Official Panasonic 2011 TC-PxxST30 Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

ST30 is NOT a low end model. X3 and S30 are. All the 3D models share the same panel so don't magically expect a difference in black level.

ST30 is not a high end model either (it's supposed to be a 3D S series, which is lower end no matter how you look at it), and I'm not expecting a magical difference in black level. I'm guessing Panasonic held black levels back in the ST series. Remember, the VT30 is supposed to be around .002.

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post #62 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

The styling on the 7000 and 6000 is tacky and overall seems flimsy. Looks like it belongs in a toys'r'us.

Interesting. What do you consider to be a good looking TV?

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post #63 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post


ST30 is NOT a low end model. X3 and S30 are. All the 3D models share the same panel so don't magically expect a difference in black level.

Low-mid then. Whatever, it is still the bottom 3D Plasma from panny.
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post #64 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Prof.Who View Post

What? The low end 3D plasma is not the top end model? I am shocked!! I guess all TVs will suck this year. Better wait till 2022.

What is at issue is that all three tvs are supposed to use this same panel and the improvements are underwhelming to some of us.
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post #65 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

ST30 is not a high end model either (it's supposed to be a 3D S series, which is lower end no matter how you look at it), and I'm not expecting a magical difference in black level. I'm guessing Panasonic held black levels back in the ST series. Remember, the VT30 is supposed to be around .002.

The ST30 is the successor of the S20 (S20 blacklevel between 0.006-0.007fl) . So, the ST30s blacklevel was supposed to measure at 0.07 or better ( I expected 0.004fl). 0.013fl is ridiculous...
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post #66 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

ST30 is not a high end model either (it's supposed to be a 3D S series, which is lower end no matter how you look at it), and I'm not expecting a magical difference in black level. I'm guessing Panasonic held black levels back in the ST series. Remember, the VT30 is supposed to be around .002.

No one with any inside info has said .002 for vt30 that is pure wishful thinking and speculation. Panasonic does have a comparison that shows vt30 being darker than vt25 but that could be a post rise .01 VT.
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post #67 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

Interesting. What do you consider to be a good looking TV?

Samsung makes the most beautiful plasma's period. I love the gloss finish, the crystal clear pearl stand holder, leading up to the beautiful glossy stand itself
the C550 Plasma from last year is my favorite looking Samsung Plasma to date.

http://ca.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0S0zvg...PN50C550_2.jpg

And toys are awesome bud! Well the ones from the 80's and early 90's! hehe

But, I must say....The Samsung D8000 is incredibly ugly....Easily one of thee' worst designed HDTVs around. See for yourself.


The D6500 on the other hand is absolutely gorgeous imo...Actually, i think it even looks a smidge better than the C550.
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post #68 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post


What is at issue is that all three tvs are supposed to use this same panel and the improvements are underwhelming to some of us.

Well considering how the black level would jump all over the place on the 2010 models, one stable level could be seen as an improvement.
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post #69 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by david437 View Post

The ST30 is the successor of the S20 (S20 blacklevel between 0.006-0.007fl) . So, the ST30s blacklevel was supposed to measure at 0.07 or better ( I expected 0.004fl). 0.013fl is ridiculous...

There's more to IQ than black levels you can only see in a dark room. ANSI contrast is better. That is huge. Who knows, maybe Panasonic will do what Samsung did last year and improve black levels with a firmware update.

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post #70 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:20 PM
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So now were back to Panasonic 2008 black levels on the ST30. That's horrid.
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post #71 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:21 PM
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my kuro from 2008 has stable blacks, which measure at 0.001fl...
Sorry, but its 2011 and I expected a little bit more than 0.013fl.
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post #72 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

No one with any inside info has said .002 for vt30 that is pure wishful thinking and speculation. Panasonic does have a comparison that shows vt30 being darker than vt25 but that could be a post rise .01 VT.

I thought DNice mentioned .002. Maybe not.

