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post #121 of 147 Old 08-31-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post
Will someone please answer this question?

Why is it that audio components can be produced at atmospheric prices and those companies stay in business even if they don't produce many of those products but it is IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen with TVs?

I'll never buy the line many times repeated around here about how it was IMPOSSIBLE for anyone--Pioneer included to produce expensive plasmas.

Every other product on planet Earth can have atmospheric price points but plasma can't? Who buys that garbage?

Same old Industry supporting machine alive and well here at AVS!
This is easy to explain. The big buck esoteric audio components you're referring to are mostly smoke and mirrors. They're selling the same or a very similar product to the mainstream guys with an incredible markup for the perceived performance their brand portrays. In the case of displays, the sort of high end displays you're wishing for actually have to be better. This costs money to develop & engineer and the parts that go into the set are more expensive too. As it turns out you can't recoup that money in the price of the product.
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post #122 of 147 Old 08-31-2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
This is easy to explain. The big buck esoteric audio components you're referring to are mostly smoke and mirrors. They're selling the same or a very similar product to the mainstream guys with an incredible markup for the perceived performance their brand portrays. In the case of displays, the sort of high end displays you're wishing for actually have to be better. This costs money to develop & engineer and the parts that go into the set are more expensive too. As it turns out you can't recoup that money in the price of the product.
It's also important to note that building audio amplifiers is easy - relatively speaking. It's just electronics assembly.

Building plasma display panels is an extremely complicated multi-step process, requiring $100mn+ factories, a huge workforce, years of research and development, etc.
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post #123 of 147 Old 12-23-2014, 10:24 AM
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RE:

When it was announced that Panasonic bought the patents to the Kuro back in 2009 (no, it wasn't just a rumor if you do your research), it was then assumed by many that the next generation of Panasonic plasmas would essentially be a next-generation Kuro in a Panasonic housing. The Panasonic reps never stated that this would happen, but they did state when questions at award shows that their newer sets incorporate some of that Kuro technology into their panels. Although just exactly what that technology was, I'm not quite sure. I remember hearing this from the VT25 model all the way up to the final VT60/ZT60 line. Also, some of the old Pioneer engineers who developed the Kuro also worked on the later Panasonics. This was always good to know, but it didn't necessarily mean that they were basically cloning the Kuros as we all found out over the last few years of Panasonic's PDP production life.

I'm pretty sure there is no conspiracy that Hollywood forced Panasonic to not implement Kuro technology because it would harm theater sales. In fact, I'm going to say that's a pretty ridiculous theory. Panasonic didn't implement the technology in full because it was expensive and therefore not in their best interest in terms of creating more revenue. That's pretty simple.

Pioneer had achieved zero-black with their Extreme Contrast Concept, but it was only in its prototype stages. I remember one article that had a Pioneer rep stating that we'd have to wait for the 11G sets in order to see this technology implemented. Of course, that never happened either.

Now, all we can do is imagine about what could have been...
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post #124 of 147 Old 12-23-2014, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by alettiere View Post
When it was announced that Panasonic bought the patents to the Kuro back in 2009 (no, it wasn't just a rumor if you do your research), it was then assumed by many that the next generation of Panasonic plasmas would essentially be a next-generation Kuro in a Panasonic housing. The Panasonic reps never stated that this would happen, but they did state when questions at award shows that their newer sets incorporate some of that Kuro technology into their panels. Although just exactly what that technology was, I'm not quite sure. I remember hearing this from the VT25 model all the way up to the final VT60/ZT60 line. Also, some of the old Pioneer engineers who developed the Kuro also worked on the later Panasonics. This was always good to know, but it didn't necessarily mean that they were basically cloning the Kuros as we all found out over the last few years of Panasonic's PDP production life.

I'm pretty sure there is no conspiracy that Hollywood forced Panasonic to not implement Kuro technology because it would harm theater sales. In fact, I'm going to say that's a pretty ridiculous theory. Panasonic didn't implement the technology in full because it was expensive and therefore not in their best interest in terms of creating more revenue. That's pretty simple.

Pioneer had achieved zero-black with their Extreme Contrast Concept, but it was only in its prototype stages. I remember one article that had a Pioneer rep stating that we'd have to wait for the 11G sets in order to see this technology implemented. Of course, that never happened either.

