Buzzing Plasmas - Some thoughts and Observations - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 83 Old 06-14-2011, 02:06 PM
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I'm curious. Why does what someone believes really matter? Use your ears.

Exactly. Unfortunately, your advice will fall on many deaf ears in this thread.
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post #62 of 83 Old 06-14-2011, 02:39 PM
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Exactly. Unfortunately, your advice will fall on many deaf ears in this thread.

You realize you just quoted yourself right?

Not saying I disagree with you though. If you don't hear it, it doesn't matter how loud it buzzed.
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post #63 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 03:50 AM
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If this observation doesn't convince people that some sets buzz and some don't, I don't know what will.

First 59D7000 set, all four people in our household thought it buzzed badly.

Second 59D7000, all four people in our household think it doesn't buzz (to any practical standpoint). This doesn't mean that if you stuck your ear up to the TV you wouldn't hear anything but that is irrelevant.

I can understand any one person's ears plus their tolerance to noise being different from another person's. I can't explain how four people would reach the same conclusion on two TVs when they each have different ears if the TVs weren't radically different in performance.
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post #64 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

You realize you just quoted yourself right?

Not saying I disagree with you though. If you don't hear it, it doesn't matter how loud it buzzed.

Oops. However, certain principles bear repeating.
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post #65 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I can understand any one person's ears plus their tolerance to noise being different from another person's. I can't explain how four people would reach the same conclusion on two TVs when they each have different ears if the TVs weren't radically different in performance.

Yup, and that's what matters. If it's loud enough to bother you and your household, it's an issue. If it's not, then you probably aren't looking around for threads about it.
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post #66 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 09:16 AM
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I have a Samsung PN58C8000. I noticed the buzz a little bit when I first got it, but only when I was standing up. When I sat down, I think it went over my head (the TV was a bit high), and I never really noticed it much. Now that I've redone my TV room, my TV is much lower and I can hear it clear as a bell at 11 feet away where I sit. It's not reflecting off the wall behind it, because that wall doesn't really face me (as seen in the above link). As such, I'm pretty certain it comes straight out the front of the set. It's not a deal breaker, but it's definitely directional and it's definitely noticeable. When I watch TV, I can't hear it over the sound anyway.

The PQ is so fantastic on this set that I wouldn't trade it for the top of the line silent LED model. I also had a Panasonic 58" for a few days, but returned it for the Samsung due to insanely annoying floating (flickering really) black levels that drove me nuts. That TV didn't seem to buzz as much, but it did buzz some. Definitely not as much as the Samsung. I'll take the buzzing over constantly adjusting black levels though. That TV only lasted a few days in my family room.

I also had a 42" Panasonic plasma since 2006 until I got the Samsung this year, and that one buzzed as well, albeit very quiet and only audible for about a foot or two from the TV. I have yet to hear a Plasma that has no buzz, but I've only owned 3 of them and only tried to specifically listed to a few others (which all buzzed to some degree, including my brother's 60" Pioneer).
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post #67 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by htpc-geek View Post

I have a Samsung PN58C8000. I noticed the buzz a little bit when I first got it, but only when I was standing up. When I sat down, I think it went over my head (the TV was a bit high), and I never really noticed it much. Now that I've redone my TV room, my TV is much lower and I can hear it clear as a bell at 11 feet away where I sit. It's not reflecting off the wall behind it, because that wall doesn't really face me (as seen in the above link). As such, I'm pretty certain it comes straight out the front of the set. It's not a deal breaker, but it's definitely directional and it's definitely noticeable. When I watch TV, I can't hear it over the sound anyway.

The PQ is so fantastic on this set that I wouldn't trade it for the top of the line silent LED model. I also had a Panasonic 58" for a few days, but returned it for the Samsung due to insanely annoying floating (flickering really) black levels that drove me nuts. That TV didn't seem to buzz as much, but it did buzz some. Definitely not as much as the Samsung. I'll take the buzzing over constantly adjusting black levels though. That TV only lasted a few days in my family room.

I also had a 42" Panasonic plasma since 2006 until I got the Samsung this year, and that one buzzed as well, albeit very quiet and only audible for about a foot or two from the TV. I have yet to hear a Plasma that has no buzz, but I've only owned 3 of them and only tried to specifically listed to a few others (which all buzzed to some degree, including my brother's 60" Pioneer).

