Official Panasonic 2011 TC-PxxST30 Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

Hmm, I'm no expert, but I know that the 2010 Samsung Plasmas had lower black levels with Cinema Smooth turned on. I never read such a thing with the Panasonic plasmas. That would suck if it were the case.

I have visually confirmed a noticeable difference in black levels when engaging the 96Hz mode on a few V10s.

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post #122 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by david437 View Post

Sry chadb but that blacklevel you measured seams way too high considering that the VT25 series were measured at 0.004fl (ok, with floating and rising blacks)...
I would expect at least 0.004fl blacks from the ST series. I hope your readings are wrong because if not good work panasonic...

Sure, it seems too high, if you're expecting perfect blacks. I can understand being disappointed with it.
When taken in perspective of how most other high performance plasmas (except the Kuro) perform, it's a moderate number. Not great, but decent.
But when you take into account how the ST30's screen filter does a good job of soaking up ambient light and the ST30's good black stability, things start to look quite a bit better.

To quote from my viewing notes:

In a moderately bright room:
blacks and contrast looked outstanding in moderate ambient light

In a dark room:
good contrast

I never said blacks looked inky black, because they didn't. In a dark room, going by what I saw with my own eyes, it's not close to being the equal of a Kuro.
However, with some light in the room and/or some picture content on the screen, it's blacks look very dark.

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post #123 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 06:13 AM
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It's unlikely I'll upgrade this year from my S2 (will never own another TV with floating blacks) but I can't wait to see how the new Panny's turn out and if this issue is resolved. Waiting for more reviews to be sure.

On a side note, still loving the good ole S1

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post #124 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Sure, it seems too high, if you're expecting perfect blacks. I can understand being disappointed with it.
When taken in perspective of how most other high performance plasmas (except the Kuro) perform, it's a moderate number. Not great, but decent.
But when you take into account how the ST30's screen filter does a good job of soaking up ambient light and the ST30's good black stability, things start to look quite a bit better.

I think the concern is the fact that the black levels have gone backwards. No one expects perfect blacks, but to go from 0.008fl to 0.013fl (comparing S2 to ST30) is a little worrisome. However, I will refrain from judgment for now until D Nice can measure the MLL as his meter seems to be more accurate at measuring very low MLL, no offense to you Chad.
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post #125 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Sure, it seems too high, if you're expecting perfect blacks. I can understand being disappointed with it.
When taken in perspective of how most other high performance plasmas (except the Kuro) perform, it's a moderate number. Not great, but decent.
But when you take into account how the ST30's screen filter does a good job of soaking up ambient light and the ST30's good black stability, things start to look quite a bit better.

To quote from my viewing notes:

In a moderately bright room:
blacks and contrast looked outstanding in moderate ambient light

In a dark room:
good contrast

I never said blacks looked inky black, because they didn't. In a dark room, going by what I saw with my own eyes, it's not close to being the equal of a Kuro.
However, with some light in the room and/or some picture content on the screen, it's blacks look very dark.

Chad, did you view material with letterbox bars? How did they look on the VT25? Did you happen to take a measurement of the VT25, as well?

I thought, as well, after your review, that the filter must go a long way now towards giving deep blacks with some ambient light in the room. This can only benefit the average consumer.

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post #126 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 08:40 AM
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Curious how phosphor trailing is on this set in regards to gaming, as well as input lag...
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post #127 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 08:45 AM
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anyone tried out gaming on it? how are phosphor trailings and input lag?

*sorry for the double post! my computer is lagging like crazy
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post #128 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post

Just wanted to confirm, the ST30 has the glasses sync emitter built-in? So I just need the 2nd gen 2*active glasses+Avatar 3D pack and I should be good to go?

^^^ No glasses but the emitter I am sure is built in. Funny thing about Samsung is the Glasses for the 2011 models do not work with the 2010 I hope this is not the case with Panasonic.
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But, I must say....The Samsung D8000 is incredibly ugly....Easily one of thee' worst designed HDTVs around. See for yourself.

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Low-mid then. Whatever, it is still the bottom 3D Plasma from panny.

