products period. There is always a market for quality products. If there was no demand for plasma why are all of Panasonic's plasma TVs sold? Most of Samsung's stock of F8500s are sold as well. Even the "bottom of the barrel" 720p models are sold out. Ill jump ahead to OLED which doesn't seem to be as fervent as plasma was at the same stage. Most people don't even know or have seen OLED. They actually don't even realize their phone is OLED. This is a horrible industry of buzz words.Most people I have spoken to know or have seen "4K TV" They equate "4K TV" as a new display type. I would love to get to the bottom of Pioneer tech and Panasinic's plasma decision. Seems to be a Japanese thing for whatever reason. Honestly, the Koreans are full steam ahead with OLED and continuing plasma production.
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post #98 of 122 Old 05-19-2014, 09:08 AM
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I would really like to get to the bottom of this.None of it makes any sense.

For that, you'd have to talk to Panasonic. Doubt you'd get an answer
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We could start to argue about prices all day. I then have to wonder about companies like Vertu making overtly expensive under performing phones. Really that's one of many examples. Lets break it down for a minute. Rich people know quality and will spend money. Well in the case of Vertu not so much but for the most part they do. Pioneer made high quality consumer and professional displays.

Rich people, maybe. The majority doesn't. That's why so many CE companies are in trouble. They can't cater to the less than 5% and still stay in business.

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Pioneer makes high quality products period.
Pioneer sold off their plasma business and now is in talks to sell off their home electronics to Funai, and just hold onto the auto electronics portion.
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There is always a market for quality products. If there was no demand for plasma why are all of Panasonic's plasma TVs sold? Most of Samsung's stock of F8500s are sold as well. Even the "bottom of the barrel" 720p models are sold out.

Because plasma provides a better picture, at less cost to the consumer, and susequently, less profit to the CE manufacturer.

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Ill jump ahead to OLED which doesn't seem to be as fervent as plasma was at the same stage. Most people don't even know or have seen OLED. They actually don't even realize their phone is OLED. This is a horrible industry of buzz words. Most people I have spoken to know or have seen "4K TV" They equate "4K TV" as a new display type.

Moving from CRT to Plasma was different. The novelty of eliminating a big box and hanging a plasma on the wall as you would a picture, was very advantageous to the consumer, in addition to added resolution. 4K from 2K doesn't have the same impact, because the consumer already has their flatscreen hanging on the wall, or if not hanging, taking up less space in the room. So ne added benefit there, In addition, the increased resolution from 2k to 4k is realized by a) getting a much larger screen, or b) sitting closer. The WAF plays a large role in this, so many consumers aren't in a position to take advantage of the higher resolution, so the benefits are diminished. The CE manufacturers continue to push it because they want you to buy new TVs.

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I would love to get to the bottom of Pioneer tech and Panasinic's plasma decision. Seems to be a Japanese thing for whatever reason. Honestly, the Koreans are full steam ahead with OLED and continuing plasma production.
Panasonic, Sony, andSamsung have already pulled back from OLED (at least for now) because they are having manufacturing$$ issues that they they aren't having with 4K, and want to try and get their balance sheets in the black.

ISF Calibrator

Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD
Pioneer Kuro BDP-320

Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #99 of 122 Old 05-19-2014, 09:47 AM
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"Pioneer sold off their plasma business and now is in talks to sell off their home electronics to Funai, and just hold onto the auto electronics portion." Eww...I know Funai is huge but gross I will not be buying anytime soon. On the CE topic, explain Apple's success. They're products are at a premium and everday shlubs will line up to buy them. Did we forget about Bose and Bang & Olufsen? B&O sells rebranded TVs for a huge premium. They're still pumping along. I just dont get it. I hate to say corporate greed is the answer but it just might be. LED LCDs are easier to sell at a premium because of those "bright punchy colors" and higher profit margins.
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post #100 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 02:48 AM
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"Pioneer sold off their plasma business and now is in talks to sell off their home electronics to Funai, and just hold onto the auto electronics portion." Eww...I know Funai is huge but gross I will not be buying anytime soon. On the CE topic, explain Apple's success. They're products are at a premium and everday shlubs will line up to buy them. Did we forget about Bose and Bang & Olufsen? B&O sells rebranded TVs for a huge premium. They're still pumping along. I just dont get it. I hate to say corporate greed is the answer but it just might be. LED LCDs are easier to sell at a premium because of those "bright punchy colors" and higher profit margins.