Does the 59/64 D7000/8000 have any fans built in? If so, I wonder how many people are confusing a buzz with the sound of a fan. I just received my PN59D7000 yesterday and was playing around with the break in slides last night. I heard an audible noise from the TV sitting about 8-10 feet away. I could not hear it when watching TV or anything. When I got closer to it, it sounded like a fan running, not a buzz. Although I heard it from 8-10ft away in a quiet house, I do feel that it was well within the acceptable audible range. It pretty much sounds like a quiet computer fan running.
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post #68 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 01:15 PM
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@Hudson1, You said, "This doesn't mean that if you stuck your ear up to the TV you wouldn't hear anything but that is irrelevant." Actually, my entire point is that it's still buzzing. Your point is more important in the big picture and is one I've actually echoed in this thread. Here's me from above: "It's pretty irrelevant if you can't hear it. I mean that. It's irrelevant."

But it doesn't change the fact it's happening. And there are those among us who can hear it and the reason we bring it up when people (not you) stand on their soapboxes and claim they have some silent plasma is that the're wrong. The buzz is inherent to the technology. Some models and some samples of a given model are quieter than others. Some to the point of being inaudible outside of close range. But like the tree in the vacated forest, they still in fact make sound.

@Macleod, no I'm not confusing fans with the "plasma buzz". Fans have some pretty well known acoustic signatures to those of us who've lived with computers for long enough. The plasma buzz is probably best described as a million tiny fluorescent lights flickering on and off frequently. And I say that because a plasma TV would be well described in a similar way.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #69 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 02:44 PM
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Hi,
I work heavily in component level electronic maintenance and repair of electronic systems such as high power radio transmitters, radar, telecommunications, computer networks, display systems, you name it.
I'm also heavily involved on a hobbyist level with silent PC design.
(Sorry for the bio, but it helps to be taken seriously)

One thing I can tell you is solid state electronics can sing and buzz. Capacitors, coils, regulators, transformers, all vibrate especially at high voltages. Power supplies, ballasts, amplifiers, exciters etc are often the culprits.
Not all components are equal, sometimes changing a capacitor with the an apparent exact copy from the same manufacturer will produce a different result. Othertimes there seems to be no way around the buzz no matter how many times you change component.
I've noticed components which seem to perform rather quietly but then find one that deviates from the norm and noticably buzz. Other stuff might just all buzz in a certain application, while paying more for something of higher quality (or simply rated for higher voltages), and there's no noticable buzz.

Sometimes the buzzing can be a serious problem for users. People can be sensitive to high frequencies at low volumes and this varries WIDELY by person.

It's important to remember that the components that are creating the buzz are not all equal.

I can say with all certaintity that Plasma TVs do not all buzz at the same levels, and frequencies. Consistency across a product line is very rare.
Some may buzz lower than most people can hear, but still be incredibly annoying to those few who can hear it, I bet a good portion of plasmas fall in this category.
Some may buzz lower than ANYONE can notice, and I don't doubt this is the case for many plasmas.
Some may buzz so bad that everbody is annoyed by it, also quite likely to happen to atleast a small portion of plasmas.
Some may be too quite for audio test gear, but that is unlikely, a truly silent high power device is very rare. (Fluorescent ballasts are going to make some noise).


A trick is to track your ear around energized components with a tube (from a paper towel roll perhaps), narrow down the culprit(s) and replace them. (Audio test equipment could accomplish a better job.)
I don't recomend that to anyone but trained proffessionals. Besides, I'm sure manufacturers don't make it easy on anyone but their own technicians to take apart and make component replacements on a plasma.

Another big thing is the structure of the TV, it's frame, the screws and bolts that hold it together, the mounts, the wall, the TV stand, the floor.
Anything that is physically attached to the TV in someway can amplify the vibrations of the components and create more sound.
Tightening or loosening screws and bolts (within reason) can often make a difference. Putting padding or seperation between parts can make a difference.
Another big thing is the acoustics of the room. Flat hard surfaces will reflect sound. For instance if your TV buzzes directionally out the back, put a soft surface on the wall behind it to prevent reflection.

