Samsung PNxxD450/PNxxD490 Owners Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #901 of 1860 Old 09-17-2011, 03:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
[quote=datn1zzle;20943802]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

How does the Wii look on this set?...I mean I'm just so pissed right now since my Sony wega 32" CRT SDTV is starting to go wonky. Every 3 minutes the entire screens color/picture will fade with a slight green tint to it...It's very annoying when watching movies and playing videogames....I'd rather get it repaired honestly, or just search for another 32" CRT in the time being until I upgrade next year, but I'm not too sure.


Lag is the main reason why i just can't be bothered to go HD right now. How IS the lag on this set by the way? And of course the color & Black levels? Is it CRT worthy? hehe[/QUO

this tv is really good, especially for the price. i am not sure how the wii will look on it, because even with the hd output it will only show 480p. as far as it being crt worthy lol, it is WAYYYYYY better then crt. YOU WILL LOVE THIS TV. i just need to figure out the 3d issue i am having.

lol well, I'm guessing the D450 can match a top of the lines CRT regarding Color, while offering some great black levels...But the motion is guaranteed to be a bit better on my CRT. Plus 480 will always look better going into 480 than being upscaled to 720p or 1080p

So nope, this plasma can't exactly be waaaay better than a CRT regarding playing the Wii that is. It is, and it isn't in ways. The Widescreen and Progressive scan are absolutely wonderful, but a 480 CRT introduces Zero lag, no scaling and slightly superior motion.
WaveBoy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #902 of 1860 Old 09-17-2011, 04:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Can the Samsung 43D450 produce a bright picture with 'white' whites?
And how is the input lag by the way? Plus do plasma's produce less input Lag than LCD's when gaming?
WaveBoy is offline  
post #903 of 1860 Old 09-17-2011, 05:34 AM
Member
 
Gatsou's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Normandie, FRANCE
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Input lag doesn't have much to do with the TV's technology, some LCD's/LED's have very acceptable input lag, and some plasmas have mediocre lag as well... It's all about picture processing, really, and how fast the TV does it. I own the 51d450, I'm sure the technology being the screen is the same as the 43D450, and I haven't noticed any lag, or at least none that actually can be felt while actually gaming. I've read other posts on this thread about the excellence of this TV in that regard. I play SSFIV a lot, and fighting games are merciless when it comes to input lag, if that's any indication
Gatsou is offline  
post #904 of 1860 Old 09-17-2011, 06:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatsou View Post

Input lag doesn't have much to do with the TV's technology, some LCD's/LED's have very acceptable input lag, and some plasmas have mediocre lag as well... It's all about picture processing, really, and how fast the TV does it. I own the 51d450, I'm sure the technology being the screen is the same as the 43D450, and I haven't noticed any lag, or at least none that actually can be felt while actually gaming. I've read other posts on this thread about the excellence of this TV in that regard. I play SSFIV a lot, and fighting games are merciless when it comes to input lag, if that's any indication

I hear ya regarding Street Fighter. every single precious mila second counts, same deal with any Fighter or retro sidescrollers for that matter lol ;p And I actually use Mega Man 9
on the Wii as the ultimate test for gaming lag, because the controls are so tight, quick and responsive based on how you jump which basically gives you an instant idea right off the bat.

Anyways, and what's the deal with game mode anyways? Based on the sets that I've tried out it made zero difference....And how's the brightness on this set, and are the white's 'white' when set properly?

And finally(eek!) i'm curious about the picture glare.....If it's the same as a typical CRT, or like my Sony Wega SDTV CRT in my case than that's perfectly fine because my window is covered
in blinds which is right above and behind my TV anyways so there's zero light shining in front of it, hence no picture glare. Hopefully the D450 isn't worse in that regard....

Oh, and are the bars black on the left and right side when playing 4:3 titles?....I've heard last year's C450 had Dark Grey bars....blugh.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #905 of 1860 Old 09-17-2011, 06:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
And here's another quickie before i seal the deal and pick this baby up as a present to myself for my 27nth b-day coming up in a week.

So, I'm guessing for example with the Wii which supports 480p only, would look better being upscaled into 1024x768(which is what the Native res of the 43D450 is)
rather then having to scale much more into 1920x1080p?....I mean, the less scaling the better the picture will look right? Meaning less of a mild blown up effect and jaggies?
WaveBoy is offline  
post #906 of 1860 Old 09-17-2011, 09:54 AM
Newbie
 
donny312's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
@WaveBoy - Not sure this is the right place but I just bought a 450 yesterday at a local Best Buy for $399. It's $500 on their website but random local stores may have it for less.
donny312 is offline  
post #907 of 1860 Old 09-17-2011, 09:38 PM
Member
 
assm0de's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Can the Samsung 43D450 produce a bright picture with 'white' whites?

