Now I'm convinced there's something wrong with the GT25's picture - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 190 Old 04-10-2011, 06:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RicoRich196 View Post

Is it insane that the picture on any plasma I've seen, except the VT25 and any Kuro, looks exactly like the image on the right up until at least 8-10 ft away? Seriously, I don't know if it's my eyes or what but only the VT25s and Kuros look good up close as well as far away.

When watching HD content via cable TV, my 500M displays both types of images, because it's totally dependent on how the film was compressed from its original quality. It's rather annoying to watch the grainy movies, but by turning on some noise reduction it goes away. What bothers me the most is that it doesn't just affect older movies, even the newest films have this grainy crap everywhere . Someone, somewhere fails at their job.
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post #182 of 190 Old 04-10-2011, 07:37 AM
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OK here's my GT25 nightmare:

First time buyer of a non-CRT TV. Was so excited to start shopping about 3 weeks ago. Budget was around $700-$800. I began scouring the net for reviews.

Listened to the "tech" guys and decided to go Plasma, being that they claimed most of the bad rap on plasma no longer applies. Sweet. First, I ordered the S3 from Amazon but then I stumbled upon the 3-D GT25. Rave reviews, read 'em all. Decided this is the one. Called Amazon and canceled the S3 order before it shipped.

First one I got was from Brandsmart. November build. I really didn't notice anything wrong with it and I was pretty happy with my new TV. Then, my wife noticed Costco selling the same one but they offer a 2 year warranty on TVs, and Brandsmart wanted to charge me for extending the manufaturer's warranty and plus Costco was selling it for $20 less...thus began my nightmare!

First one I got from them was September build. Buzzing was noticeably louder, I could hear it from about 7ft away, and from anywhere in the room if it was totally quiet. Also, a noticed a slight dimple in the glass where the screen on the Nov. build from BM was pretty flawless.

So I freaked and took it back. Got another one. September build again. Buzz wasn't as bad on this one but the picture looked less sharp than the previous two, and I noticed ALL KINDS of ripples and wavy patterns in the objects reflected in the screen when the TV is off that I'd never noticed on the other ones...so I returned that one for ANOTHER GT25. Tried to run serial numbers with Panasonic before I bought but they told me they couldn't do that for me. Costco had 10 new GT25's shipped in and the store rep told me they were all August builds! WTH?

Anyway, finally went to another Costco in my area and got the 4th GT25. This was also (surprise!) September build. And this one had the same crazy rippling of light through the screen, etc. But since the last one had it too, I decided it was just part of the package and decided to start breaking it in.

Well now I can't even see the plasma flowing over the screen. It looks...I dunno...static. Of course I have a theory that the reason I can see light reflecting so crazily in these screens is because they are messed up, and uneven thus perhaps hindering the flow of the gas around the screen..? Not sure if that's a good theory or not but it makes sense that if light is bending then my eye is missing alot of what the screen is putting out...

Anyway, after less than 40 hours of break in using normal viewing and a slide show via USB I noticed a bad pixel on the screen that goes dark when the slide is blue and blinks intermittenly on other colors except white, where it kind of stays lit... And then I notice other pixels that just lit up and did not change color with the picture.

THEN I noticed when running the 1080p break-in slide show via USB, every time I brought up the menu screen, you could see the bands from the boxes around the selections going across the entire screen! I watched the entire TV from left to right change colors as I went up and down the menu with the selector...

So NOW what? The ST30 is just out of my reach because even getting the GT25 was stretching it to the limit (we are a family of meager means).

I just know though that this is a bad batch problem! Should I roll the dice yet again and TRY to get a GT25 that works perfectly like it was designed to? Should I just give up on plamsa and go get a LCD/LED?

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post #183 of 190 Old 04-10-2011, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

OK here's my GT25 nightmare:

First time buyer of a non-CRT TV. Was so excited to start shopping about 3 weeks ago. Budget was around $700-$800. I began scouring the net for reviews.

