Official Panasonic 2011 TC-PxxST30 Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

Well the Vt25 measured .004 mll, risings will triple at the end. So it will end up at .012-.013, which is right exactly in the ballpark of what Chad measured. It all makes sense to me.

I don't see any black level measurements in those PDF's. So where are you getting the measurement from?

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post #32 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

There is no ST30 black level measurement's in his PDF's. So where are you pulling .013fL from?

The numbers are posted in the review. Third paragraph titled "Calibration".

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post #33 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

The numbers are posted in the review. Third paragraph titled "Calibration".

Thanks.

I found it; ya not too impressive.

Quote:
The black level, measured with a Milori Trichromat-1 meter profiled off an i1Pro Spectro, and with a black blanket blocking any ambient light, measured .0135 fL.


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post #34 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 08:38 AM
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lets see if samsung steps up their game
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post #35 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 08:56 AM
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I would be a lot more comfortable about the findings if we knew that Panasonic had corrected the issue with the MLL going up over the life of the panel. If the MLL on these new panels is also going to triple, that is really going to be horrendous.

The GT30 is the same as the ST30 so the levels there should be the same as what chad got in his review.

The VT30 has a better filter and we have already seen press shots from Panasonic in which the VT30 bests the VT25 (I'm guessing post rise) so maybe .008?

Unfortunately we now know why Panasonic did not play up black level performance at CES this year and why even insiders have cautioned to "wait for pro reviews" before getting our hopes up.

It would seem that 2011 is possibly the year that Panasonic gets a brighter panel with better gamma and stable blacks (on par with Samsung) and that they won't improve the low light performance until 2012.... which is a huge disappointment.

Let's see what Samsung can do with their 2011 lineup. If they really improved on the 2010 performance and fixed problems like their cinemasmooth bug it is hard to see how Panasonic can beat them this year other than in total panel brightness.
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post #36 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 09:06 AM
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Well by the sounds of it, the ST30's only real downside is the color. I don't know if I could handle those Purple and yellow hue-ish skin tones and the fact that the colors
aren't quite as rich or vibrant as the VT25 kind of sucks as well. I'm really curious to see if the Samsung D450 and D550 series will have panasonic beat regarding color accuracy.
Panny always seems to win in the Black level department, but Samsung always has them beat with color.

Personally, I'd always go for superior color while taking a slight hit in the black level department. My current CRT has brilliant colors, but the black levels aren't exactly 'black' black.
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post #37 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 09:32 AM
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can the Purple and yellow hue-ish skin tones be fixed some how may be a fw update.other then that. this is a solid tv for the money it compares nice to the vt25.its no vt25 but it still nice
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post #38 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I would be a lot more comfortable about the findings if we knew that Panasonic had corrected the issue with the MLL going up over the life of the panel. If the MLL on these new panels is also going to triple, that is really going to be horrendous.

The GT30 is the same as the ST30 so the levels there should be the same as what chad got in his review.

The VT30 has a better filter and we have already seen press shots from Panasonic in which the VT30 bests the VT25 (I'm guessing post rise) so maybe .008?

Unfortunately we now know why Panasonic did not play up black level performance at CES this year and why even insiders have cautioned to "wait for pro reviews" before getting our hopes up.

It would seem that 2011 is possibly the year that Panasonic gets a brighter panel with better gamma and stable blacks (on par with Samsung) and that they won't improve the low light performance until 2012.... which is a huge disappointment.

Let's see what Samsung can do with their 2011 lineup. If they really improved on the 2010 performance and fixed problems like their cinemasmooth bug it is hard to see how Panasonic can beat them this year other than in total panel brightness.

After watching this scenario take place for the past 3 years, I doubt they'll significantly improve low light performance next year. It's doesn't seem to be how Panasonic works. They're the most conservative company in consumer electronics.

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post #39 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

After watching this scenario take place for the past 3 years, I doubt they'll significantly improve low light performance next year. It's doesn't seem to be how Panasonic works. They're the most conservative company in consumer electronics.

Well, I waited last year and it didn't do me any good. I guess I will have to wait for the VT30 reviews to see what differences there are post calibration.

At this point considering that most of the Panasonic gains seem to be on the lower end televisions I might actually be better served going with a GT30 series TV or a D7000 from Samsung.

I was really surprised by the reported motion handling on the ST with 60hz being as good or even a touch better than 96hz on the VT25.
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post #40 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 09:59 AM
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How is it 2011 and we going backwards in tech away from the kuros?

the black levels are terrible...
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post #41 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 10:05 AM
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So VT25 will remain the best plasma Panasonic has ever produced. This is absolutely ridiculous. Samsung will easily beat them this year.

