Official Panasonic 2011 TC-PxxST30 Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

And I'm confused, why would lower input lag make you "scramble" for a 2010 model? Lower is better.

i meant higher .. ofc .. but you knew what i meant ..

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Don't you just love ninja like stealth edits?

heheheh
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post #152 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:05 AM
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oh no !!

even the fact that this smoothing feature is on the tv at all could mean worse input lag i think ..

im thinking here of how bad my samsung led (yes i know they are known for horrible input lag) input lag was even with all extra image processing turned off ..

perhaps the simple inclusion of the feature will negatively impact input lag .. regardless of whether or not it is turned on ..

i sure hope not .. GOSH !!
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post #153 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:09 AM
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We already have one guy who bought the S30 at Best Buy and was raving how great the gaming on it was, even with non-game mode turned on.

So, I think you are getting far too excited for nothing.

The bigger concern is that this panel, which is in all the top end TVs does not look spectacular on paper. I am particularly troubled by the lower than expected brightness level, colors being slightly off and under-saturated and of course the black level that is even worse than what sets last year would be after their black level tripled (and we still don't know if the black level will triple on these new sets because other than one Panasonic group in Japan saying it was fixed, no one else will confirm that from Panasonic).
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post #154 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

We already have one guy who bought the S30 at Best Buy and was raving how great the gaming on it was, even with non-game mode turned on.

So, I think you are getting far too excited for nothing.

The bigger concern is that this panel, which is in all the top end TVs does not look spectacular on paper. I am particularly troubled by the lower than expected brightness level, colors being slightly off and under-saturated and of course the black level that is even worse than what sets last year would be after their black level tripled (and we still don't know if the black level will triple on these new sets because other than one Panasonic group in Japan saying it was fixed, no one else will confirm that from Panasonic).

yeah ..

if the the black levels arent baked in then there is no way in hell im buying this tv ..

the color issue is also disturbing to me .. flat colors and off skin tones .. yuck ..

i see that the vast majority of posts in this thread are about those issues tho .. so im trying to focus on something different ..

input lag is important to me ..

less than good input lag is a deal breaker .. plain and simple ..
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post #155 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:15 AM
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I think Panasonic knows that input lag being far better than LCD/LED sets is a big sell factor for their PDPs so they would be pretty stupid to mess with something that is working well.

On the plus side the floating blacks and false countering are fixed.

I could probably live with .013 MLL since I don't do much (any) viewing in total black conditions, but if that MLL is also going to go up by 3X that is a total deal breaker for me. I have the VT30 on pre-order and the fact that it uses this same panel is troubling.

Panasonic needs to remember that they charge us a premium for these sets, so we do expect improvements every year. Seeing more subdued colors, mediocre light level outputs and mediocre black levels is fine for a mass market TV that is going to be priced to complete with Samsung and LG sets, but it is totally unacceptable in high end sets that command premium prices.
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post #156 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:21 AM
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Should I return the gt24?
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post #157 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I think Panasonic knows that input lag being far better than LCD/LED sets is a big sell factor for their PDPs so they would be pretty stupid to mess with something that is working well.

On the plus side the floating blacks and false countering are fixed.

I could probably live with .013 MLL since I don't do much (any) viewing in total black conditions, but if that MLL is also going to go up by 3X that is a total deal breaker for me. I have the VT30 on pre-order and the fact that it uses this same panel is troubling.

Panasonic needs to remember that they charge us a premium for these sets, so we do expect improvements every year. Seeing more subdued colors, mediocre light level outputs and mediocre black levels is fine for a mass market TV that is going to be priced to complete with Samsung and LG sets, but it is totally unacceptable in high end sets that command premium prices.

the false contouring and grain fix in the st models is suggestive of further image processing tho .. or it could be ..

perhaps the tv uses superior albeit more complex dithering algorithms that give a sharper cleaner picture .. but at the cost of a slightly added processing time ..

yeah .. i know im getting carried away here and should probably rest my worries until someone can post some input lag results ..
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post #158 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

Should I return the gt24?

sounds like that might be a premature decision at this point ..

that is unless you are going to run out of return time imminently ..
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post #159 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

Should I return the gt24?

Based on this review, No. The GT24/25 has better colors/blacks/light output/etc.... But if you are having any issues with your GT24/25 (like I know a few have) then the ST would not be a bad replacement.
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post #160 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post


After calibration (VT25 THX 96Hz, ST30 cinema, both calibrated to 36 fL, room mostly dark):
[/i][indent] There is a selection for motion smoother on ST30; it was on weak. Turning it off eliminates soap opera effect and shimmering/blocking artifacts. Interestingly, motion is still slightly smoother with 1080P/24 on ST30 than on VT25 with 96Hz mode on.