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post #73 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

I thought DNice mentioned .002. Maybe not.

Nope.
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post #74 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

Interesting. What do you consider to be a good looking TV?

I think the 8G and 9G Pioneers were the best designed overall. GT30 and VT30 I would put right up there based on the pictures I've seen, but I will wait till I see them in person. ST30 is pretty good, but something is off about the bezel. Don't like the rounded corners.

I think Samsung usually makes a good looking set, but their higher end stuff this year just looks atrocious.
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post #75 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

I think the 8G and 9G Pioneers were the best designed overall. GT30 and VT30 I would put right up there based on the pictures I've seen, but I will wait till I see them in person. ST30 is pretty good, but something is off about the bezel. Don't like the rounded corners.

I think Samsung usually makes a good looking set, but their higher end stuff this year just looks atrocious.

I agree the D8000 is over the top, but I don't see anything wrong with the D7000 or D6500.

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post #76 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Samsung makes the most beautiful plasma's period. I love the gloss finish, the crystal clear pearl stand holder, leading up to the beautiful glossy stand itself
the C550 Plasma from last year is my favorite looking Samsung Plasma to date.

http://ca.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0S0zvg...PN50C550_2.jpg

And toys are awesome bud! Well the ones from the 80's and early 90's! hehe

But, I must say....The Samsung D8000 is incredibly ugly....Easily one of thee' worst designed HDTVs around. See for yourself.


The D6500 on the other hand is absolutely gorgeous imo...Actually, i think it even looks a smidge better than the C550.


Well, of those two the D8000 looks better in a Mid Century Mod or Contemporary room, looks better on low cabinets and looks like the future. Young people and those young at heart will most likely prefer that design.

The D6500 is more traditional, today's conservative with a touch of contemporary that will look best in a cabinet, on more traditional furniture or when one desires a floating effect (because they just don't want to put it on the wall). It's handsome and will appeal to those who are conservative or desire a mature traditional home environment with a touch of contemporary.

But, that's just my opinion.

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post #77 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 02:15 PM
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I need to ask, just to be sure that I'm not misunderstanding. Is the glare on this year's panels more, less or the same as on the G25?

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post #78 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

ST30 will kick the S2 squarely in the ass.

Oh I know that. The question I had was whether the ST30 would kick the S2's ass hard enough to warrant me upgrading so soon. So far, I'm not so sure.
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post #79 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

I thought DNice mentioned .002. Maybe not.

Nope.

He did mention a 10% improvement in MLL and a 30% improvement in peak brightness, though.

I'm really not seeing either come to fruition in this review. The MLL is over 3x higher than the VT25's starting MLL. 37 ftL from a small window pattern doesn't impress much, either.
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post #80 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 02:44 PM
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What interesting to me is that Chad B says the VT25's blacks are only slightly better than the ST30, yet their .fl numbers are much different. Does a darker screen and better contrast for the ST30 really make that much of a difference?
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post #81 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

Oh I know that. The question I had was whether the ST30 would kick the S2's ass hard enough to warrant me upgrading so soon. So far, I'm not so sure.

Instead of upggrading every year, why don't you just save up and buy a high end model you'll be happy with for a number of years? It should be cheaper that way and you'll have a better picture to watch.

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post #82 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

What interesting to me is that Chad B says the VT25's blacks are only slightly better than the ST30, yet their .fl numbers are much different. Does a darker screen and better contrast for the ST30 really make that much of a difference?

Your eyes adjust to the brightest light in the room and since they have limited dynamic range, blacks look blacker with light (unless there is so much light the image gets washed out, which is where the AR filter comes in).

In a dark room with a black screen, blacks may not seem so impressive. Add a little substance to that screen (something like text) and the blacks will look a little better. Add a bright subject to the center of the screen and the blacks will look perfect.

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post #83 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Noah View Post

He did mention a 10% improvement in MLL and a 30% improvement in peak brightness, though.