the only thing I can suggest is that those companies don't compete with themselves. you want an apple computer to check emails and do basic wordprocessing, well then you have to spend 1000bux for one...

I'm not as familiar with bose or B&O, but I'm assuming it's the same thing, they simply don't make 'value oriented' products, so if you buy the name you gotta pay for it.

you simply can't sell an image if you make cheap products.

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post #101 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 06:00 AM
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"Pioneer sold off their plasma business and now is in talks to sell off their home electronics to Funai, and just hold onto the auto electronics portion." Eww...I know Funai is huge but gross I will not be buying anytime soon. On the CE topic, explain Apple's success. They're products are at a premium and everday shlubs will line up to buy them. Did we forget about Bose and Bang & Olufsen? B&O sells rebranded TVs for a huge premium. They're still pumping along. I just dont get it. I hate to say corporate greed is the answer but it just might be. LED LCDs are easier to sell at a premium because of those "bright punchy colors" and higher profit margins.

Did you really need to bring Apple into this discussion along with your clear anti Apple feelings? I guess I am just a dumb shlub who buys their products because they work - very well. Oppo is another one with its blu-ray players and just released headphones and headphone amp/dac. Apple is a great example of a CE company that has been an innovator (like them or not) and at the same time done a great job of insuring they will be around for a long time to come based on their cash reserves and continued financial performance, the latest quarter being a good example. Japan's economy has been struggling for a long time now, the yen has been high and many Japanese companies ignored what was happening around them - can you say South Korea. That is the problem and look for Sony to exit - sell off - the av line soon. The problems with these companies aren't just about LEDs being cheaper to sell at a premium - Sony's struggles are a great example that it is a lot deeper than that.

"Sony to sell AV line soon" would make for a more accurate headline on this site than Panasonic LED beats plasma for picture quality.
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post #102 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 07:35 AM
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Who is anti Apple? I mean "shlubs" as a candid way to address fanatics and people without the means to afford their products. If people are willing to spend $650-850 for a phone I think it makes a statement in the CE industry. iPads, macbooks etc.. premium products people are willing to spend on. Apple has no problem in any market so I was just stating facts. Sony has a lot of problems right now. I can definitely see them exiting the consumer AV biz. Every year there is a new gimmick. This year it's 4K. If Sony cant pull that off then they are probably done. We have to purchase "4k" bluray in the future and re purchase all of our favorite movies in "4K" (Star Wars).
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post #103 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 09:38 AM
 
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Panasonic is equally as likely to divulge their display business (they don't offer much in the way of audio products, sound bars maybe?). 4k has other benefits besides increased rez (that you can usually only notice from atypically short viewing distances, I'll admit) like a wider color gamut and higher frame rates (which should both introduce visual improvements no matter the distance), so I don't agree that gimmick applies here. Anything that increases PQ is welcome. I'm no fan of Apple's closed environment, but I admit that its simplicity and synchronicity are attractive to a lot of people.
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post #104 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 04:42 PM
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Who is anti Apple? I mean "shlubs" as a candid way to address fanatics and people without the means to afford their products. If people are willing to spend $650-850 for a phone I think it makes a statement in the CE industry. iPads, macbooks etc.. premium products people are willing to spend on. Apple has no problem in any market so I was just stating facts. Sony has a lot of problems right now. I can definitely see them exiting the consumer AV biz. Every year there is a new gimmick. This year it's 4K. If Sony cant pull that off then they are probably done. We have to purchase "4k" bluray in the future and re purchase all of our favorite movies in "4K" (Star Wars).