Listened to the "tech" guys and decided to go Plasma, being that they claimed most of the bad rap on plasma no longer applies. Sweet. First, I ordered the S3 from Amazon but then I stumbled upon the 3-D GT25. Rave reviews, read 'em all. Decided this is the one. Called Amazon and canceled the S3 order before it shipped.

First one I got was from Brandsmart. November build. I really didn't notice anything wrong with it and I was pretty happy with my new TV. Then, my wife noticed Costco selling the same one but they offer a 2 year warranty on TVs, and Brandsmart wanted to charge me for extending the manufaturer's warranty and plus Costco was selling it for $20 less...thus began my nightmare!

First one I got from them was September build. Buzzing was noticeably louder, I could hear it from about 7ft away, and from anywhere in the room if it was totally quiet. Also, a noticed a slight dimple in the glass where the screen on the Nov. build from BM was pretty flawless.

So I freaked and took it back. Got another one. September build again. Buzz wasn't as bad on this one but the picture looked less sharp than the previous two, and I noticed ALL KINDS of ripples and wavy patterns in the objects reflected in the screen when the TV is off that I'd never noticed on the other ones...so I returned that one for ANOTHER GT25. Tried to run serial numbers with Panasonic before I bought but they told me they couldn't do that for me. Costco had 10 new GT25's shipped in and the store rep told me they were all August builds! WTH?

Anyway, finally went to another Costco in my area and got the 4th GT25. This was also (surprise!) September build. And this one had the same crazy rippling of light through the screen, etc. But since the last one had it too, I decided it was just part of the package and decided to start breaking it in.

Well now I can't even see the plasma flowing over the screen. It looks...I dunno...static. Of course I have a theory that the reason I can see light reflecting so crazily in these screens is because they are messed up, and uneven thus perhaps hindering the flow of the gas around the screen..? Not sure if that's a good theory or not but it makes sense that if light is bending then my eye is missing alot of what the screen is putting out...

Anyway, after less than 40 hours of break in using normal viewing and a slide show via USB I noticed a bad pixel on the screen that goes dark when the slide is blue and blinks intermittenly on other colors except white, where it kind of stays lit... And then I notice other pixels that just lit up and did not change color with the picture.

THEN I noticed when running the 1080p break-in slide show via USB, every time I brought up the menu screen, you could see the bands from the boxes around the selections going across the entire screen! I watched the entire TV from left to right change colors as I went up and down the menu with the selector...

So NOW what? The ST30 is just out of my reach because even getting the GT25 was stretching it to the limit (we are a family of meager means).

I just know though that this is a bad batch problem! Should I roll the dice yet again and TRY to get a GT25 that works perfectly like it was designed to? Should I just give up on plamsa and go get a LCD/LED?

Doesnt anyone evaluate their tv based on watching normal content versus break in slides ? Did you buy it to watch break in slides ? And evaluating reflections in the glass when the tv is off ?

I cant speak to you particular GT25, mine is pretty spectacular. BTW AUG 10 build

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post #184 of 190 Old 04-10-2011, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Snow View Post

even the newest films have this grainy crap everywhere . Someone, somewhere fails at their job.

There are 3+1 possible sources of this grain:

- The original film grain from the celluloid film (it's much worse with old copies but still exists today).

- Sensor noise (the silicon based sensors produces noise which is heavier with dark contents but exists on every luminance levels). It applies to your images either when digitalizing celluloid copies or capturing real-life scenes with digital cameras. (It's much-much better with new high-end digital cameras.)

- Post-process effects: Some authors may use noise-based techniques (like perlin noise) to hide the artificial looking of the "not so nicely done" CGI elements. And some (insane(?)) authors add "film-grain effect" to the material which is grainy already because she/he feels that it will make it look more "cinematic".
-> I could scrag those school teachers who tell their students that "noise is our friend". No... noise is a bad thing which sometimes helps us to hide even worse things. And the stupid student will only remember that "noise is our friend" but forget the original idea and he will later say things like "Avatar looks bad because it's not grainy enough, it doesn't give me that cinematic feeling like the grainy celluloid does." (And he is "the expert". Oh god...)