You can select the Warm1 color preset for pretty accurate whites (D65), or Standard if you prefer more blue "crisp" looking whites, but whites will not be that bright on a full field of white due to the ABL (auto brightness limiter) which all plasmas employ to cut power and heat consumption when the picture level goes past a certain point (which is around ~50% on the D450). That means once the screen is, on average, covered with 50% of full intensity, dimming comes into effect. It's not too bad though, I play Forza 3 which has full field white menus and it still looks fine there

Just keep in mind with sunlight in the room the brightness won't be very high due to the lack of screen filtering and as such this TV should be aimed primarily for controlled lighting conditions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

And how is the input lag by the way? Plus do plasma's produce less input Lag than LCD's when gaming?

Input lag is perfect in Game mode, and still very good in Movie mode. I actually use Movie mode for gaming because the white balance and gamma is better in it. The input lag feels like around 30ms in Movie mode, and less in Game. I haven't measured it but I can say that I've gamed on Samsung LCD's in game mode which are measured at 46ms input lag and those are unacceptable to me. I believe it's the MStar processor on the cheaper series 4/5 TV's that have this lower input lag compared to the 6/7/8 series which have the Valencia processor.

Here are some pros and cons after owning the 51D450 for a few days.

Pros
-very quiet, no noticeable buzzing from any angle
-very little line bleed
-not a single brightness "pop"/fluctuation yet (and I am very sensitive to this kind of thing)
-no phosphor trail and excellent motion resolution
-screen uniformity is excellent
-seems impervious to image retention, even after a 3 hour calibration session with nothing but white windows on the center of the screen.
-low input lag
-half decent sound quality

Cons
-screen is reflective
-there is lowpass filtering of the internal TV tuner, and SD over HDMI. That means it cannot resolve all the resolution in those sources. Component video is unaffected however.
-very difficult to calibrate due to issues with gamma tracking at 80-90 IRE. On my unit Cell light, Contrast and RGB Gains must be so carefully balanced to ensure gamma remains flat at 80-90 IRE. A couple of clicks too high or too low and the gamma goes bad at 80-90.
-my i1D2 is not reading color properly from it. It's reading too much blue, producing a yellow white balance, so I can't calibrate it properly. Judging by eye Warm1 looks the most neutral, so I am using that.
-Skin tones don't look quite right. On certain bright skin tones there can be an orange intensity to them, on dark tones it can look a bit green and pale.
assm0de is offline  
post #908 of 1860 Old 09-18-2011, 12:27 AM
Member
 
assm0de's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Has anyone tried changing their model to D7000 in the service menu? I wonder if that would unlock 10 point white balance? Would be awesome if it did. I'm not really game enough to try it though
assm0de is offline  
post #909 of 1860 Old 09-18-2011, 01:27 PM
Member
 
Brian Day's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Is one of the HDMI inputs on the 490 set up for ARC? Damn it's hard to find any info on this panel unless you come here - diddly squat available over here in Blighty!
Brian Day is offline  
post #910 of 1860 Old 09-18-2011, 05:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Thanks for the super detailed response assmOde!
Yet what about when displaying 4:3 video game content on the D450? Does it have black bars on the left and right part of the screen or are they instead a shade of grey? Because if they're grey that would be a giant turn off for me. ;p

Anyways, I've been playing around with my friends LG 37" HL350(from 2009) 1080p LCD for the past couple of days, for hours just fiddling with the settings and messing around with Wii, PS3 and Bluray/dvd movies....Right off the bat, the motion isn't quite on par with my CRT which is expected with any new LCD, since there's a bit of blur noticable when an object or character moves in the background and yadah yadah. But it was still pretty good nonetheless.

plus the colors aren't quite as good either. I had to max the color to up 100, while setting one of the Color options in the advanced menu to 'Wide' to get a somewhat simular effect to my CRT.....
But amping Dyamic color to low or high made the color absolutely fantastic for cartoons that is such as Pixar films and certain video games...Too bad it crushed and completely destroyed a lot of detail in the process which makes it a win/lose situation.lol And the Black levels aren't bad at all actually, and are pretty close to my CRT, but other than that it's a pretty great LCD and i was blown away by how tiny the lag was.....it's practically unoticable. XD

Then again, isn't LG known for having the least amount of LAG for their LCD's?