Now, all we can do is imagine about what could have been...
I have 2 Pioneer 101s. the last generation of Pioneer PDP's (2008 9.5Gs ) , I have them both tweaked to 0 black levels , Pioneer was very close to 0 MLL for PDPs ,to bad they bailed out , or no one took up the fight . I hope OLED can survive and improve PQ in later generations .
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post #125 of 147 Old 12-23-2014, 01:00 PM
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RE:

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I have 2 Pioneer 101s. the last generation of Pioneer PDP's (2008 9.5Gs ) , I have them both tweaked to 0 black levels , Pioneer was very close to 0 MLL for PDPs ,to bad they bailed out , or no one took up the fight . I hope OLED can survive and improve PQ in later generations .
I used to own a 151 but sold it when I could still get 4K out of it due to financial need at that time. However, I also didn't realize in 2009 (when I sold it), that it would be the reference for many years to come. I just assumed Panasonic would surpass it in a couple of years. Biggest mistake I've ever made with A/V purchases.

Thought about going back and getting a couple used Kuros for my living room and bedroom, but with absolutely no option to warranty them (with the exception of a two year SquareTrade via eBay), I was never comfortable enough to shell out for shipping a used TV that could potentially have problems that I'd be stuck paying for out of pocket in the future.

I settled on two VT60s that are well secured until 2019. A 55 in the bedroom and 65 in the living room. They are great sets once calibrated properly. The only two things that really make me miss the Kuro in comparison is the Panasonic's sensitivity to IR and the occasional appearance of some subtle DFC here and there. I used to treat my Kuro like an LCD. I'd just throw up whatever I wanted on the screen and never gave it a second thought. With the Panasonic, I have to be very careful.

Then again, my old 151 had horrible DSE that could be pretty ugly at times. So each have their pros and cons, I guess.
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post #126 of 147 Old 12-23-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by alettiere View Post
I used to own a 151 but sold it when I could still get 4K out of it due to financial need at that time. However, I also didn't realize in 2009 (when I sold it), that it would be the reference for many years to come. I just assumed Panasonic would surpass it in a couple of years. Biggest mistake I've ever made with A/V purchases.

Thought about going back and getting a couple used Kuros for my living room and bedroom, but with absolutely no option to warranty them (with the exception of a two year SquareTrade via eBay), I was never comfortable enough to shell out for shipping a used TV that could potentially have problems that I'd be stuck paying for out of pocket in the future.

I settled on two VT60s that are well secured until 2019. A 55 in the bedroom and 65 in the living room. They are great sets once calibrated properly. The only two things that really make me miss the Kuro in comparison is the Panasonic's sensitivity to IR and the occasional appearance of some subtle DFC here and there. I used to treat my Kuro like an LCD. I'd just throw up whatever I wanted on the screen and never gave it a second thought. With the Panasonic, I have to be very careful.

Then again, my old 151 had horrible DSE that could be pretty ugly at times. So each have their pros and cons, I guess.

Sorry, could you elaborate on what you mean by 'Subtle DFC.'

I also have the 65VT60 but never owned one of the Elite Kuros. How close is the Panny when it comes to overall PQ of your previous Kuro? I was also curious as to which of the two sets you prefer for OTA/ cable 1080i and 720p tv content. My VT60 isn't as good as another older Sammy plasma I own and I've always wondered how good the Kuros were in this regard.
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post #127 of 147 Old 12-23-2014, 06:18 PM
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Sorry, could you elaborate on what you mean by 'Subtle DFC.'

I also have the 65VT60 but never owned one of the Elite Kuros. How close is the Panny when it comes to overall PQ of your previous Kuro? I was also curious as to which of the two sets you prefer for OTA/ cable 1080i and 720p tv content. My VT60 isn't as good as another older Sammy plasma I own and I've always wondered how good the Kuros were in this regard.
It's really hard to say without a side-by-side comparison. Plus, I never had my 151 calibrated. I just used Pure mode out of the box, which was nice, but is kind of the equivalent of THX Cinema in that it's an acceptable mode, but somewhat subdued in comparison to what you can get in the Pro/ISF modes.

I always thought the Kuro did a little better job handling poorly sourced content, but that could just be my memory playing tricks on me.

DFC (Dynamic False Contouring) example from an ST60 thread. Observe on the right how the brightness/glowing kind of breaks up. It has always been an issue with the Panasonics, unfortunately. I'll catch it on a sunset/sunrise shot every now and then.