I hope this helps.
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post #70 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

@Hudson1, You said, "This doesn't mean that if you stuck your ear up to the TV you wouldn't hear anything but that is irrelevant." Actually, my entire point is that it's still buzzing. Your point is more important in the big picture and is one I've actually echoed in this thread. Here's me from above: "It's pretty irrelevant if you can't hear it. I mean that. It's irrelevant."

But it doesn't change the fact it's happening. And there are those among us who can hear it and the reason we bring it up when people (not you) stand on their soapboxes and claim they have some silent plasma is that the're wrong. The buzz is inherent to the technology. Some models and some samples of a given model are quieter than others. Some to the point of being inaudible outside of close range. But like the tree in the vacated forest, they still in fact make sound.

@Macleod, no I'm not confusing fans with the "plasma buzz". Fans have some pretty well known acoustic signatures to those of us who've lived with computers for long enough. The plasma buzz is probably best described as a million tiny fluorescent lights flickering on and off frequently. And I say that because a plasma TV would be well described in a similar way.

Rogo, perhaps I didn't relay my thoughts adequately. I fully recognize that some people are not going to "hear" a TV at even a very close sitting distance while others clearly will hear that TV. However, if it takes a normal person to put their ear 6 inches or less from the TV to hear it, then for all practical purposes, that TV is "functionally silent". There are all kinds of things that can be heard from extremely short range that nobody considers as making noise. It's not just plasma TVs.
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post #71 of 83 Old 06-15-2011, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

Rogo, perhaps I didn't relay my thoughts adequately. I fully recognize that some people are not going to "hear" a TV at even a very close sitting distance while others clearly will hear that TV. However, if it takes a normal person to put their ear 6 inches or less from the TV to hear it, then for all practical purposes, that TV is "functionally silent". There are all kinds of things that can be heard from extremely short range that nobody considers as making noise. It's not just plasma TVs.

I would draw the following distinction then....

Because plasma TVs do buzz, even those that generally are only heard at close range might have the sound carry for some users with some samples of a given model.

LCD TVs, however, don't have a similar buzz, even at close range.

And while you might consider something that is not silent as functionally silent, I prefer actually silent.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #72 of 83 Old 06-16-2011, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I would draw the following distinction then....

Because plasma TVs do buzz, even those that generally are only heard at close range might have the sound carry for some users with some samples of a given model.

LCD TVs, however, don't have a similar buzz, even at close range.

And while you might consider something that is not silent as functionally silent, I prefer actually silent.

That's fine. I'll go back to my original point, though. If all four people in a house, spanning quite a few years of age, can't hear a TV buzz without putting their ear right up to the TV then that's a very good indicator that no one is going to hear it at even a close sitting distance. And yes, we know that some examples buzz loudly such as the first D7000 I had.

To your last point... I believe ANY device drawing a significant electrical current is not perfectly silent so I don't see how that can be your criteria for acceptance.
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post #73 of 83 Old 06-16-2011, 12:35 PM
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Got my new PN59D7000 from samsung yesterday, and the buzzing is pretty much non existant.

I can hear it very faintly if I try to, other than that it's fine. Way better than my PN58C7000, which wasn't even a factor to me.

I just hope I don't get the other issues I had.
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post #74 of 83 Old 06-16-2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

To your last point... I believe ANY device drawing a significant electrical current is not perfectly silent so I don't see how that can be your criteria for acceptance.
Interesting, perhaps worth testing.

And, yes, if 4 normal humans of varying ages attempt to hear a plasma buzzing with their ear up near the TV and can't hear it, it's pretty reasonable to say it's not buzzing audibly. But if they can doing that test, the TV is certainly buzzing.

I actually agree with your premise, however. A problem that one can't really experience is not a problem. And, for example, my Panasonic too buzzes when I'm standing near it listening behind it and I can also listen to the fans. But I can't hear either of them even 5-6 feet away nor can anyone else.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #75 of 83 Old 06-16-2011, 01:28 PM
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This is to respond to the "directional buzz" and not the "all plasma's buzz" debate.

I have a GT25 with the front/center buzz on high white scenes.

From my understanding and research this is due to the T201 transformer mounted on the back power board and located almost right in the middle of the screen.

