Official Panasonic 2011 TC-PxxST30 Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post
Has anyone considered that the measured black level could simply be WRONG? Do you really think the ST30 took a step backwards? I doubt it. I'd place money on a bad reading/mis-calibrated meter myself.

But go ahead...resume talking about the measured black level and how bad it is despite blacks which look visibly as dark as the VT25 according to 2-3 sources.
It's hard to think such highly respected professional calibrator like Chad would make that mistake. I believe his reading is correct. 0.0135 isn't really all that bad. Consider that pre-risen G25 had a reading of around 0.006 and is expected to double or triple in its lifetime that would be in the same range if not worse than ST30. Also 0.0135 is roughly the same range as 2010 Samsung and LG panels at same price level. We'll just have to wait to see the reviews on GT30 and VT30.
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post #92 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:28 PM
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What? The low end 3D plasma is not the top end model? I am shocked!! I guess all TVs will suck this year. Better wait till 2022.
This made me LOL. Well done.

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post #93 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:29 PM
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I think you are talking about 7000 series Samsung LED, their plasma does not have the frame you are talking about.

For me, LED just can't beat the image of a Plasma yet, regardless of how small they can make the Bezel.
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post #94 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I think you are talking about 7000 series Samsung LED, their plasma does not have the frame you are talking about.

For me, LED just can't beat the image of a Plasma yet, regardless of how small they can make the Bezel.
yeah you're right, just found that out. bummer...
I can't go with LCD either, it has to be plasma
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post #95 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:39 PM
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It looks like the ST30 comes with a wifi dongle bundled?

Any reports on the 3D performance compared to the GT25? Is the 2D->3D conversion any good?
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post #96 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 03:48 PM
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I think lots of people just have too high of a expectation on ST30 after hearing that it will have the same panel as GT30. Could it possible be that even though it's that same panel but Panasonic did something to it to reduce the PQ to sell it cheaper as a low end model? Much like what Nvidia and ATI does to the mid-range cards that the same as top-end but with rendering pipelines locked by factory.
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post #97 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj23jay_lin View Post
I think lots of people just have too high of a expectation on ST30 after hearing that it will have the same panel as GT30. Could it possible be that even though it's that same panel but Panasonic did something to it to reduce the PQ to sell it cheaper as a low end model? Much like what Nvidia and ATI does to the mid-range cards that the same as top-end but with rendering pipelines locked by factory.
It's possible the ST series is getting the "seconds." Panels that aren't stable enough for the VT series. It's also possible they are getting cheaper capacitors, etc.

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post #98 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
Some interesting side notes: although I've calibrated many VT25s, I've only measured the black level on 2 of them (black level measurement isn't necessary for calibration). I did not measure the black level on the VT25 that I compared with the ST30. One, the original VT25 that I reviewed, measured .01 fL. The second measured .005. They were different sizes, and it's possible one may have had more hours logged on it than the other. Panel size makes a difference with black level on some Samsungs, though I don't know about with Panasonics.
From my encounters, the 50/54 VT25s consistently measure between 0.0039 to 0.0042fL The 58/65 VT25s consistently measure between 0.0036 to 0.004fL. Your first VT25 must have been either a dud, light leakage while doing your measurement or you are measuring beyond the limits of your meter.

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Also, some plasmas change a little after they've had test patterns displaying on the screen for a couple hours. That's why I try to run a scrolling bar for at least a few minutes, and then give the plasma a rest with a black screen for a few minutes before the reading.
Agreed and I do a similar procedure when I measure black levels in the middle or end of a calibration session.