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post #128 of 147 Old 12-24-2014, 05:37 AM
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alettiere...Excellent image examples. I was wondering if this was a Panasonic thing. And it seems it is.
Panasonics black levels are first rate...However, as the example images show, the pastel shades of colours and colours in dark areas get hyped to be over exaggerated!
I've not noticed much DFC, however?
Not sure why Panasonics do this? Poor processors?
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post #129 of 147 Old 12-24-2014, 08:17 AM
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alettiere...Excellent image examples. I was wondering if this was a Panasonic thing. And it seems it is.
Panasonics black levels are first rate...However, as the example images show, the pastel shades of colours and colours in dark areas get hyped to be over exaggerated!
I've not noticed much DFC, however?
Not sure why Panasonics do this? Poor processors?
I'm not sure why Panasonics do this. I believe it's less prominent on the higher-end models than it is the lower-end. I had an ST60 for awhile and noticed it more on there than I do on my VT60. I just assumed this was to the VT/ZT models having a slightly better gradient, but who knows.

It's something that rarely gets mentioned in professional reviews and just something that I've learned to live with, since I don't catch it very often.

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post #130 of 147 Old 12-24-2014, 12:38 PM
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It's a shame with such good black level performance. It is much the same story on the lower end Panasonic plasmas. I used a grade 1 broadcast crt which showed this issue. The only plasma panel that produced colours near to my reference was an old sony alis plasma panel, black levels were not great on the sony plasma
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post #131 of 147 Old 12-27-2014, 06:10 AM
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The appearance of dynamic false contours is often part of a power/energy saving strategy. A similar effect can sometimes be seen on 9G Kuros when set to Energy Save Mode 2.
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post #132 of 147 Old 12-30-2014, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
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The appearance of dynamic false contours is often part of a power/energy saving strategy. A similar effect can sometimes be seen on 9G Kuros when set to Energy Save Mode 2.
DFC is a result of non-contiguous sub field driving. AFAIK pioneer has always used contiguous regardless of power mode.

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I read somewhere that in power saving modes they drop down to half the number of subfields, if that is dynamically managed you could probably notice contours appearing and disappearing as content changes (varying power demand) but that is all speculation on my part, I never had free access to play with the Pioneers but I also never noticed DFC on them either.

After all the years they made plasmas it surprises me that noone made subfield driving user programmable, the user has little or no control over the refresh rate, the color depth and the dithering sequences. It took a long time and some unorthodox methods to make the image on my Panasonics resemble a CRT even though they are capable of such images it's not a plug and play solution.

It's pretty sad that people are suffering with these issues on last generation plasmas when it's only a stupid software at the heart of the problem and it could be fixed without changing one piece of hardware.
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post #134 of 147 Old 12-31-2014, 08:44 AM
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It is a shame. My old sony plasma has the best near crt image i've ever seen. However, you could not view it in a dark room, as black level is poor, but good in normal ambient lighting. I have a Hitachi plasma with the same plasma panel as the sony and it's image quality is very poor in comparison. It would be great if i could lift the video processor from the sony and install it into the Panasonic as it does seem like processors are make or break in plasma imaging. Although, with regards black level, i think it is all down to the quality of the plasma panel itself.
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post #135 of 147 Old 12-31-2014, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I read somewhere that in power saving modes they drop down to half the number of subfields, if that is dynamically managed you could probably notice contours appearing and disappearing as content changes (varying power demand) but that is all speculation on my part, I never had free access to play with the Pioneers but I also never noticed DFC on them either.
DFC on plasmas is a motion artifact. Nothing to do with too few subfields. Pioneer uses contiguous subfields in its CLEAR driving method and this method is free of DFC.

What you are describing is false contouring (FC).

Note: Pioneer uses halftoning, error diffusion, dithering to generate all gray levels and this can also be an advantage against simple FC as well.

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post #136 of 147 Old 12-31-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by alettiere View Post

DFC (Dynamic False Contouring) example from an ST60 thread. Observe on the right how the brightness/glowing kind of breaks up. It has always been an issue with the Panasonics, unfortunately. I'll catch it on a sunset/sunrise shot every now and then.


Yeah, looks like regular false contouring, which I believe is caused by limited gradation steps from black to white.
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post #137 of 147 Old 12-31-2014, 07:03 PM
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DFC on plasmas is a motion artifact. Nothing to do with too few subfields. Pioneer uses contiguous subfields in its CLEAR driving method and this method is free of DFC.

What you are describing is false contouring (FC).