Anyways I'm down to either the Samsung 43D450 Plasma or maybe the LG42LK520 1080p LCD.
I mean at 9.5 feet 'eye distance wise' when looking at a 43" 720 HDTV would the difference between 1024x768p and 1080p even be noticable? I keep getting different answers.
Plus, wouldn't wii games(which are 480p) look better being upscaled to 720p rather than 1080p? since I'm guessing the less scaling the better the picture will look. Then again, Wii games look pixel perfect on this 1080p LCD when displayed in 4:3 since the Wii games use anamorphic wide screen which makes the games look a bit soft and not as sharp/clear & crisp.

But really, I'm guessing you guys will shoot down that LG LCD i mentioned regarding the Color and Motion when stacked up the Sammy D450 hehe. I don't even know why i'm considering an LCD if the first place. what do you guys think?

And finally, all of this reflective screen talk has me worried?...exactly, how reflective IS the screen? I mean I'm used to my Sony 32" Wega CRT trinitron SDTV and when watching movies or playing game i have zero picture glare. Is the D450's glare comparable to a CRT?
WaveBoy is offline  
post #911 of 1860 Old 09-18-2011, 07:56 PM
Member
 
assm0de's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Yet what about when displaying 4:3 video game content on the D450? Does it have black bars on the left and right part of the screen or are they instead a shade of grey? Because if they're grey that would be a giant turn off for me. ;p

In the setup menu you can choose whether you want the bars to be black or gray.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

I mean at 9.5 feet 'eye distance wise' when looking at a 43" 720 HDTV would the difference between 1024x768p and 1080p even be noticable? I keep getting different answers.

At 9.5 feet you shouldn't be able to tell any difference because of visual acuity at that distance. See here: http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter


Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Plus, wouldn't wii games(which are 480p) look better being upscaled to 720p rather than 1080p? since I'm guessing the less scaling the better the picture will look.

It won't make any difference what it's upscaled to. What matters is whether the TV is deliberately blurring (low pass filtering) the signal to try and smooth it out. Unfortunately the 51D450 does this to the internal TV tuner and SD over HDMI. All other sources are fine though (i.e 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i).

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

I don't even know why i'm considering an LCD if the first place. what do you guys think?

LCD's aren't bad. The only problem I have with them is the gamma shift when you move a bit off center and the input lag. The lowest input lag LCD I could find when researching TV's was the Sony 40" EX520/720 in game mode (31ms) but I didn't like the viewing angles on it so I went with the 51D450 as it was a lot cheaper too, and of course much bigger

The 51D450 is an excellent TV for the money. My only real issue with it is the skin tones are not right on it, even after calibration in Movie mode. Whenever there are skin tones within a certain low luminance range they become very pale, almost colorless, and tinted greenish. It is really strange because I had the exact same problem on an older TV, a Panasonic 50PX80 from 2008. I know it is not a source problem because I compared it side by side with my old CRT with the Tivo outputting the same signal to both of them, and the difference in skin tone is huge. I think it might be an issue with saturation or luminance of the red or yellow part of the gamut at low luminance as I was measuring the color of yellow from 0-25% stimulus and it was heavily under saturated. Perhaps if I can adjust luminance or saturation of yellow in the service menu this might help. Does anyone know how to access those controls in the service menu as I couldn't find them? I know they are in there I just can't find them. Maybe Grimmy84 knows?

edit: fixed link
assm0de is offline  
post #912 of 1860 Old 09-18-2011, 09:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by assm0de View Post

In the setup menu you can choose whether you want the bars to be black or gray.




At 9.5 feet you shouldn't be able to tell any difference because of visual acuity at that distance. See here: http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter




It won't make any difference what it's upscaled to. What matters is whether the TV is deliberately blurring (low pass filtering) the signal to try and smooth it out. Unfortunately the 51D450 does this to the internal TV tuner and SD over HDMI. All other sources are fine though (i.e 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i).