I took the back off the TV and confirmed for my own issue. There is a thread that addresses this.

For this problem, all that needs to happen is for Panasonic to move the board or address why some of these transformers buzz.

Simple, but saying "all buzz" is not part of the issue when talking about the directional buzz.

Is it more fun to use the equipment or talk about it on AVS?
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post #76 of 83 Old 06-16-2011, 01:53 PM
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I have not heard plasma buzz. I tried to listen for it at Best Buy, but the place was too noisy. Is the "buzz" high or low frequency, e.g. is it like the high frequency flyback transformer 15.75 kHz whistle on an old CRT TV?

Also where is the buzz coming from in most cases, from the screen itself?

Michael
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post #77 of 83 Old 06-16-2011, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

I have not heard plasma buzz. I tried to listen for it at Best Buy, but the place was too noisy. Is the "buzz" high or low frequency, e.g. is it like the high frequency flyback transformer 15.75 kHz whistle on an old CRT TV?

Also where is the buzz coming from in most cases, from the screen itself?

Michael

I think there are a variety of buzzes and that is why this discussion gets going in too many different ways, and is hard to sort out.

Just ends up causing stress for the potential buyer and one does not know what to do.

Is it more fun to use the equipment or talk about it on AVS?
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post #78 of 83 Old 06-17-2011, 07:10 AM
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my new samsung d550 doesNOT buzz or may some..which i never hear!
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post #79 of 83 Old 06-17-2011, 12:14 PM
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@montaman, it was my impression that most Panasonic's didn't suffer that problem. The fact you have a recent vintage one that does is a bit disappointing. Some guy posted a fix on the net for something similar; is that something you can try?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #80 of 83 Old 06-17-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montanaman View Post

I took the back off the TV and confirmed for my own issue. There is a thread that addresses this.

For this problem, all that needs to happen is for Panasonic to move the board or address why some of these transformers buzz.

Interesting. My G20 had the directional buzz too. I wonder if it was the same thing causing it.

Just for fun, here you can compare the internals of the GT20/GT25 and the GT30:
GT20: http://www.fullhd.gr/2008-03-14-21-3...-teardown.html
GT30: http://www.fullhd.gr/2008-03-14-21-3...-teradown.html
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post #81 of 83 Old 06-17-2011, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

@montaman, it was my impression that most Panasonic's didn't suffer that problem. The fact you have a recent vintage one that does is a bit disappointing. Some guy posted a fix on the net for something similar; is that something you can try?

I have read that some GT30 owners are still having the directional buzz problem as well.

The fix was for transformers where the core developed a hairline crack, and the thread starter made a "frame" out of cable ties and tightened the core. I was in the process of doing this when I received notice of an unexpected move which I am still in the middle of. So my followup is on hold.

I don't know if mine is cracked, but just wiggling the transformer I could diminish the buzz.

Panasonic made improvements to the transformer (poster referenced a service bulletin), but hearing that GT30s have the same or similar buzz makes me wonder if it has yet been fixed.

An easy solution for Panasonic would be to move the location of the power board; put it in the corner so if it does buzz at least you do not hear it in the center spot.

Link to fix thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=found

Is it more fun to use the equipment or talk about it on AVS?
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post #82 of 83 Old 06-17-2011, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voz View Post

Interesting. My G20 had the directional buzz too. I wonder if it was the same thing causing it.

Just for fun, here you can compare the internals of the GT20/GT25 and the GT30:
GT20: http://www.fullhd.gr/2008-03-14-21-3...-teardown.html
GT30: http://www.fullhd.gr/2008-03-14-21-3...-teradown.html

G20 looks same as GT25; it is that yellow transformer top and center in the full back image.

For the GT30 it looks like there are now two or even three big yellow transformers.
EDIT: I think the big two together may be coils, and the one with the two yellow sections is the
transformer. And look where it is placed: Almost right IN THE CENTER!

Can compare with this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=found

Is it more fun to use the equipment or talk about it on AVS?
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post #83 of 83 Old 07-14-2011, 09:08 AM
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I think i can hear a slight buzz or hum comeing from my new st30 only on bright sceens only if i have the volume down its not to loud so iam ok with it
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