i think the other reason apple does so well is they are also selling the software ecosystem. that iphone is pretty pathetic if it didn't seamlessly connect to everything else apple. that's something that's hard to monetize, but they have been successful, and now have a broad enough market to make it a major selling point. 5-6yrs ago, i used to avoid apple products because they didn't cooperate well with my non-apple stuff. today, that's not as much a concern, and it can actually be seen as a selling point that if you also bought an apple computer, it'd make your iphone even better.

but again, i question how many ppl would spend 600 on a new iphone, if they could spend 200 on a new iphone. I'm curious what the iphone C model will do. i think that's the cheap one with the plastic body? they might be solid enough on the software to support cheaper hardware and still make a profit. but with most a/v companies, it's hard to use that ecosystem as a selling feature. are you really more likely to buy a sony tv because you own a sony bd player? i mean i bought my first ipod because i was using iTunes already. otherwise i may very well have bought a zune, or a handful of other generic mp3 players. there was nothing 'special' about the ipod's hardware for me. it was just that it worked better with what i already had. the closest things a/v manufacturers had to that was different versions of a system link, and i think a harmony remote pretty much rendered that whole idea moot.

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post #105 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 08:52 PM
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The only thing that can save OLED is Apple. They can produce a premium line of anything and people will buy it. They are the only hope against the price forever de-escalating sewer that is Least Common Denominator Television aka LCD!

The only thing worse than Korean LCD will be Chinese LCD.

Who can take it?

Could Godziila stop LCD?
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post #106 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 09:01 PM
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if anybody produces oled at comparable prices it will be saved. I'd buy any brand oled before I an edgelit led once plasma dies completely.

but sure, apple might be the push to get it over the hump. LG might not be able to sell oled's at 7k where apple probably could. I just want apple to do that grunt work, so somebody else can use their manufacturing plants to produce oleds that are a better value.

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post #107 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 09:41 PM
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Dear Apple, Please buy Pioneer Kuro Tech from Panasonic and take their Plasma tech as a bonus....Steve Jobs told Foxconn to pack sand or produce him a glass back on the iphone 4 in 3 weeks time! They did it no prob. Unfortunately, All Pioneers were made in Japan if I'm not mistaken which is rare when all of NA TVs come from Mexico. I wonder if we could get a Kuro made in China lol If it was from Apple it would still remain high quality.
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post #108 of 122 Old 05-20-2014, 10:21 PM
 
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This thread has officially landed in la-la land!
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post #109 of 122 Old 05-21-2014, 07:11 AM
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Yeah I steered her off course but your're welcome top bring her back ahead! I wish I knew where to find research about "zero black level for PDPs" but it seems moot at this point. Really we could just argue speculation about LG and Samsung battling it out. With Panasonic's TC-AX800u that is the wave of the future and I doubt OLED will even have a chance. If Panasonic can pull it off then why bother spending all that money for OLED? There is no point as they could have R&D existing plasma tech to be profitable. Would you R&D plasma and OLED or just improve on models like the TC-AX800u? Once they do Samsung will follow suit.
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Methinks you're overestimating the capability of the AX800u, an edgelit LCD with black levels worse than a VT/ZT60 to say nothing of the Kuros. Hopefully, LG disagrees with you because I see a 77" OLED in my (distant) future. Samsung is a nonentity to me (more so than last year with their brightness gimmicks) since they can't commercialize their OLED manufacturing ability with only 30% yields and instead insist on peddling mostly edgelit LCDs with curves so that you will hopefully ignore all the inherent picture quality deficiencies while being mesmerized by the curve.
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post #111 of 122 Old 05-21-2014, 11:28 AM
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the new panny led is not an oled killer...

the realization we need to come to, is that pq is no longer enough. the best TV's made keep killing their companies, or at least ending the production of that model. pioneer, Panasonic, sharp elite, all TV's that should have been tweaked and improved and produced for 10yrs or more, yet they're all gone now. what replaced them was not a 'successor', it was a cheaper model every time.

so why should anybody push oled? because it will easily be the best picture quality available. it has some issues currently, but the tech is young, and I'm hoping they can reduce those to a point it's less of a compromise than what we see on the market today. the unfortunate truth, is that doesn't matter anymore. Samsung has made a killing(well maybe not, but they've been successful enough to stay in business) off selling features and designs that have nothing to do with improving picture quality, and in many cases actually hurt it.