LCD's aren't bad. The only problem I have with them is the gamma shift when you move a bit off center and the input lag. The lowest input lag LCD I could find when researching TV's was the Sony 40" EX520/720 in game mode (31ms) but I didn't like the viewing angles on it so I went with the 51D450 as it was a lot cheaper too, and of course much bigger

The 51D450 is an excellent TV for the money. My only real issue with it is the skin tones are not right on it, even after calibration in Movie mode. Whenever there are skin tones within a certain low luminance range they become very pale, almost colorless, and tinted greenish. It is really strange because I had the exact same problem on an older TV, a Panasonic 50PX80 from 2008. I know it is not a source problem because I compared it side by side with my old CRT with the Tivo outputting the same signal to both of them, and the difference in skin tone is huge. I think it might be an issue with saturation or luminance of the red or yellow part of the gamut at low luminance as I was measuring the color of yellow from 0-25% stimulus and it was heavily under saturated. Perhaps if I can adjust luminance or saturation of yellow in the service menu this might help. Does anyone know how to access those controls in the service menu as I couldn't find them? I know they are in there I just can't find them. Maybe Grimmy84 knows?

edit: fixed link

Well, the Wii for example would be hooked up using component cables and being displayed in 480p, while my PS3 would be hooked up via HDMI set at 720p so I'm guessing I'm blur free considering i wouldn't be running any SD content through my PS3....then again, I'm guessing certain DVD's that contain cartoons(for ex) episodes are in fact running in SD. Maybe increasing the sharpness to a certain amount in a different Setting/mode may do the job.

As for the internal TV tuner, i rarely watch tv in this day and age so I could care less...i miss the cartoons and brillliant shows of the 80's and early 90's. I usually just buy all of that kind of stuff on DVD anyways.

But that really sucks about the skin tone problem....I mean I'm a bit anal when it comes to this kind of stuff, so it might even throw me off a bit. I mean I'm leaning towards the 43D450, but I'm still not completely sold yet.
Also, i'm suprised to hear about the wonky skin tone color accuracy, i thought everybody was raving about the color?

I wonder how LG's 42" 720p or 1080p 2011's fair in comparison? All I know is Panasonic is out of the question, the X3 is apparently crap, the S30 is just decent, while the ST30 is good...But the previous 2 are out of my price range anyways.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #913 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 09:23 AM
Member
 
assm0de's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post
Also, i'm suprised to hear about the wonky skin tone color accuracy, i thought everybody was raving about the color?
Yeah, the thing with this TV is it has a great set of calibration controls needed to produce accurate color, and the white balance, gamma and gamut charts will read near perfect, but there is stuff going on with certain ranges of colors that are not being produced properly. I think I've nailed it down to a problem with a lack of red in the 10-20 IRE range of skin colors. This is quite noticeable on dimly lit scenes where parts of an actors face will be normal skin color but on the darker shadowy part of their face it turns a pale sickly green, almost colorless. I've tried increasing red bias to compensate, but it doesn't help because it adds red to all colors in the low end, and not just the "trouble" shades.

Couple of photos of it:



That's not my camera giving his face a sickly green tint, that's what it actually looks like. The scene is almost unwatchable.

I'm thinking of changing the model to D550 or D7000 in the service menu and see if that helps things. But then again I don't really want to brick it. Has anyone with a D450 successfully changed their model in the service menu? I know people have upgraded D550's to D7000. I think the D450 and D550 share the same MStar processor so it should be possible.
assm0de is offline  
post #914 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 09:27 AM
Member
 
assm0de's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post
I'm guessing I'm blur free considering i wouldn't be running any SD content through my PS3....then again, I'm guessing certain DVD's that contain cartoons(for ex) episodes are in fact running in SD.
The PS3 will be upscaling it to HD so you should be fine there. It's only SD signals through the tuner and HDMI that is affected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post
Maybe increasing the sharpness to a certain amount in a different Setting/mode may do the job.
Unfortunately not, as the picture I posted on the previous page shows a grey box where there would normally be alternating black and white lines one pixel thick. Once the detail is blurred out there's no getting it back with increasing sharpness.
assm0de is offline  
post #915 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 09:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Oh man, i definitly see what you mean... And the thing is, if I'm not completely satisfyed I can always return it.
As for gaming aside from movies, i'm guessing Plasma is still my best bet considering I'll be getting better color and motion compared to LCD?

I mean I can basically get any TV at Cost plus 5% off, so I'd be saving over $100 on the 43D450. I mean I'm almost down to get it, but i keep thinking
the picture glare may be too distracting if it really is worse than CRT....For me, I've got zero glare for my CRT when i watch or play games even during the day when it's sunny.
Hopefully the glare regarding the D450 isn't more extreme.

And also, what about burn in? Don't these white wash modes correct that? For ex, I'd be playing Super Mario Galaxy 2 for 2 hours straight with the Life/Star icons
being static in the corners, would that be alright? I mean if you had to pick between the 43D450 or any 40-42" LCD on the market in the same price range, which would you choose?
WaveBoy is offline  
post #916 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 09:53 AM
Member
 
assm0de's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

I mean if you had to pick between the 43D450 or any 40-42" LCD on the market in the same price range, which would you choose?