X3 is the stater line. S30 and ST30 are low end. GT30 mid, VT30 Top dog. Thats how i would seperate them
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post #129 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^ No glasses but the emitter I am sure is built in. Funny thing about Samsung is the Glasses for the 2011 models do not work with the 2010 I hope this is not the case with Panasonic.

IMO, Panasonic should eventually go with bluetooth glasses too. In my experience it has been a great convenience item with remote controls and would also allow a person to lay their head back or to the side and not worry about line-of-sight or the reversal of the 3D image. It could also be backwards compatible - keeping the current infra-red technology.

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post #130 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:33 AM
 
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The ST30 is the successor to the S2, no?

So how is going backwards from .008 to .013 (LG, panny 2008) black levels, justifiable in 2011?

A lot of people here have ragged on lg for having bad blacks, yet when panasonic goes backwards in tech, it is somehow fine? Biased much?

Its 2011, .013 mll is awful, especially considering that its predecessor, the S2, had much better blacks (but a worse AR filter).

Hopefully for Panny fans they are somehow limiting the ST30's blacks to give the GT30 more reason to buy. Otherwise, this is unacceptable in 2011.
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post #131 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

The ST30 is the successor to the S2, no?

So how is going backwards from .008 to .013 (LG, panny 2008) black levels, justifiable in 2011?

A lot of people here have ragged on lg for having bad blacks, yet when panasonic goes backwards in tech, it is somehow fine? Biased much?

Its 2011, .013 mll is awful, especially considering that its predecessor, the S2, has much better blacks.

Did you read the part where he says that difference between VT25 and ST30 blacks are small?

"Blacks are slightly darker on VT25. Overall preference is a toss-up. Slightly prefer fleshtones and blacks on VT25, but prefer shadow detail and more natural clouds/whites on ST30."

When the low end 2011 TV has similar performance to last years top model, no one is going to complain. From the look of it, it seems like the blacks on the ST30 are orders of magnitude better than the ones of the S2, so no, Panasonic hasn't gone "backwards".
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post #132 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

Did you read the part where he says that difference between VT25 and ST30 blacks are small?

"Blacks are slightly darker on VT25. Overall preference is a toss-up. Slightly prefer fleshtones and blacks on VT25, but prefer shadow detail and more natural clouds/whites on ST30."

When the low end 2011 TV has similar performance to last years top model, no one is going to complain. From the look of it, it seems like the blacks on the ST30 is orders of magnitude better than the ones of the S2, so no, Panasonic hasn't gone "backwards".

I trust Chad's reviews. Maybe we need more clarification.

.004 to .013 is not small. There has to be a reason the difference wasnt that different. Was he comparing them with light hitting them?, because of course they would have similar blacks. In a dark room, .004 mll is very noticable from .013 mll.


The other reason could be the Vt25 could have rose to lessen its blacks in comparison to the ST30.
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post #133 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:47 AM
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Do you people ever talk about anything besides bleeping black levels? Just buy whatever set you want, then spray paint gloss black all over the screen. Don't forget to get it nice and uniform, and maybe go with a matte black if you have alot of direct sunlight.

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post #134 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sadmaker View Post

Do you people ever talk about anything besides bleeping black levels? Just buy whatever set you want, then spray paint gloss black all over the screen. Don't forget to get it nice and uniform, and maybe go with a matte black if you have alot of direct sunlight.

Black levels are the most important part of attaining the best picture quality = contrast.

So no, nobody ever will stop talking about them on a enthusiast site like this.
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post #135 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

.004 to .013 is not small. There has to be a reason the difference wasnt that different. Was he comparing them with light hitting them?, because of course they would have similar blacks. In a dark room, .004 mll is very noticable from .013 mll.


The other reason could be the Vt25 could have rose to lessen its blacks in comparison to the ST30.

He did the comparison in moderate lighting. I've seen the VT25, G25 and S2 compared side by side and can tell you that the blacks on the S2 are noticeably different than the ones on the VT25 with moderate lighting. If the ST30 is in the ballpark of the VT25, then Panasonic hasn't gone backwards. Also, we could wait for others with different meters to measure the black level to be sure.
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post #136 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

Black levels are the most important part of attaining the best picture quality = contrast.