I remember Chad measured some ridiculous MLL for the VT25 last year as well and we all knew it was wrong, but he says he can easily see the MLL difference between VT25 and ST30 (and the VT25 has probably risen by now too!). Avjunkie on HDJ says he saw no MLL difference among the GT30, VT25, and ST30, but those were pre-production samples he was playing with. Is it possible that the mass produced models perform significantly worse?
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post #42 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 10:14 AM
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Panasonic will probably have samsung beat in total panel brightness, filter tech, and motion handling. Samsung probably will win in black level, color gamut and gamma performance. Too bad the samsungs are so damn ugly this year.
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post #43 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Panasonic will probably have samsung beat in total panel brightness, filter tech, and motion handling. Samsung probably will win in black level, color gamut and gamma performance. Too bad the samsungs are so damn ugly this year.

ST30 is not bright (only 37 fL) and its filter is not as good as Samsung's Real Black Filter (which is the best filter ever seen on a plasma). Samsung plasmas have no problem with motion handling, despite what Panny PR says every year.

If Chad's findings are consistent, then only thing Panasonic wins in is design. But that of course is highly subjective.
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post #44 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

ST30 is not bright (only 37 fL) and its filter is not as good as Samsung's Real Black Filter (which is the best filter ever seen on a plasma). Samsung plasmas have no problem with motion handling, despite what Panny PR says every year.

If Chad's findings are consistent, then only thing Panasonic wins in is design. But that of course is highly subjective.

Do you think Samsung's lower end 720p Plasma D450 series will manage to out do the ST30 regarding Color and black levels?
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post #45 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Do you think Samsung's lower end 720p Plasma D450 series will manage to out do the ST30 regarding Color and black levels?

I don't think so, but who really knows now. ST30 is a mid-high end Panasonic so it should be compared to Samsung's 6 and 7 series models.
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post #46 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

I don't think so, but who really knows now. ST30 is a mid-high end Panasonic so it should be compared to Samsung's 6 and 7 series models.

Well I was putting my money on the D550. Apperantly it's rocking the same HD Crystal engine and 3D that the 6 and 7 series are equiped with.
Aside from all of those added in aps that have nothing to do with PQ there shouldn't exactly be any difference regarding picture quality I'm guessing, although the 7 series seems to have a Real Black Filter.
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post #47 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:03 AM
 
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The ST bests the S2 in both Gamma and Color, pre/post in Cinema mode. Not sure what you guys are on about...

A lot of the suspects here are folks who are either anti Panny, or who over hyped what they "thought" this would be. Look at it for what it is, an improvement. Also dont assume things about the GT and VT until they are tested by a professional like Chad.
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post #48 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Well I was putting my money on the D550. Apperantly it's rocking the same HD Crystal engine and 3D that the 6 and 7 series are equiped with.
Aside from all of those added in aps that have nothing to do with PQ there shouldn't exactly be any difference regarding picture quality I'm guessing, although the 7 series seems to have a Real Black Filter.

There will probably be a difference in color between the 500 and 600 series Samsungs and the 6000, 7000, and 8000. It seems the same will be true for the ST, GT, and VT series from Panasonic based on Chad's review.

If there is no PQ differences between the higher and lower end models, the higher end models would be pointless.

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post #49 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

The ST bests the S2 in both Gamma and Color, pre/post in Cinema mode. Not sure what you guys are on about...

A lot of the suspects here are folks who are either anti Panny, or who over hyped what they "thought" this would be. Look at it for what it is, an improvement. Also dont assume things about the GT and VT until they are tested by a professional like Chad.

Well, I'm going to wonder if THX mode will give the GT series better color and black levels.

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post #50 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:11 AM
 
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Well, I'm going to wonder if THX mode will give the GT series better color and black levels.


Be interesting to see. I was pleasantly surprised to actually see a better gamma (S2 was 1.9) and more accurate CIE chart in Cinema.

My comment was more for these regulars who continue down the same path.
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post #51 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:14 AM
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What? The low end 3D plasma is not the top end model? I am shocked!! I guess all TVs will suck this year. Better wait till 2022.
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post #52 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

The ST bests the S2 in both Gamma and Color, pre/post in Cinema mode. Not sure what you guys are on about...