It depends entirely on whether they all have the skin tone problem. That is really my only complaint with the D450.
assm0de is offline  
post #917 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 10:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by assm0de View Post

It depends entirely on whether they all have the skin tone problem. That is really my only complaint with the D450.

What about the motion handling? Aside from the color that's my only other gripe with LCD's when stacked up to plasma.
Right now I'm basically torn between the Sammy 43D450 or the Sammy 2011 40" 1080p Series 5 LCD....
WaveBoy is offline  
post #918 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 11:09 AM
Newbie
 
datn1zzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
does any one have issues with the 51d490 and the 3d pop out? i noticed most things dont tend to pop out when they are supposed to. i seen a passive lg tv with the 3d and it looked amazing.
datn1zzle is offline  
post #919 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 06:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
And I'm guessing the D450 can't match the brightness of something like the LG42LK450 1080p LCD or Samsung LN40555. I mean that's honestly the only real pro for me regarding LCD aside from having no picture glare. The cell light when amped up just createst this wonderful bright picture....

Can the D450 match the brightness?
WaveBoy is offline  
post #920 of 1860 Old 09-19-2011, 11:06 PM
Member
 
assm0de's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Can the D450 match the brightness?

No, but it depends on how bright you like your picture. Personally I like 140cd/m2 peak brightness and the D450 achieves that easily on a white window. But of course when the picture level reaches past 50% the brightness limiter really kicks in and you lose a lot of brightness. So it really depends on the scene you are watching and how bright it is. LCD will always have the advantage of much higher brightness and no dimming at high picture levels. On the other hand LCD's tend to use auto dimming at low picture levels to improve the black level, and on the Samsung LCD's you can't turn it off. But I don't personally find that bothersome. The only thing that bothers me about LCD is the viewing angle. I don't want my gamma decreasing by .1-.2 when I move 30 degrees off center.
assm0de is offline  
post #921 of 1860 Old 09-20-2011, 04:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by assm0de View Post

No, but it depends on how bright you like your picture. Personally I like 140cd/m2 peak brightness and the D450 achieves that easily on a white window. But of course when the picture level reaches past 50% the brightness limiter really kicks in and you lose a lot of brightness. So it really depends on the scene you are watching and how bright it is. LCD will always have the advantage of much higher brightness and no dimming at high picture levels. On the other hand LCD's tend to use auto dimming at low picture levels to improve the black level, and on the Samsung LCD's you can't turn it off. But I don't personally find that bothersome. The only thing that bothers me about LCD is the viewing angle. I don't want my gamma decreasing by .1-.2 when I move 30 degrees off center.



I like my picture with the cell light maxed to 100%, with the Black level set to low(since setting it to high lights up the black levels by a margin, it's kind of pointless really consideirng you already have the cell light and brightness to play around with to get what you want regardless. ;p)

Plus, i set the brightness to around 70-ish depending, seems once you go past 79 on my current set the black levels start to get lighter. and this is the thing.....The picture and the fact that this plasma can not match the brightness of my current LG37LH30, along with having to put up with the picture glare(depending) would kind of irk me.

I think, my choices are narrowed down to the newer 2011 1080p LG32LK450 or the Samsung 1080p LN40550 LCD.....But I'm getting next to no help from the LCD forum, since my threads seem to vanish off the face of the earth.

I am i'm practically completely satisfyed with my current set, yet it's the color for gaming that i wish would be a smidge better for the vivid and bright colorful titles such as Super Mario Galaxy and the like. I literally have to max the color to 100, set the color to wide to achieve somethings that's maybe close to my current CRT, But this where dynamic color comes into play. But like i said it destroys certain detail, patterns and the like. so it's best just to set it at low.

I'm curious as to weather the LG32LK450 has superior color to the 2009 LGLH30. And one thing is for sure, ya maybe my sony wega CRT has a bit superior in the color, motion and having no lag department but yikes does it look crummy, less engaging, and unspectacular compared to the LGLH30 when gaming...Bust be the Black frame, the awesome progressive scan and having that amazing widescreen which opens up a whole new world to gaming, and of course the brightness/vividness which destroys my CRT.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #922 of 1860 Old 09-20-2011, 09:36 AM
Member
 
Jefe21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
So has anyone figured out how to avoid these IR problems? I can control my receiver and TV fine but the Comcast HD Cable Box gets interference from the TV. I have been covering up the IR on the Comcast box which worked for a while but its getting intermittent again. If I turn the TV off, I can control the Comcast box fine, as soon as the TV is on it interferes with the remote control. Ive tried the Comcast remote and my new Acoustic Research remote. Id rather not have a piece of paper covering up a sensor, any ideas? Cant find the IR on the TV frame either
Jefe21 is offline  
post #923 of 1860 Old 09-20-2011, 02:45 PM
Member
 
Grimmy84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
assm0de: I recognize your problem with the color tone at low end luminance. I do not think this is really a color decoder problem but a problem with white balance related to gamma response.

