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View Poll Results: Will plasma always be top dog
I "think" LED/LCD will be better than plasma one day ( overall qualities ) 0 0%
I "think" Plasma will always be better ( overall qualities ) 0 0%
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post #1 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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This war has been going on for a while and plasma has pretty much always had an edge. Not always huge, but always an edge.

I was thinking about this the other day. LCD/LED has been competing against plasma for about 6 years, plasma has been around "at fair pricing" for lets say 9 years. With LED/LCD taking a huge step back this year in quality since almost all local dimming LED's are glossy, Samsung not being able to make local dimming LED's due to there lawsuit with Sharp, I think it "may" be safe to say that LED/LCD may never be as good as a plasma. In fact the next technology will wipe them out at the same time........ ( I will admit last year with the 55LH90 and Samsung UN55B8500 they where close to plasma, but man did they take some giant steps backwards. )

Another point I was thinking about, making plasma so hard to beat, is that plasma is lit at each individual pixel. With LED/LCD being zone lit or edge lit there is no question what is better.

What do you guys think?
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post #2 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

This war has been going on for a while and plasma has pretty much always had an edge. Not always huge, but always an edge.

I was thinking about this the other day. LCD/LED has been competing against plasma for about 6 years, plasma has been around "at fair pricing" for lets say 9 years. With LED/LCD taking a huge step back this year in quality since almost all local dimming LED's are glossy, Samsung not being able to make local dimming LED's due to there lawsuit with Sharp, I think it "may" be safe to say that LED/LCD may never be as good as a plasma. In fact the next technology will wipe them out at the same time........ ( I will admit last year with the 55LH90 and Samsung UN55B8500 they where close to plasma, but man did they take some giant steps backwards. )

Another point I was thinking about, making plasma so hard to beat, is that plasma is lit at each individual pixel. With LED/LCD being zone lit or edge lit there is no question what is better.

What do you guys think?

1) Plasma will maintain its lead as long as mfg's are willing to invest in the technology.

2) I am pretty sure samsung has local dimming LED's on the market right now...??? am I mistaken?
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post #3 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:20 PM
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That is an excellent question. I think either could be better. The real question to me is which one can maximise the most out of their respective technologies and still keep the price down to a level that consumers will pay. I don't think LED's can eliminate all their issues and do this.

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #4 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvin35 View Post

That is an excellent question. I think either could be better. The real question to me is which one can maximise the most out of their respective technologies and still keep the price down to a level that consumers will pay. I don't think LED's can eliminate all their issues and do this.

I think with time they can. Look how far LCD/LED tech has come in five years...same for Plasma.

If for example mfg's quit investing in plasma tech it would only take a few years for LED based tech to overtake it in most areas if not all. Hell even LCD/LED tech has gotten better at handling motion, something I wasn't sure they could do a few years ago. Granted I'd still rather watch sports on my plasma, but they have come quite a long way in recent years.

But I think in general Plasma offers a better platform, better basic technology to provide lifelike picture and movement unlike LED which must be SUBSTANTIALLY compensated with processing.
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post #5 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:26 PM
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Isn't OLED supposed to be the next "BIG" thing when they fix the current problems with the tech:
1) small screens
2) EXPENSIVE
3) blue (I think) burns out quickly


Barring the implosion of the FRN and the subsequent world-wide economic meltdown we'll have better TV's year after year with emerging technologies giving everyone something to talk about. For now, my Panny 65V10 will have to do.
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post #6 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvin35 View Post

That is an excellent question. I think either could be better. The real question to me is which one can maximise the most out of their respective technologies and still keep the price down to a level that consumers will pay. I don't think LED's can eliminate all their issues and do this.

^^^Thats the whole catch, LED/LCD has many issues.

Samsung has no local dimming LED's, due to Sharp winning a lawsuit. They do have pin point dimming which is not so good.

---Another point to make is all LED's are going to glossy screens in their hi end models. The new 3D Vizio that just came out has a glossy screen, therefor only leaving Sony's with an non-gloss screen in the local dimming area.
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post #7 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:32 PM
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I think the physical limitations of LCD and LED LCD TV screen technology and construction will keep it from performing as well as Plasma. They're getting closer, but the technology has inherent issues and limitations that probably can not be overcome.