This is confusing. Is the ST30 possibly running at 120Hz (5:5) when fed 1080p/24? (If 60Hz without frame interpolation, how can the result be smoother than 96Hz (4:4)??)

If the BD player is toggled from 1080p24 to 1080p60 output is there a visible difference on the ST30?



(ST30 is the 3D-capable model w/ 120Hz right???)

"... we wonÂt be stopping plasma production any time soon. We see it going on for another ten years." -- Kevin Lee, VP, Smart TV Partnerships (Samsung), 1/7/11
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post #161 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by walt73 View Post

This is confusing. Is the ST30 possibly running at 120Hz (5:5) when fed 1080p/24? (If 60Hz without frame interpolation, how can the result be smoother than 96Hz (4:4)??)

I agree. It is confusing.

I don't think Panasonic would cannibalize sales of the VT series by implementing one of its key differentiating features in the lower end models. I wonder what's causing this smoother cadence, though. As I read it, the ST30 is smoother even with all the anti-blur features turned off.
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post #162 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 02:39 PM
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That's a little crazy. I'll admit that I among many others assumed the infinite black 2 would be the same thing as the infinite black pro from 2010. So the expectation was that the st would have .004 mil. Now that I think about it though, that's crazy. Panny would never release their entry level 3D with the same blacks as last years top end. It would cause a riot.

Now I do agree that .013 seems pretty high. So there are one of 2 things that must be going on. One is that chad's reading is off from the "norm." if his vt25 read at .01 than one could conclude this st was really around .007-8. Two is that panny couldn't fix the rise so they ship them already risen. Both could be likely but when Chad could visually see the difference in black level between the st and the already risen vt25, than the .013 makes since. The eye can't tell the difference between .002 or .003 mil. So if he could tell by eye and the vt was around .008 or .009 it would make since that the st was where it was.

What seems clear is that the processing is way better. The shadows are better. The whites are better. But the blacks aren't as good and the colors are dull and flat. So enter the vt30, thx and infinite black pro 2. Should be a jackpot. makes me sad to be a vt25 owner. But then again, I can't go bigger than 50" and I'd rather a vt25 over a gt30.

The V10 has a blacklevel of 0.007 and the S20 of 0.009. As you can see theres not much of a difference in blacklevel between the 2 sets. The V10 was the flagship model while the S20 was the entry level set...
Nice to see that they made overall improvements, but Im viewing my movies in a totally dark room and I need good blacklevels...
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post #163 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 07:15 PM
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I could have sworn I saw it posted somewhere in this forum, but maybe not on this thread as I skimmed through every one just now and couldn't find it...

anyone posted a link to the ST30 owner's manual yet?
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post #164 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg / MO View Post

I could have sworn I saw it posted somewhere in this forum, but maybe not on this thread as I skimmed through every one just now and couldn't find it...

anyone posted a link to the ST30 owner's manual yet?

It's in the 2011 Panasonic Plasma thread. Someone reposted the link in the past few days. Shouldn't be but a page or two back from the end.
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post #165 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg / MO View Post

I could have sworn I saw it posted somewhere in this forum, but maybe not on this thread as I skimmed through every one just now and couldn't find it...

anyone posted a link to the ST30 owner's manual yet?

Go to service.panasonic.com and select manuals, tvs and show all. You will find it there.
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post #166 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 08:19 PM
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Thanks to both of you; much obliged!
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post #167 of 8449 Old 03-06-2011, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg / MO View Post

I could have sworn I saw it posted somewhere in this forum, but maybe not on this thread as I skimmed through every one just now and couldn't find it...

anyone posted a link to the ST30 owner's manual yet?

Here:

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER.../TCP42ST30.PDF

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post #168 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 08:10 AM
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Thanks Randy.

Any idea if they've published the manual for the 60-class set yet? I'm trying to find out how far up the wall I should install my mounting bracket to allow for the bottom edge to clear my center channel on my entertainment center...

Thanks again.
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post #169 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg / MO View Post

Thanks Randy.

Any idea if they've published the manual for the 60-class set yet? I'm trying to find out how far up the wall I should install my mounting bracket to allow for the bottom edge to clear my center channel on my entertainment center...

They have not published any 60" manuals yet. Typically they release the manual a few weeks before the TV becomes available so you might be in for a long wait.

But their manuals never include the actual locations of the wall mounting holes on the back of the TV so it's best to just wait till you have the TV in your possession before pre-installing your mount on the wall. This way you can physically bolt the mount's uprights to the TV then mock up their relation to the wall portion so you know *exactly* where to drill the holes in the wall. When i upgraded my PZ700U to a G10, the bolt holes were about 4 inches lower on the newer TV and i was forced to remove and relocate the wall mount several inches lower on the wall to keep the TV at the same general height. I still haven't gotten around to patching those four abandoned holes in the wall

However - unlike Panasonic's Useless (i mean US) website, their Canadian website has extremely useful line drawings for their various models which do show the location and exact measurements of the bolt pattern on the back of the TV so check there when the 60" models are released.