As I have understood it, this is a gamma problem and an artifact that comes with trying to get the gamma curve flat at 2.2. Since the set has an inherent "s-haped" gamma curve, if you push it to much to get it flat then weird stuff happens.

First, we all need to agree that (as on almost all TVs!) it is hard to get the 10 and 20 IRE good. My experience with this set is that this is impossible without sacrificing gamma or white balance at the other ends of the range (or adjusting via HTPC). Basically, if you set 20 IRE perfectly everything else will be messed up and vice versa. What you need to do is to make a compromise.

Furthermore, I do not think this set can acheive a 2.2 flat gamma without sacrificing shadow detail OR correct white balance at the lower lever. There will be a tradeoff. You could accept 2.0 gamma the lower end and then all three colors will be in sync, OR you could aim for 2.2 but crush a little shadow detail. Aiming for 2.2. and full shadow detail (e.g., level 17 visible) and you will have problem with greenish faces.

If you upt for more shadow detail then you can get that, but only in the green OR by settling for lower gamma.

Personally, I have settled for an overall gamma of 2.4, with 2.2 gamma at the lower end AND some black crush. The thing is that most older movies will have artificats in the lower ends of the blacks anway. For example, I recently watched Thelma and Louise and with a "properly set" black level (everythning above 16 visible) the movie looks pretty bad. If I instead set black level CRT style (2% should be visible) then it looks much better. Sure I lose some detail on some movies, but really most new movies have black crush anyway since it gives a little pop to the picture.

It is also quite possible to calibrate the set to get an overall gamma of 2.2, but then you will get gamma around 1.9 in the low IRE.

I have no problems with my eye-one-display and it agrees with my eyes and I am quite confident that i can spot an inccurate dispaly. My computer monitor is an IPS and it is quite accurate (more so than the TV) so it is hardly like I have some weird preference.

I do have noticed that the meter will react diffrently depending on how warm the set is, so be sure to leave your tv on for half an hour WITH the meter sticked to it before making any measurements. And calibrate your meter after this warm up period.

Anyway, the gamma and white balance problem boils down to that this set does not have equal gamma for the three colors. This makes it quite diffucult to find the optimal setting because the brightness and contrast setting WILL affect the distrubution of red green and blue. Typically, increase contrast will mostly increase green, then red and then blue. Furthermore, for some reason, the color setting will also affect this. This inter-change between these settings can drive you nuts since it is not supposed to be this way!

In my experience, the best color setting that do not introduce a lot of other problems is one where red is spot on and blue has too high luminance. This will actually compensate (why I am not sure!) to some extent for the set's tendency of a higher gamma for blue. If you set color by setting blue right, then you will have a hard time getting a good picture. Besides, overintense blue is not nearly as bad as overintense red or green IMO.

I think a little bit reasoning of why this happen with plasmas is important. Most LCDs get a blue tint in the lower IRE and it is not possible to get rid with. Plasma on the other hand tend to have a lower gamma for green than for red and blue. In essence, this means that greens comes out quicker from black then the other colors and if black details are "pushed" to hard then you will mostly get green.

This means that exaggerating blue and red is an easy way to get a picture that always looks OK. Hence, Warm 1 is a good "safe" bet to get an "ok" picture.

However, it becomes harder to get them correct all the way and you will typically have to settle for a little too blue and a little to red (or a little to much of them both) across the range to get the lower IRE correct. Personally, I really HATE the green zombie-look in low IRE that u will get if you simply adjust 80 IRE to be perfect and not account for contrast, gamma etc.

If you have not already, check the gamma curves for each color individually and you may understand how this set works.

Anyway, for those who do not have a meter to fool around with, choosing warm 1 or warm 2 will be pretty ok across the whole range if they set black level correct. Their gamma will be quite s-shaped, but you wont get the weird skin tones that at lower IRE that you can get when trying to get the gamma curve flat.

As final thing to try is color mode native. Altough this color mode is too wide and therefore quite inaccurate, not all people are bother by the oversaturated (as in too wide gamut - not overintense notice the difference!) green and the TV reacts a little bit diffrent in this mode meaning that you might get a better white balance and more consistent saturation (or actually the amount of color relative to white).