Kinda like how a front wheel drive car cannot handle as well as a rear wheel drive car (and i've won several SCCA regional Street Prepared autocross championships in both types of car). Both were very quick and tossable, but i could do more with the RWD car.

If everybody stopped making Plasmas next year, i suppose i could live with a backlit LED LCD TV, but it would be like when i had to live with VHS recorders when Betamax started to go away. Betamax was better, but i got used to the lower quality of VHS.

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post #8 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

I think with time they can. Look how far LCD/LED tech has come in five years...same for Plasma.

If for example mfg's quit investing in plasma tech it would only take a few years for LED based tech to overtake it in most areas if not all. Hell even LCD/LED tech has gotten better at handling motion, something I wasn't sure they could do a few years ago. Granted I'd still rather watch sports on my plasma, but they have come quite a long way in recent years.

But I think in general Plasma offers a better platform, better basic technology to provide lifelike picture and movement unlike LED which must be SUBSTANTIALLY compensated with processing.

I totally agree with you regarding plasma having a better platform. Not having a backlight and having everything happen at the individual pixel level is a huge advantage. I've had my 101fd for 7 months now and it is blowing me away as I type this.

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #9 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I think the physical limitations of LCD and LED LCD TV screen technology and construction will keep it from performing as well as Plasma. They're getting closer, but the technology has inherent issues and limitations that probably can not be overcome.

Kinda like how a front wheel drive car cannot handle as well as a rear wheel drive car (and i've won several SCCA regional Street Prepared autocross championships in both types of car). Both were very quick and tossable, the i could do more with the RWD car.

Fellow SCCAer?
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post #10 of 85 Old 12-12-2010, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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post #11 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 05:48 AM
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Plasma will always win bang/buck unless the room is brightly lit.
Come on, you can get a 1ts tier brand 50" plasma for around $700, any LCD that size for $700 would be a 3rd tier brand.
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post #12 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

Plasma will always win bang/buck unless the room is brightly lit.

I dunno, that seems to be changing with so many of the current higher-end LCD and LED LCD sets now coming with very reflective glossy screens. I've looked at a bunch of em in stores over the past year and they are reflecting the stores overhead lights and shelves and other stuff in the backround much more than what i'm seeing on the higher end Plasmas such as the G25, VT25, C7000, C8000. All the current Plasmas are very bright and the newer AR Filters on the higher models are pretty effective at muting reflections in a bright room.

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post #13 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 07:55 AM
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I think plasma is gonna be winning this war as long as nothing changes in LCD tech... of course you are asking on the plasma section and Documaker, DP, etc.. haven't weighed in yet...
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post #14 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 08:06 AM
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Nice topic and i voted in favor of the plasma panel...

Love,
kris.

God Is With You !
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post #15 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 08:38 AM
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Until LED/LCD can playback movies without blur, and without making them look flat with 120/240hz processing...plasma will be king, oh yea, and the black level thingy would need to be addressed as well, lol.
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post #16 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 08:53 AM
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I cannot see LCD/LED overcoming PDP from an OVERALL PQ standpoint anytime soon, and perhaps even more likely: ever.

Yes LCD/LEDs get brighter for the worst (ambiently-lit) rooms around. Most PDPs however are fine to superb right out of the box and even better after the implementation of a modicum of common sense regarding placement and window treatments (if necessary).

But even that edge for LCD/LED is hardly a win/win.

Significant LCD hurdles:

1. Still largely abysmal off-axis...a big issue for MOST modern living rooms.

2. Still largely hokey (at best) motion handling.

3. Still inferior blacks or those just approaching PDP levels.

4. Still mura and flashlighting going on with many, many, sets.

5. Now with many LED sets, we get blooming and halos. great.

Plasma:

Buzzes a bit, some more than others. 99 times out 100 not an issue during typical use at typical distances

Phosphor Trailing: for the % that see them at normal distances, it is an issue. What that % IS, is a debate I simply no longer engage in.