I'm just hoping oled will survive because it's sounds like LED, which is obviously the best technology ever created, but it's 'O' better. the newest technology is always the best right? I mean that's why 'LED tv's' are so much better than 'LCD tv's'...(and yes, this last part has been sarcastic)

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post #112 of 122 Old 05-21-2014, 12:43 PM
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"Pioneer sold off their plasma business and now is in talks to sell off their home electronics to Funai, and just hold onto the auto electronics portion." Eww...I know Funai is huge but gross I will not be buying anytime soon. On the CE topic, explain Apple's success. They're products are at a premium and everday shlubs will line up to buy them. Did we forget about Bose and Bang & Olufsen? B&O sells rebranded TVs for a huge premium. They're still pumping along. I just dont get it. I hate to say corporate greed is the answer but it just might be. LED LCDs are easier to sell at a premium because of those "bright punchy colors" and higher profit margins.

I can't say anything much about the US market, but in the UK Pioneer were not a high profile brand. If you'd asked random people on a street about their TVs you would probably have got many blank looks. It's difficult to establish a reputation. for quality if people don't even know who you are.

If you look at what Apple do, what car manufacturers, wristwatch manufacturers etc. do to build and sustain their brand images, it almost seems as though the TV manufacturers can't be bothered. It's not as if ordinary consumers are glued to CES each year.
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post #113 of 122 Old 05-21-2014, 01:20 PM
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I can't say anything much about the US market, but in the UK Pioneer were not a high profile brand. If you'd asked random people on a street about their TVs you would probably have got many blank looks. It's difficult to establish a reputation. for quality if people don't even know who you are.

If you look at what Apple do, what car manufacturers, wristwatch manufacturers etc. do to build and sustain their brand images, it almost seems as though the TV manufacturers can't be bothered. It's not as if ordinary consumers are glued to CES each year.

I never really got into the video side of things until after pioneer was out of the market, and I would agree with this. I did not know anything about pioneer. my brother had bought an hitachi RPTV a couple years previous, and afterwards I found out they were actually pretty good. Panasonic was the one I kind of turned my back on due to ignorance though. when I bought my first plasma I went for a Samsung because it was a brand I was familiar with, heard about, and thought was good. Panasonic was a company I bought cordless phones from, I thought nothing of them.

if you take the time to do the research, is very easy to see who is a great company, but if you don't, I think what you said is common everywhere. then again, it might have been different if I walked into a store and said I had 6k to spend, what's the best you have? instead of complaining that I could have bought a bigger CRT for less money two years ago, and these plasmas are such a rip off at 1000bux... haha


I do think Samsung, Sharp, maybe even LG are about as close to selling a brand as it gets in the tv game. I feel like they have the most commercials, make the most outlandish claims(yellow subpixel?), and have the most market recognition from the common person.

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post #114 of 122 Old 07-05-2014, 11:36 PM
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The REAL reason that Panasonic didn't use the Pioneer patents was behind closed doors Hollywood made them an offer they couldn't refuse!

If you can sell a plasma that is better than the legendary Pioneer Kuros--then what's the point in ever going to the movie theater?


The biggest lie that is ever told around here is that all the products on planet Earth can have premium price points but it is impossible for that to happen when it comes to TVs.


Who believes that garbage?!


LCD is proof positive that markets can be created--fixed--and controlled--you can get people to like the inferior.