Just do be clear, I did also intially have problem with greenish skin tones in low IRE but I have gotten rid of it. Red is still at tiny little bit low at 5% but very good at 10% and 20%. To achive this I had to accept an excess of red at 30 - 50 IRE. With this exepection my delta e are always below 3 and the picture is great. Finally, I would like to stress that I consider the picture I have after calibration to be extremely good, especially for a cheap set like this.

The easiest way to deal with the problem is this:
Set black level like you would on a crt. The extra shadow detail you can get is likely crap in the movies anyway, and will likely (because of the diffrent gamma) quite greeen.

Another simple solution is a htpc where you can easily adjust the gamma response individuall for green blue and red.


Edit:

Need to add that I have not used the set that much in 1080p or 720p but mostly in native resolution (from a htpc or from my xbox) and there MAY be some weird color decoding issue (saturation shift) going on there that is not an issue at native resolution (i adjust my gamut through a shader in media player hc because color mode is foreced to native in this mode).
Grimmy84 is offline  
post #924 of 1860 Old 09-20-2011, 04:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Well, I've decided that I'm definitly going with the 43D450. I just can't pass up Plasma color, the greater contrast & motion when compared
to the LCD's i'm looking at that are in the same price range. I'm sure I can get this picture to pump out a bright beautiful picture with bright whites anyways....At least I'm hoping.lol

I'll be getting one hopefully in 4-5 days. Too bad the sale ends for the 43D450 on the 22nd, since i don't get payed until after that.
Once i get this bad boy hooked up, I'll be sure to post dozens of pics....Be it the Wii(Via Component), along with PS3, Bluray and DVD's via HDMI.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #925 of 1860 Old 09-20-2011, 06:19 PM
Senior Member
 
riffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Well, I've decided that I'm definitly going with the 43D450. I just can't pass up Plasma color, the greater contrast & motion when compared
to the LCD's i'm looking at that are in the same price range. I'm sure I can get this picture to pump out a bright beautiful picture with bright whites anyways....At least I'm hoping.lol

I'll be getting one hopefully in 4-5 days. Too bad the sale ends for the 43D450 on the 22nd, since i don't get payed until after that.
Once i get this bad boy hooked up, I'll be sure to post dozens of pics....Be it the Wii(Via Component), along with PS3, Bluray and DVD's via HDMI.

I ordered one last night on the sale. It seems that every manufacturer has problems, so I just went cheap. I am hoping I get lucky, as I don't want to haul this thing back and forth doing exchanges.
riffer is online now  
post #926 of 1860 Old 09-21-2011, 12:41 AM
Member
 
Grimmy84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Waveboy:

If it is for playing games, you can get about 200 CD/m2 out of it which is quite bright, but you will have a little wonky gamma in the upper end. I doubt this will be a problem in games, but more so in movies. Anyhow, this set is better at producing peak brightness than most plasmas, but have quite extensive white falloff. In essence, this means that all-white images (e.g., hockey) won't be that bright.

The lack of reflective filter still means you need control over room lightning though.
Grimmy84 is offline  
post #927 of 1860 Old 09-21-2011, 04:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimmy84 View Post

Waveboy:

If it is for playing games, you can get about 200 CD/m2 out of it which is quite bright, but you will have a little wonky gamma in the upper end. I doubt this will be a problem in games, but more so in movies. Anyhow, this set is better at producing peak brightness than most plasmas, but have quite extensive white falloff. In essence, this means that all-white images (e.g., hockey) won't be that bright.

The lack of reflective filter still means you need control over room lightning though.

It's for Games and movies, but i think Brightness overall is more important for gaming, especially for colorful titles such as Super Mario Galaxy 2, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Wario Land and the like. And bare with me here, i'm a complete noob when it comes to all of this brightness talk. ;p

How much more would a typical 1080p 2011 LCD in the same price range offer in comparison regarding the Cell Light levels at 'their' peak?

I mean this is the thing....Do i go with an LCD because of it's brighter screen and because it has no picture glare, while putting up with it's weaker color, weaker motion(which drives me nuts at times for movies....It just seems unatural, artifical and distracting to me) and contrast ratio, or do i go with Plasma which beats LCD in both 3 areas 'yet' i have deal with the picture glare and weaker Cell light.

the current LG37LH30 2009 1080p LCD that i have for me pretty much does the deed for gaming, but for movies...The motion blur(it has a 4ms response time) for movies drives me batty.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #928 of 1860 Old 09-21-2011, 05:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Also aside from Warm1 and Warm 2 being part of the Picture temps, is there a Neutral or Cool mode as well?