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post #170 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 10:14 AM
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You da man!
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post #171 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by david437 View Post

Nice to see that they made overall improvements, but I'm viewing my movies in a totally dark room and I need good blacklevels...

You don't use bias lighting?
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post #172 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 11:31 AM
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No, I dont like it...
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post #173 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 01:08 PM
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Game Mode will likely disable this feature (cinema smoothing).

with that said, i know some folks (including myself) like to play with 120hz in games, but the input lag is horrible. i wonder if this set will allow this new cinema motion while playing games, with acceptable levels of input lag.
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post #174 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 06:07 PM
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Well 72 Break in Hours so far on 50ST30, got bored and decided to try some gaming to test for lag. I play Tekken with friends often and can't seem to tell much of a lag with the few rounds I tested. I played an hour of Medal of Honor SP(PS3) couldn't tell of any lag present. I switched between Cinema w/ Motion Smooth on Strong and Off and did the same with Game Mode. Either my eyes aren't as sensitive as before or this set is a winner for gaming. I can't wait for break in to be over and see how it should look with a higher contrast. I DL'd the AVS 709 and will probably try my luck on that after 100 mark. Although I'm not that seasoned as far as calibration on any TV so If anyone has any recommendations for Cinema/Custom Mode settings after Breakin I'd appreciate it.
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post #175 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 07:06 PM
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Where did you pick it up from?
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post #176 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 07:19 PM
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Has anyone heard that Best Buy will not be carrying the VT30? I have a deal with them in that they agreed to sell me the "replacement" set to the 65VT25 when it comes out at the same price I payed for the VT25 (Which was dirt cheap!!!) because of the rising blacks I had. I heard that they will not be buying the VT30 series and are only going up to the GT. Can anyone verify this?
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post #177 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 07:33 PM
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I bought mines from bestbuy after sadly returning a defective 50vt25 that they couldn't find a replacement for with in a 50 mile radius. I just tried Black Ops Demo from PSN, on Cinema or Gaming there is little to no difference for lag. I might have to go look for my old Rock Band to test out even more, if not I'll try and compare on parents Sony NX800.
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post #178 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuran View Post

Well 72 Break in Hours so far on 50ST30, got bored and decided to try some gaming to test for lag. I play Tekken with friends often and can't seem to tell much of a lag with the few rounds I tested. I played an hour of Medal of Honor SP(PS3) couldn't tell of any lag present. I switched between Cinema w/ Motion Smooth on Strong and Off and did the same with Game Mode. Either my eyes aren't as sensitive as before or this set is a winner for gaming. I can't wait for break in to be over and see how it should look with a higher contrast. I DL'd the AVS 709 and will probably try my luck on that after 100 mark. Although I'm not that seasoned as far as calibration on any TV so If anyone has any recommendations for Cinema/Custom Mode settings after Breakin I'd appreciate it.

thats great news .. thanks for posting ..

puts my mind at ease while i wait for someone to post some test results ..

anything over about 15 in a fighting game and i noticed it ..

anything over about 30 or so and ill get irritated with fps games ..

i can put up with quite a bit of lag with platformers .. but those i dont play competitively ofc .. so its all in fun ..

i really need to keep my input lag under 30 at the least for my fps play tho ..

even with the input lag as sweet as it is on the gt25 (~15) i did notice a slight drop in my kd ratio in halo reach .. and in general i did notice less split second (clutch) moments going in my favor than on my crt ..

i am used to playing on a crt .. so coming from that everything is laggy a little bit ..

i loved the input lag on my gt tho .. its really as good as its ever gonna get me thinks ..
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post #179 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 07:59 PM
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Has anyone heard that Best Buy will not be carrying the VT30? I have a deal with them in that they agreed to sell me the "replacement" set to the 65VT25 when it comes out at the same price I payed for the VT25 (Which was dirt cheap!!!) because of the rising blacks I had. I heard that they will not be buying the VT30 series and are only going up to the GT. Can anyone verify this?

Magnolia stores will have VT30 but probably not until May. Probably not even in their inventory system yet.
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post #180 of 8449 Old 03-07-2011, 09:07 PM
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Does best buy have a better relationship with samsung than with any other TV manufacturer? Every tv on display is a samsung and every other brand is still packaged in the box and used as display cases for onsale dvd's or xbox bundle packages or set aside away from view.
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