Note: Pioneer uses halftoning, error diffusion, dithering to generate all gray levels and this can also be an advantage against simple FC as well.
Is this DFC common on Samsungs as well or is it just a Panasonic thing?
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post #138 of 147 Old 12-31-2014, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Is this DFC common on Samsungs as well or is it just a Panasonic thing?
Aside from Pioneers driving method that eliminates the possibility of DFC, the same artifact can also be reduced by altering the subfields weights to compensate for the viewers eye movement during motion. I know Panasonic has patents on this method but I'm not sure whether they are in products?

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post #139 of 147 Old 01-01-2015, 09:48 AM
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I have seen discrete lines of separation between different shades of black/gray during some dark scenes on my VT60's. The transition from light to dark/dark to light was not smooth. Would that be considered DFC?
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post #140 of 147 Old 01-01-2015, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I have seen discrete lines of separation between different shades of black/gray during some dark scenes on my VT60's. The transition from light to dark/dark to light was not smooth. Would that be considered DFC?
DFC is only present when your eyes track motion on a PDP. If you see this artifact on still or paused images then it is not DFC and probably just banding/posterization.

Posterization can be present in the signal or generated by the display.

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post #141 of 147 Old 01-01-2015, 09:52 PM
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It is a shame. My old sony plasma has the best near crt image i've ever seen. However, you could not view it in a dark room, as black level is poor, but good in normal ambient lighting. I have a Hitachi plasma with the same plasma panel as the sony and it's image quality is very poor in comparison. It would be great if i could lift the video processor from the sony and install it into the Panasonic as it does seem like processors are make or break in plasma imaging. Although, with regards black level, i think it is all down to the quality of the plasma panel itself.
This is exactly how I feel about my VT60 but only in the case of 1080i and 720p tv content. Samsungs video processing is superior in this instance. TV content looks noticeably crisper and better on my 4 year old Sammy plasma.

I've always wondered if this is where Panasonic cut corners to keep their cost and prices down. Scaling and de-interlacing is often overlooked by most which shouldn't be the case because the majority of people spend more time on OTA/ Cable channels than native 1080p content.
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If you looked at their hardware you would never say Panasonic cuts corners but the software can really makes you scratch your head fortunately their software is neither buggy or even slow but that's about it. I kind of wish Sony would have stepped in and rebadged some later plasmas but for some reason they have rejected plasma technology altogether.
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post #143 of 147 Old 02-20-2015, 06:11 PM
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Current champ is Kuro tweaked but the OLED has major motion problems. Good luck with that.

The last line of defense for plasma fanatics. The only reason for defeat was companies actually have to make money from the products they sell. Damn.
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Current champ is Kuro tweaked but the OLED has major motion problems. Good luck with that.
so i have at 65vt60 in the living room and love it. grabbed a 65hu8550 for the bedroom and i am not pleased and will be taking it back to the store. Was looking at getting another plasma for the bedroom as that was where the hu8550 was going. found a local seller getting rid of a pdp-6010fd for $900 including the wall mount for that beast. Was going tuesday to check it out? think its a good idea? i mean a 7 year old panel still reigning supreme? should i just throw up a pure white slide and inspect for IR and a black slide for dead pixels? any other recommendations would be appreciated!! long live plasma!!!!
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so i have at 65vt60 in the living room and love it. grabbed a 65hu8550 for the bedroom and i am not pleased and will be taking it back to the store. Was looking at getting another plasma for the bedroom as that was where the hu8550 was going. found a local seller getting rid of a pdp-6010fd for $900 including the wall mount for that beast. Was going tuesday to check it out? think its a good idea? i mean a 7 year old panel still reigning supreme? should i just throw up a pure white slide and inspect for IR and a black slide for dead pixels? any other recommendations would be appreciated!! long live plasma!!!!
A 6010 is an 8G Kuro , not as good as the 9Gs, but a very nice display

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so i have at 65vt60 in the living room and love it. grabbed a 65hu8550 for the bedroom and i am not pleased and will be taking it back to the store. Was looking at getting another plasma for the bedroom as that was where the hu8550 was going. found a local seller getting rid of a pdp-6010fd for $900 including the wall mount for that beast. Was going tuesday to check it out? think its a good idea? i mean a 7 year old panel still reigning supreme? should i just throw up a pure white slide and inspect for IR and a black slide for dead pixels? any other recommendations would be appreciated!! long live plasma!!!!
A 6010 is an 8G Kuro , not as good as the 9Gs, but a very nice display
Only down side between the two from my research is .003 ft-L in black and the 8g is tweak able where the 9g only the elites are, plus the 8g weren't as affected by the reddish black phenomenon?

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