And I'm guessing the D450 has a Wide Color Plus enhancer, but what about a Dynamic color option?....Then again, I'm guessing it's not even needed.

And because this set is 1024x768, would it be better to set my PS3 at 1080p rather than 720p for Bluray movies?
WaveBoy is offline  
post #929 of 1860 Old 09-21-2011, 06:32 AM
Member
 
tripod39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Blandon.Pa.
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by assm0de View Post

You can select the Warm1 color preset for pretty accurate whites (D65), or Standard if you prefer more blue "crisp" looking whites, but whites will not be that bright on a full field of white due to the ABL (auto brightness limiter) which all plasmas employ to cut power and heat consumption when the picture level goes past a certain point (which is around ~50% on the D450). That means once the screen is, on average, covered with 50% of full intensity, dimming comes into effect. It's not too bad though, I play Forza 3 which has full field white menus and it still looks fine there

Just keep in mind with sunlight in the room the brightness won't be very high due to the lack of screen filtering and as such this TV should be aimed primarily for controlled lighting conditions.




Input lag is perfect in Game mode, and still very good in Movie mode. I actually use Movie mode for gaming because the white balance and gamma is better in it. The input lag feels like around 30ms in Movie mode, and less in Game. I haven't measured it but I can say that I've gamed on Samsung LCD's in game mode which are measured at 46ms input lag and those are unacceptable to me. I believe it's the MStar processor on the cheaper series 4/5 TV's that have this lower input lag compared to the 6/7/8 series which have the Valencia processor.

Here are some pros and cons after owning the 51D450 for a few days.

Pros
-very quiet, no noticeable buzzing from any angle
-very little line bleed
-not a single brightness "pop"/fluctuation yet (and I am very sensitive to this kind of thing)
-no phosphor trail and excellent motion resolution
-screen uniformity is excellent
-seems impervious to image retention, even after a 3 hour calibration session with nothing but white windows on the center of the screen.
-low input lag
-half decent sound quality

Cons
-screen is reflective
-there is lowpass filtering of the internal TV tuner, and SD over HDMI. That means it cannot resolve all the resolution in those sources. Component video is unaffected however.
-very difficult to calibrate due to issues with gamma tracking at 80-90 IRE. On my unit Cell light, Contrast and RGB Gains must be so carefully balanced to ensure gamma remains flat at 80-90 IRE. A couple of clicks too high or too low and the gamma goes bad at 80-90.
-my i1D2 is not reading color properly from it. It's reading too much blue, producing a yellow white balance, so I can't calibrate it properly. Judging by eye Warm1 looks the most neutral, so I am using that.
-Skin tones don't look quite right. On certain bright skin tones there can be an orange intensity to them, on dark tones it can look a bit green and pale.

Guess I'm lucky.Took mine out of box,reset cell to 8,brightness to 43,dark level to low.That was in March.Placed cardboard behind speakers to project sound forward instead of to the side and rear.Excellent tv.

WAP 16.

tripod39 is offline  
post #930 of 1860 Old 09-21-2011, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
And here's my last question out of the million. lol Can this Plasma achieve the same kind of brightness as a Sony Wega CRT SDTV? Once I amp the contrast up to 100, and the brightness to the 65 ish area without taking a hit to the blacks(Then again, there's a 'slight' hit) the brightness mixed in the with the phemonal color i get from my CRT is flat out perfect for me when gaming.

I always kept the color and brightness in the mid section, but raising the brightness until the blacks arent effected at 60ish along with raiser the color makes it eye popping gorgeous.

My LCD however when maxed to 100 on color AND set to wide Color can't match my CRT...It looks washed out and bland in comparison unless i set that Dynamic Color mode to high....but when that happens it crushes so much detail, patterns and the like that it renders it a win lose situation and it flat out bugs the hell out of me.

If this plasma can achieve CRT Brightness, I'll be one happy dudeskie. ;p
WaveBoy is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Samsung Pn51d490 51 Inch 720p 600hz 3d Plasma Hdtv Black , Samsung Pn51d490 51 Inch 3d 600hz Plasma Hdtv 3d Kit , Samsung Pn43d490 43 Inch 720p 600hz 3d Plasma Hdtv Black , Samsung Pn43d450 43 Inch 720p 600 Hz Plasma Hdtv Black , Samsung Pn51d450 51 Inch 720p 600 Hz Plasma Hdtv Black
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off