A lot of the suspects here are folks who are either anti Panny, or who over hyped what they "thought" this would be. Look at it for what it is, an improvement. Also dont assume things about the GT and VT until they are tested by a professional like Chad.

Like I mentioned on HDJ, I'm not sure it's fair to compare the ST30 to the S2. The MSRP's are quite a bit different with the ST being much more comparable to the G20/25's debut pricing. This is a year later and obviously prices are expected to come down a little in addition to new features being added (so 3D is a wash in that regard). I think the S30 is a better fit to the S2's.

Even ignoring that, were the 50" S2's limited to 37fL in Cinema last year? How do their Custom modes compare (particularly gamma)? Those aren't rhetorical, I'm honestly inquiring because I don't know. I think color is a clear improvement across the board Vs. the S2, but how many people are going to be happy with 37fL, especially for daytime use? It doesn't sound like Custom goes much higher without noticeable sacrifices.
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post #53 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:22 AM
 
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Like I mentioned on HDJ, I'm not sure it's fair to compare the ST30 to the S2. The MSRP's are quite a bit different with the ST being much more comparable to the G20/25's debut pricing. This is a year later and obviously prices are expected to come down a little in addition to new features being added (so 3D is a wash in that regard). I think the S30 is a better fit to the S2's.

Even ignoring that, were the 50" S2's limited to 37fL in Cinema last year? How do their Custom modes compare (particularly gamma)? Those aren't rhetorical, I'm honestly inquiring because I don't know. I think color is a clear improvement across the board Vs. the S2, but how many people are going to be happy with 37fL, especially for daytime use? It doesn't sound like Custom goes much higher without noticeable sacrifices.

My S2 58" hit higher fl's, but thats where the gamma comes in. That lower gamma allowed a brighter image, but at 1.9 it's bad. When calibrated with a VP, and an adjusted gamma of 2.2, my 58" only hit 36 with a contrast of 90.

Gamma in Custom is even worse than Cinema, both of which are worse than the ST. As said, color chart is better too. Only negative I can see is the black level at 0.013. But, IMO, for the price of the set it's not a big deal to me, YMMV.

My two biggest issues with the S2 outta the box were gamma and color, and they seem to be getting better.
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post #54 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Prof.Who View Post

What? The low end 3D plasma is not the top end model? I am shocked!! I guess all TVs will suck this year. Better wait till 2022.

EXACTLY. If the VT30 performs like this, then there's reason to scream "the sky is falling!" From a business standpoint, it wouldn't make sense for this set to perform as well as the top of the line...but we knew some folks would take a review like this and run with it. I'm shocked that the ST30 was actually able to go toe-to-toe in some areas with last year's top model.

I'll be anxiously awaiting a VT30 review...
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At the end of the day its a $1200 3D set...
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post #56 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:35 AM
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EXACTLY. If the VT30 performs like this, then there's reason to scream "the sky is falling!" From a business standpoint, it wouldn't make sense for this set to perform as well as the top of the line...but we knew some folks would take a review like this and run with it. I'm shocked that the ST30 was actually able to go toe-to-toe in some areas with last years top model.

I'll be anxiously awaiting a VT30 review...

I agree. I am really interested to see what the GT30 does. If it handles 24p the same, has a lower black level, better color and greyscale and does not have floating blacks I might be sold.

The ST does look solid though. With prices at about $1300 now for the 50 inch it does seem in some ways a step up from the Gt25.
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post #57 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:52 AM
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Too bad the samsungs are so damn ugly this year.


How so? The only thing ugly about the 2011 Samsungs are the feet on the D8000 models IMO. The D7000 series (including the stand) looks great.
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post #58 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

There will probably be a difference in color between the 500 and 600 series Samsungs and the 6000, 7000, and 8000. It seems the same will be true for the ST, GT, and VT series from Panasonic based on Chad's review.

If there is no PQ differences between the higher and lower end models, the higher end models would be pointless.

ST30 is NOT a low end model. X3 and S30 are. All the 3D models share the same panel so don't magically expect a difference in black level.
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post #59 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:54 AM
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How so? The only thing ugly about the 2011 Samsungs are the feet on the D8000 models IMO. The D7000 series (including the stand) looks great.

The styling on the 7000 and 6000 is tacky and overall seems flimsy. Looks like it belongs in a toys'r'us.
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post #60 of 8440 Old 03-05-2011, 11:58 AM
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Just wanted to confirm, the ST30 has the glasses sync emitter built-in? So I just need the 2nd gen 2*active glasses+Avatar 3D pack and I should be good to go?
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