+ Dithering noise: This is the only noise type which is our true friend. It helps to visualize more colors than physically exists in our display's gamut, thus avoid banding.
But dithering could be done well and horribly. For example, the A-FRC in LCDs is a very nice solution. May be nobody on this plane can tell when he uses an IPS display with 6bit+A-FRC or real 8bit colors.
Unfortunately I don't know how many shades does these Neo-PDP panels have but I think it's a simple laziness that current plasma displays features these horrible dithering noise patterns which is very noticeable (like the very old and cheap LCDs). I think Panasonic simply doesn't care to improve the dithering technique until most of the customers don't complain about it. (Look at this forum... everybody will tell you that "Plasma noise is normal, just forget about it and enjoy your TV show." period...)

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post #185 of 190 Old 04-10-2011, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Doesnt anyone evaluate their tv based on watching normal content versus break in slides ?

I watched plenty of normal content. The slides I only started using yesterday. And how is it normal to see the menu screen create bands of light that go all the way across the screen on a photo?

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post #186 of 190 Old 04-10-2011, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

I watched plenty of normal content. The slides I only started using yesterday. And how is it normal to see the menu screen create bands of light that go all the way across the screen on a photo?

I never said it was normal. Just seems like there is alot of obsessing over images on break in slides, reflections etc. Unless the specs are different between the 42 and the 50 you must have a defective set. The set when properly calibrated is capable of producing a very nice picture.

Again I would submit that still isnt a normal viewing scenario, but if you want to base your decision on that its certainly your perogative. No offense intended. All I'm saying is there are plently of positive owner reviews on the GT25 that counter most of the observations here.

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post #187 of 190 Old 04-10-2011, 02:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

There are 3+1 possible sources of this grain:

- Post-process effects: Some authors may use noise-based techniques (like perlin noise) to hide the artificial looking of the "not so nicely done" CGI elements. And some (insane(?)) authors add "film-grain effect" to the material which is grainy already because she/he feels that it will make it look more "cinematic"

Good point, I def assumed that every movie was supposed to look silky smooth. I only go to theaters twice a year, so I rarely see films on their native medium; maybe some of these movies do employ CG noise, but I kinda doubt it, because the frequency of "noisy movies" is rather high on my HBO's HD channels
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post #188 of 190 Old 04-11-2011, 03:07 PM
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As I said, almost every celluloid film has some amount of film-grain (that's why they call it like that). And almost every digital sensor has some sensor-noise.
So you start with two kind of noise and the lossy compression (encoding) will add more blocky noise. (And these noises will sometimes interfere with each other and become more noticeable [or sometimes re-silenced, but that's more rare]...)

With high quality celluloid films, not too dark scenes and HQ digital sensors, the compression is the biggest noise source which becomes harder as you lower the bitrate (and HDTV streams usually has significantly lower bitrade than Blu-Ray materials...)
(And there are other encoding parameters which are able to affect this [and the whole IQ in every aspects...].)


My favorite "smooth" film is Resident Evil 4 (2D) on Blu-Ray. (Avatar is nice too but that is more unrealistically "steril" and "fake-color looking". RE has some "almost real life" scenes too, as well as artificial futuristic elements with heavy CGI, but both with nice details and smooth transitions between the color shades...)

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post #189 of 190 Old 04-13-2011, 01:39 AM
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think i'd have rather kept the first one, & forget about saving $20 and the extra warranty.
oh well, hindsight. you were spoiled by the first one having been trouble free, & assumed the rest would be just as.
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post #190 of 190 Old 04-13-2011, 05:13 AM
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There are no gases "flowing" in a plasma.

Search for "line bleeding" to learn about that peculiar phenomenon of lines going out from the sides on menus. It's "normal" for a plasma TV but rarely manifests itself during normal viewing.

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