BTW, nice overview of the 50ST30
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post #99 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj23jay_lin View Post
I think lots of people just have too high of a expectation on ST30 after hearing that it will have the same panel as GT30. Could it possible be that even though it's that same panel but Panasonic did something to it to reduce the PQ to sell it cheaper as a low end model? Much like what Nvidia and ATI does to the mid-range cards that the same as top-end but with rendering pipelines locked by factory.
Well to be fair, such expectations aren't entirely unfounded as it would not be unprecedented for Panasonic to put out multiple models that perform similarly. The S1, G10/15, and V10 were almost indistinguishable in Custom mode, and (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think the S2 and G20/25 were miles apart either (barring THX). I'm not really familiar with how the top 2 or 3 models differed in the PX/PZ lines, so I can't comment there.
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post #100 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post
Well to be fair, such expectations aren't entirely unfounded as it would not be unprecedented for Panasonic to put out multiple models that perform similarly. The S1, G10/15, and V10 were almost indistinguishable in Custom mode, and (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think the S2 and G20/25 were miles apart either (barring THX). I'm not really familiar with how the top 2 or 3 models differed in the PX/PZ lines, so I can't comment there.
Correct. Panasonic traditionally uses the same panel on their models and differentiates with other features or things like filters and design. I think this year and last they have one shared 3D panel and then the 2D panel for lower end sets.
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post #101 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 05:09 PM
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I may be behind the curve, but I thought that the new VTs were using the "Pro" variant of the Infinite Black 2 Panel while the ST and GT were using the regular "Infinite Black 2" panels. Is this still true, and if so what's the difference this year? Better filter on the VT?

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post #102 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 05:19 PM
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This can be found at a few sites:


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LL
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post #103 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 05:29 PM
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This can be found at a few sites:

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That looks European since it says DVB.
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post #104 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 05:32 PM
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That looks European since it says DVB.
Yes.

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post #105 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post
I may be behind the curve, but I thought that the new VTs were using the "Pro" variant of the Infinite Black 2 Panel while the ST and GT were using the regular "Infinite Black 2" panels. Is this still true, and if so what's the difference this year? Better filter on the VT?
Supposedly that is the only difference as far as the panel tech goes, all three TVs are using the same panel.
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post #106 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post
I may be behind the curve, but I thought that the new VTs were using the "Pro" variant of the Infinite Black 2 Panel while the ST and GT were using the regular "Infinite Black 2" panels. Is this still true, and if so what's the difference this year? Better filter on the VT?
Different filter on the VT. Apparently it is a special filter that reduces MLL slightly.

I'm still banking on Chad's measurement being inaccurate. I remember he also measured the VT25 around .01 fL when it is actually .004.
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post #107 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post
Different filter on the VT. Apparently it is a special filter that reduces MLL slightly.

I'm still banking on Chad's measurement being inaccurate. I remember he also measured the VT25 around .01 fL when it is actually .004.
Was it the same VT25 or different one?
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post #108 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post
Different filter on the VT. Apparently it is a special filter that reduces MLL slightly.
I'm curious if the VT30's different filter is applied to that extra layer of outer glass, or if it's bonded directly to the actual panel like on the GT30 and ST30.

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post #109 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post
Well to be fair, such expectations aren't entirely unfounded as it would not be unprecedented for Panasonic to put out multiple models that perform similarly. The S1, G10/15, and V10 were almost indistinguishable in Custom mode, and (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think the S2 and G20/25 were miles apart either (barring THX). I'm not really familiar with how the top 2 or 3 models differed in the PX/PZ lines, so I can't comment there.
The S1 and G10 were close, barring the THX. But the S2 and the G20/25 weren't close. Especially when it came to gamma and color.
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post #110 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
From my encounters, the 50/54 VT25s consistently measure between 0.0039 to 0.0042fL The 58/65 VT25s consistently measure between 0.0036 to 0.004fL. Your first VT25 must have been either a dud, light leakage while doing your measurement or you are measuring beyond the limits of your meter.

Agreed and I do a similar procedure when I measure black levels in the middle or end of a calibration session.

BTW, nice overview of the 50ST30
Thanks!

Yeah, .004 is getting way down there for my meter. .01 and slightly below it is more comfortable with.

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post #111 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 08:05 PM
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Chad do you feel confident that the Black Level reading for the ST30 you reviewed is accurate, using the equipment you own?
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post #112 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nutdotnet View Post

Chad do you feel confident that the Black Level reading for the ST30 you reviewed is accurate, using the equipment you own?

Yes.

Now, during the 3 1/2 hr drive home, my energy drink riddled mind came up with something that might possibly be relevant.