Glossy/more reflective panels. Reality is, with more and more LCDs coming out with the same/nearly identical glossy surfaces, I suppose we're finding out that it really ISN'T an issue in the majority of applications. Just as I've maintained for years.


Significant pluses and minuses: PDP continues to win by a healthy margin.

Meanwhile, LCD, which has made considerable strides over the last half-decade, is still nowhere near poised to take the OVERALL picture crown anytime soon.

BTW: the "pixel-level" comment about PDPs already made and reiterated is a brilliant one.

Really, it's that very fact alone that represents the seed that's responsible for nearly the entire PQ division between the two technologies.

Put most simply: PDP, at its core, is an inherently superior technology to LCD when it comes to displaying moving, color, images.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #17 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 08:56 AM
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Plasma will allways be the best tv.But these big box stores are allways pushing lcd/led.so even if the PQ is better on a plasma. these people will listen to these salesmen that dont know anything about tv tech and buy a lcd/led over plasma...
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post #18 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:08 AM
 
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You should place a similar thread in the flat panel tech subforum. Am sure you'd get different results (doesn't make them right). ;0
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post #19 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Will plasma always be top dog?

OLED absolutely destroys both Plasma and LCD (LED) technology in everything. In 2011 we'll problably see a 40" OLED available for purchase from LG and perhaps Samsung.
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post #20 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:16 AM
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It is just curious that 9 out of 10 panels sold in the USA are LCDs. Plasma had a nice little surge in Q3 of 2010, but no one knows if that surge will continue. There seems to be a lot of interest in $600 50 inch 720P plasma panels.

Hobbiests, like those of us who post on this Forum represent a very small number of buyers. While we lament the virtual loss of back-lit, local dimming LCDs, the general public is not even aware of such distinctions.

Meanwhile, back at the Ranch, hobbiests sit around lamenting the fact that Panasonic doesn't seem intent on using Kuro tech to bring out a near perfect plasma.

Both techs have their plusses and minuses, but one thing is certain. LCD is going to maintain the vast majority of sales, and plasma fans still have the plasma option. IMHO, the 55 inch Vizio 552/553 is a very high performance LCD at a good price, and can hold its own against the best plasmas.

The important thing is that we continue to have a choice. Businesses make decisions after strategic planning, which is geared towards profits. There is no guarantee that plasma will be a serious player 5-10 years from now.
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post #21 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:30 AM
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I think plasma is going to go away eventually. Reason being, manufacturer preference towards LCD/LED means the fixing of LCD/LED issues will prove cheaper than those of plasma.
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post #22 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton View Post

I think plasma is going to go away eventually. Reason being, manufacturer preference towards LCD/LED means the fixing of LCD/LED issues will prove cheaper than those of plasma.

True. Plus they can't make much money on Plasma's given the prices are already so low compared to LED LCD's. Probably CCFL LCD's will be gone soon as well.
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post #23 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:37 AM
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1) always is a very long time Suggest OP set a timeframe for your poll. We can be confident plasma will be around in 5 years but not so sure by end of the decade. Plasma makers are making good margins on bigger sizes with low capex and zero depreciation cost next year

2) most LED are non matte for a reason, but LCD makers have exploited matte screens to the fullest from marketing point of view before admitting "it was not the optimal PQ solution". Not hard to see the strength of a "flexible" strategy now

3) think the target audience for LCD and plasma are quite different. Ladies will tend to favor LCD for one while HT would go for plasma, video gamers vs movie buffs, etc

4) individually lit pixels may not be plasma advantage for long. LED have made great strides in backlight strobing to reduce the hold effect ie motion blur. The holy Grail of LED backlighting is to have 6k LED for individual pixels which will replace color filter and also provide individual "pulses" which CCFL could never achieve. In another forum they are talking about QLED which may solve the 6k LED question.