So no, nobody ever will stop talking about them on a enthusiast site like this.

Did you also read his ANSI contrast measurement? MUCH higher than the S2.
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post #137 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 09:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

He did the comparison in moderate lighting. I've seen the VT25, G25 and S2 compared side by side and can tell you that the blacks on the S2 are noticeably different than the ones on the VT25 with moderate lighting. If the ST30 is in the ballpark of the VT25, then Panasonic hasn't gone backwards. Also, we could wait for others with different meters to measure the black level to be sure.

Okay so he did the comparison in a dark room? That explains why they have similar blacks. It will however have worse blacks in a dark room compared to the S2.
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post #138 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:14 AM
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I too am very curious about the input lag on this set.

Gosh! at the black levels tho ..

If they are stable in regards to floating as chad said .. and they are baked in as well then it seems ok tho i guess ..
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post #139 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

Black levels are the most important part of attaining the best picture quality = contrast.

So no, nobody ever will stop talking about them on a enthusiast site like this.

Enthusiast? I'd go with anal retentive. I get that black levels are critical, but for what seems like 99% of responses harping on some .013 measurement(or just a portion of his overall review) is absurd. Chad specifically mentioned he could see no difference in blacks between the VT25 and ST30 with actual program material, but lets ignore that altogether lol. Completely glossed over was the fact that he mentioned grain free, detailed pq, STABLE blacks, and unfortunately imperfect colors.

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post #140 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sadmaker View Post

Enthusiast? I'd go with anal retentive. Completely glossed over was the fact that he mentioned grain free, detailed pq, and unfortunately imperfect colors.

Chad specifically mentioned he could see no difference in blacks between the VT25 and ST30 with actual program material, but lets ignore that altogether lol.

But he was comparing with moderate light. With no light I am sure someone with his great experience will easily detect a difference. I am glad it has improved in many areas, but going back to .013 is a strange and disappointing move.
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post #141 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadmaker View Post

Enthusiast? I'd go with anal retentive. I get that black levels are critical, but for what seems like 99% of responses harping on some .013 measrement is absurd. Chad specifically mentioned he could see no difference in blacks between the VT25 and ST30 with actual program material, but lets ignore that altogether lol. Completely glossed over was the fact that he mentioned grain free, detailed pq, and unfortunately imperfect colors.

What it comes down to is some amazing tv's are coming out. They will not have this and that, but amazing compared to what we where all watching 10 years ago Coming down to the point where there really is no wrong answer out there.....
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post #142 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

But he was comparing with moderate light. With no light I am sure someone with his great experience will easily detect a difference. I am glad it has improved in many areas, but going back to .013 is a strange and disappointing move.

You're missing the point. Chad said himself that in a dark room you can see the difference between a VT25 and an ST30 with a dark screen. He said however that in his moderate light setting, there were no discernible differences between the VT25 and ST30 black levels on content. That alone tells me the ST30's blacks are better than the S2s, because as I previously mentioned, I've seen the S2 compared against the VT25, and you can easily tell the difference in black level between the two. You don't need a meter to tell the difference.
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post #143 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxHoosierdaddy View Post

But he was comparing with moderate light. With no light I am sure someone with his great experience will easily detect a difference. I am glad it has improved in many areas, but going back to .013 is a strange and disappointing move.

He also said his meter is probably not the most accurate way down below .01. Does anyone read? It was one person's measurement from one meter which probably isn't the most accurate at those levels. From what I understand it takes a VERY expensive meter to be accurate when measuring that low.

But let's all keep obsessing about it.
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post #144 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:43 AM
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thank you Chad for the excellent review!

can't wait to see more of your upcoming Plasma reviews!!
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post #145 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

You're missing the point. Chad said himself that in a dark room you can see the difference between a VT25 and an ST30 with a dark screen. He said however that in his moderate light setting, there were no discernible differences between the VT25 and ST30 black levels on content. That alone tells me the ST30's blacks are better than the S2s, because as I previously mentioned, I've seen the S2 compared against the VT25, and you can easily tell the difference in black level between the two. You don't need a meter to tell the difference.