That is very frightening!
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post #115 of 122 Old 07-22-2014, 09:40 PM
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In a capitalist market, money often wins.. Whether or not some back-room deal took place, LCDs are cheaper to manufacture, and the ever-decreasing (relative) income of the middle class dictates lower cost items if you want to continue to be profitable.. Most consumers don't care in the same way that AVS members do; they want big screens for few dollars, and don't know better (or don't care) -- sad, really.
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post #116 of 122 Old 07-23-2014, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pimpology26 View Post
Who is anti Apple? I mean "shlubs" as a candid way to address fanatics and people without the means to afford their products. If people are willing to spend $650-850 for a phone I think it makes a statement in the CE industry. iPads, macbooks etc.. premium products people are willing to spend on. Apple has no problem in any market so I was just stating facts. Sony has a lot of problems right now. I can definitely see them exiting the consumer AV biz.
I would much rather Apple buy all of Sony's consumer electronics business than buying Beats. One wonders what it would cost for Apple to take over Sony's brand and just market all of it under a "Sony by Apple" brand or something like that. Apple still has over $150B cash in the bank, so it's not unthinkable.

It's been said many times, but I think the reality was that Plasma was never going to be as cheap as LCD/LED to manufacture, and that's what ultimately did them in. If they could've found a way to compete on price, they would've done so. Realistically, the marketplae for a really high-end premium set -- like a 2014 equivalent of the Kuro -- is probably less than 1% of the market, and just too minor for most companies to even think about. They're too busy trying to make a profitable $500 set for Costco, Walmart, and Best Buy.
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post #117 of 122 Old 07-24-2014, 08:55 PM
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The REAL reason that Panasonic didn't use the Pioneer patents was behind closed doors Hollywood made them an offer they couldn't refuse!

If you can sell a plasma that is better than the legendary Pioneer Kuros--then what's the point in ever going to the movie theater?


The biggest lie that is ever told around here is that all the products on planet Earth can have premium price points but it is impossible for that to happen when it comes to TVs.


Who believes that garbage?!


LCD is proof positive that markets can be created--fixed--and controlled--you can get people to like the inferior.


That is very frightening!
Now that's just ridiculous and preposterous.
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post #118 of 122 Old 07-30-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post
The REAL reason that Panasonic didn't use the Pioneer patents was behind closed doors Hollywood made them an offer they couldn't refuse!

If you can sell a plasma that is better than the legendary Pioneer Kuros--then what's the point in ever going to the movie theater?


The biggest lie that is ever told around here is that all the products on planet Earth can have premium price points but it is impossible for that to happen when it comes to TVs.


Who believes that garbage?!


LCD is proof positive that markets can be created--fixed--and controlled--you can get people to like the inferior.


That is very frightening!
Really Art? Some giant conspiracy?
Nah, just simple economics. The demand wasn't there for deeper blacks.
For the average consumer, even for some discerning videophiles black levels aren't the be all and end all of the total experience.

In fact I'd be willing to bet we enjoy the movie experience more for the giant screens. Black levels would be way down the list
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post #119 of 122 Old 08-27-2014, 04:10 AM
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Will someone please answer this question?

Why is it that audio components can be produced at atmospheric prices and those companies stay in business even if they don't produce many of those products but it is IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen with TVs?

I'll never buy the line many times repeated around here about how it was IMPOSSIBLE for anyone--Pioneer included to produce expensive plasmas.

Every other product on planet Earth can have atmospheric price points but plasma can't? Who buys that garbage?

Same old Industry supporting machine alive and well here at AVS!
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post #120 of 122 Old 08-28-2014, 11:19 PM
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Hi guys,

Apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong section. I have an Elite PRO-111FD that I bought in 2008 and I recently moved from Xfinity to Direct TV. My HD channels in 1080i are now giving me the "Soap Opera" effect and it's incredibly frustrating. The main reason I bought this TV and have stuck with it for the last six years is because of the awesome movement at 600Hz. No settings were changed on the TV itself and I'm using the same input and HDMI cable. The TV hooked up to a Direct TV Genie Mini (wired) and I'm running the coax though a Furman SPR-20i.

Any thoughts?
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