It's been documented that Panny and Samsung plasmas sometimes have measurement anomalies (like shifted grayscale, lower/higher light output and lower/higher black levels) with 1080P/24 input when processing that input at a multiple of 24. I've measured those differences on past Panny models.
Now, I did some of the measurements with a 1080P/24 source and some with 1080i. I can't remember which I used for the black level reading.
Even though I had the ST30 set to display 1080P/24 at 60Hz, I felt it's pans were awfully good with 1080P/24.

I'll pose this question to D-Nice or other knowledgeable people with experience on the ST30:
Could it possibly be that the ST30 processes 1080P/24 at something like 96Hz even when set to 60Hz, and that might be shifting the black level?

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post #113 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Yes.

Now, during the 3 1/2 hr drive home, my energy drink riddled mind came up with something that might possibly be relevant.

It's been documented that Panny and Samsung plasmas sometimes have measurement anomalies (like shifted grayscale, lower/higher light output and lower/higher black levels) with 1080P/24 input when processing that input at a multiple of 24. I've measured those differences on past Panny models.
Now, I did some of the measurements with a 1080P/24 source and some with 1080i. I can't remember which I used for the black level reading.
Even though I had the ST30 set to display 1080P/24 at 60Hz, I felt it's pans were awfully good with 1080P/24.

I'll pose this question to D-Nice or other knowledgeable people with experience on the ST30:
Could it possibly be that the ST30 processes 1080P/24 at something like 96Hz even when set to 60Hz, and that might be shifting the black level?

Hmm, I'm no expert, but I know that the 2010 Samsung Plasmas had lower black levels with Cinema Smooth turned on. I never read such a thing with the Panasonic plasmas. That would suck if it were the case.
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post #114 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 09:29 PM
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Any date on the 55"?
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post #115 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 09:34 PM
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Sry chadb but that blacklevel you measured seams way too high considering that the VT25 series were measured at 0.004fl (ok, with floating and rising blacks)...
I would expect at least 0.004fl blacks from the ST series. I hope your readings are wrong because if not good work panasonic...
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post #116 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by david437 View Post

Sry chadb but that blacklevel you measured seams way too high considering that the VT25 series were measured at 0.004fl (ok, with floating and rising blacks)...
I would expect at least 0.004fl blacks from the ST series. I hope your readings are wrong because if not good work panasonic...

Based on what? As in why would you expect the bottom tier 3D set from Panasonic to have just as low of black levels as the top teir Panasonic from 2010?
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post #117 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 09:45 PM
 
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The maximum brightness of only 37ftL is enough to put this TV out of contention for me. I require a minimum of 40ftL. I also require a gamma of 2.35-2.4 which it doesn't appear to be capable of (please correct me if I am wrong ChadB ).

A black level of 0.013ftL is not terrible by any means. I suppose this is good in a sense that they appear to have abandoned floating blacks and possibly rising blacks (I can't imagine it rising above 0.013ftL - if it does it will be a problem).
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post #118 of 8449 Old 03-05-2011, 10:21 PM
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Chad, did you get a chance to check out the 3D capabilities?

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post #119 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post

The maximum brightness of only 37ftL is enough to put this TV out of contention for me. I require a minimum of 40ftL. I also require a gamma of 2.35-2.4 which it doesn't appear to be capable of (please correct me if I am wrong ChadB ).

A black level of 0.013ftL is not terrible by any means. I suppose this is good in a sense that they appear to have abandoned floating blacks and possibly rising blacks (I can't imagine it rising above 0.013ftL - if it does it will be a problem).

Yes, the 37 fL is a limiting factor, and I was disappointed with it myself. It meets the THX recommended 35 fL for a totally dark room, but it's not a good number for living rooms. Plus, some people like it a bit brighter, like you, and there's nothing wrong with that. Reminds me of the ol' 800u...

No, without external help the gamma will not be in your desired range. In Custom mode you can use a setting that says it will give a gamma of 2.4, but it doesn't.

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post #120 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by psychobrew View Post

Chad, did you get a chance to check out the 3D capabilities?

Unfortunately, no.

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