5) if Sammy starts 8G OLED capacity in 2012 we will see 40" AMOLED TV in 2015. Not competitive in price yet but will be a good beachhead considering the absolute contrast advantage.
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post #24 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

1) always is a very long time Suggest OP set a timeframe for your poll. We can be confident plasma will be around in 5 years but not so sure by end of the decade. Plasma makers are making good margins on bigger sizes with low capex and zero depreciation cost next year

2) most LED are non matte for a reason, but LCD makers have exploited matte screens to the fullest from marketing point of view before admitting "it was not the optimal PQ solution". Not hard to see the strength of a "flexible" strategy now

3) think the target audience for LCD and plasma are quite different. Ladies will tend to favor LCD for one while HT would go for plasma, video gamers vs movie buffs, etc

4) individually lit pixels may not be plasma advantage for long. LED have made great strides in backlight strobing to reduce the hold effect ie motion blur. The holy Grail of LED backlighting is to have 6k LED for individual pixels which will replace color filter and also provide individual "pulses" which CCFL could never achieve. In another forum they are talking about QLED which may solve the 6k LED question.

5) if Sammy starts 8G OLED capacity in 2012 we will see 40" AMOLED TV in 2015. Not competitive in price yet but will be a good beachhead considering the absolute contrast advantage.

By then LED's would be the lowest price and OLED will be the most advanced. LCD and Plasma could be on its way out once OLED becomes main stream.
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post #25 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 09:55 AM
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I believe plasma has more potential, overall, in PQ and the best plasmas beat the best LCDs as a whole. It seems phosphor based technology can just give a better overall, natural image. However, it will come down to how much money the few remaining manufacturers will continue to spend to make improvements. I agree that plasmas will eventually go away...perhaps within 10 years. I will probably be buying my first plasma next year.

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post #26 of 85 Old 12-13-2010, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

OLED absolutely destroys both Plasma and LCD (LED) technology in everything. In 2011 we'll problably see a 40" OLED available for purchase from LG and perhaps Samsung.

You think we'll see 40 inch OLED screens in 2011 for sale at a reasonably competitive price...less than 5,000 dollars? Or hell for sale in any real quantity regardless of price? I think we're three or four years away from AMOLED or OLED being available in screens of that size at any halfway decent price.
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post #27 of 85 Old 12-14-2010, 04:54 AM
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In the next 5-10 yrs I imagine plasma migrating to larger sizes, esp. as 3D, no-bezel designs and plummeting prices help motivate larger panels in more homes.

I can see 42-inch plasmas disappearing soon, being replaced in mfctrs' product ranges by no-bezel 50-inchers with nearly the same footprint as old fat-bezel 42s. My theory: by 2012 the shopper for the 42" plasma will be force-fed either a 50" plasma or a 42" LCD.

3D makes everything look puny; plasma has the edge here since much cheaper at larger sizes. And the crosstalk issue will incline some people to plasma to minimize it.

For 60- and 70-something TVs, OLED won't be an option even in 2021; as for LCD plasma will continue to be significantly cheaper in the v large sizes. Also I wonder about the technical hurdles involved in making 70+" LCDs in volume with good yields -- that 72" Vizio never showed up. Hmm. I reckon the plasma niche will hang around for 15 years perhaps as the >50" TV size becomes gradually commoditized.

"... we wonÂt be stopping plasma production any time soon. We see it going on for another ten years." -- Kevin Lee, VP, Smart TV Partnerships (Samsung), 1/7/11
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post #28 of 85 Old 12-14-2010, 08:54 AM
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Agree that size will be impt factor going forward. 75-105" in sweet spot for home use TVs. No one has yet made affordable & avail to consumers, money is on plasma to do first.

Plasma edge in 3D is massive, if 3D tech takes off, don't know how LCD would compete.

OLED shortages for smartphones in 2010. 4" screens.
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post #29 of 85 Old 12-15-2010, 04:01 AM
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3D is a fad. Since 20 years ago. Until we can watch 3D comfortably without glasses

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Plasma edge in 3D is massive, if 3D tech takes off, don't know how LCD would compete.
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post #30 of 85 Old 12-15-2010, 05:17 AM
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3D has been around a lot longer than 20yrs.
Get rid of the glasses and offer more source material and it will take off.
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