I'm really not seeing either come to fruition in this review. The MLL is over 3x higher than the VT25's starting MLL. 37 ftL from a small window pattern doesn't impress much, either.

Yeah, I remember that also. However the numbers on this panel don't seem to bear that out.

It could be as someone else said that even though the panel is the same Panasonic is holding back PQ on different models via firmware to try to differentiate them.

Which, if true, would be rather bizarre.

I guess we'll know when the GT and VT start showing up next month in smaller sizes.
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post #84 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

Instead of upggrading every year, why don't you just save up and buy a high end model you'll be happy with for a number of years? It should be cheaper that way and you'll have a better picture to watch.

Well I don't upgrade every year, the last TV I bought was 5 years ago. However, from the way people were talking up the ST/GT/VT, it sounded like the ST would be a significantly better TV than the S2 and in many ways it is. In a few months, the 50" ST30 would probably be around $1000. That's not a bad price for a TV that's close to the VT25.
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post #85 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

Your eyes adjust to the brightest light in the room and since they have limited dynamic range, blacks look blacker with light (unless there is so much light the image gets washed out, which is where the AR filter comes in).

In a dark room with a black screen, blacks may not seem so impressive. Add a little substance to that screen (something like text) and the blacks will look a little better. Add a bright subject to the center of the screen and the blacks will look perfect.

I'm aware of that, but what I find interesting is that Chad clearly says that with on screen content, there's really no discernible difference between the VT25 and the ST30. That's amazing to me considering the big difference in measured black level.
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post #86 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

What interesting to me is that Chad B says the VT25's blacks are only slightly better than the ST30, yet their .fl numbers are much different. Does a darker screen and better contrast for the ST30 really make that much of a difference?

Some interesting side notes: although I've calibrated many VT25s, I've only measured the black level on 2 of them (black level measurement isn't necessary for calibration). I did not measure the black level on the VT25 that I compared with the ST30. One, the original VT25 that I reviewed, measured .01 fL. The second measured .005. They were different sizes, and it's possible one may have had more hours logged on it than the other. Panel size makes a difference with black level on some Samsungs, though I don't know about with Panasonics.
Also, some plasmas change a little after they've had test patterns displaying on the screen for a couple hours. That's why I try to run a scrolling bar for at least a few minutes, and then give the plasma a rest with a black screen for a few minutes before the reading.

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post #87 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:20 PM
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It sounds like this all depends incredibly upon whether or not that ST black level rises. If it's a true value and doesn't rise above that, it sounds okay. If that is the starting value and it rises, then booo.
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post #88 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:22 PM
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Has anyone considered that the measured black level could simply be WRONG? Do you really think the ST30 took a step backwards? I doubt it. I'd place money on a bad reading/mis-calibrated meter myself.

But go ahead...resume talking about the measured black level and how bad it is despite blacks which look visibly as dark as the VT25 according to 2-3 sources.
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post #89 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:26 PM
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I'd also add that waiting for D-Nice to measure it (since he has one of the most accurate meters available) might ease some concern about black level.

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post #90 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 04:19 PM
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Just got back from Best Buy and looked at both ST30 and D7000 in person. I'm totally impressed by the D7000 design. It only has less than an inch thick transparent plastic (or glass i'm not sure) for the frame. The effect was stunning, it looked as if just the screen is floating in the air (it was wall mounted). Under the brightly lit show room, the frame is hardly noticeable. They had 55" and 46" LED-LCD on display, the bright image might also contributed to the floating screen effect. I then checked out the ST30, it looked much more bulkier than the D7000. It was wall mounted also, so I did not see the base, but just the panel itself. To me ST30 is no more near the aesthetic appealing that the D7000 has. I was set on getting a ST30 this year, but now after reading Chad's review and seeing the TV in person, I'm having second thoughts. If D7000's PQ can be the same or close to ST30 or GT30, I think that would the be TV for me. It's just so sexy looking.

EDIT: after some research, seems like the transparent frame is only for LCDs. bummer....
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