This is why Panasonic is smart: they're improving the filter technology and light output because they know that's what'll sell tvs. If the ST's look great in a showroom that will move them. That's Panasonic's top priority, not dark room black levels. The S2 wouldn't be far off from the VT25 in black level in a dark room with mixed content, similar to the ST30, and because of the crappy filter a room with any ambient light would make the VT25 the clear winner.

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post #146 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:49 AM
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" ST30 has a mild soap opera look, with pans looking a little too smoothed out; not as bad as a typical LCD, but enough to take away some of the feel of film. Overall, VT25 looks far more natural."

this is disturbing to me ..

sounds to me like some added image processing ..

the mild soap opera effect alone is disturbing .. further is the fact that additional image processing negatively effects input lag ..

if this set has significantly lower input lag compared to the gt then i guess ima have to scramble for a 2010 g or gt model ..

i hope not .. cuz the clean grain free look chad mentioned has my hopes high .. despite the black levels ..
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post #147 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Spanky View Post

" ST30 has a mild “soap opera” look, with pans looking a little too smoothed out; not as bad as a typical LCD, but enough to take away some of the feel of film. Overall, VT25 looks far more natural."

this is disturbing to me ..

sounds to me like some added image processing ..

the mild soap opera effect alone is disturbing .. further is the fact that additional image processing negatively effects input lag ..

if this set has significantly lower input lag compared to the gt then i guess ima have to scramble for a 2010 g or gt model ..

i hope not .. cuz the clean grain free look chad mentioned has my hopes high .. despite the black levels ..

You can turn of the Cinema Smooth off. By default, its on low. Look a the last paragraph of his review, here's an excerpt:

"There is a selection for motion smoother on ST30; it was on weak. Turning it off eliminates soap opera effect and shimmering/blocking artifacts. Interestingly, motion is still slightly smoother with 1080P/24 on ST30 than on VT25 with 96Hz mode on. Motion with 1080i is similar."

And I'm confused, why would lower input lag make you "scramble" for a 2010 model? Lower is better.
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post #148 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by david437 View Post

Sry chadb but that blacklevel you measured seams way too high considering that the VT25 series were measured at 0.004fl (ok, with floating and rising blacks)...
I would expect at least 0.004fl blacks from the ST series. I hope your readings are wrong because if not good work panasonic...

That's a little crazy. I'll admit that I among many others assumed the infinite black 2 would be the same thing as the infinite black pro from 2010. So the expectation was that the st would have .004 mil. Now that I think about it though, that's crazy. Panny would never release their entry level 3D with the same blacks as last years top end. It would cause a riot.

Now I do agree that .013 seems pretty high. So there are one of 2 things that must be going on. One is that chad's reading is off from the "norm." if his vt25 read at .01 than one could conclude this st was really around .007-8. Two is that panny couldn't fix the rise so they ship them already risen. Both could be likely but when Chad could visually see the difference in black level between the st and the already risen vt25, than the .013 makes since. The eye can't tell the difference between .002 or .003 mil. So if he could tell by eye and the vt was around .008 or .009 it would make since that the st was where it was.

What seems clear is that the processing is way better. The shadows are better. The whites are better. But the blacks aren't as good and the colors are dull and flat. So enter the vt30, thx and infinite black pro 2. Should be a jackpot. makes me sad to be a vt25 owner. But then again, I can't go bigger than 50" and I'd rather a vt25 over a gt30.
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post #149 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

You can turn of the Cinema Smooth off. By default, its on low. Look a the last paragraph of his review, here's an excerpt:

"There is a selection for motion smoother on ST30; it was on weak. Turning it off eliminates soap opera effect and shimmering/blocking artifacts. Interestingly, motion is still slightly smoother with 1080P/24 on ST30 than on VT25 with 96Hz mode on. Motion with 1080i is similar."

hahah .. i was just about to post that exact quote ..

i went back and found it but when i came back to this page you edited it in .. lol ..

yeah thanks man .. i feel better now
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post #150 of 8450 Old 03-06-2011, 10:56 AM
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hahah .. i was just about to post that exact quote ..

i went back and found it but you edited it in .. lol ..

yeah thanks man .. i feel better now

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