Official Samsung 2011 PNxxD7000 Thread - Page 129 - AVS Forum
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post #3841 of 4123 Old 02-22-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

Alrighty... I fully understand that, just seemed odd considering I have not yet seen anyone using such a high setting (not to mention 2 people with the same such complaint).

I'm not complaining... just observing/reporting! Whatever the setting is, the PQ is great on this set! But it did take me a few nights of trying to convince myself that the overly dark shadow detail was normal before I said "can't be" and played some more.

I'm coming from an S2 Panasonic that has notoriously low measured gamma (~1.9), but I helped mine a bit with my Onkyo/Reon processor and was running at about 2.1+ after the external tweak (yes... I remembered to undo the Onkyo gamma tweak when connecting the D7000).

Even with the +2 setting on the D7000, my eyeballs say its running slightly higher measured gamma than the 2.1 that I was accustomed to on the S2... probably right around the 2.2 standard.

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post #3842 of 4123 Old 02-22-2012, 02:54 PM
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On the D7000, a one click change of the Gamma control is equal almost exactly to a 0.1 change in measured gamma.

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post #3843 of 4123 Old 02-22-2012, 09:11 PM
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Avidhiker,
That difference in black levels with the bigger models may certainly make a difference for me. Thanks for the reference to the CNET article. I have read it, but forgotten about that point about shadow details. I think this is precisely what is bothering me now.
I am returning my model, and I will either purchase the larger model, or perhaps wait a month or so for the PN51E7000 or one of the new Panasonic plasmas (GT50 or VT50.)
Thanks again.
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post #3844 of 4123 Old 02-23-2012, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post

I'm not complaining... just observing/reporting! Whatever the setting is, the PQ is great on this set! But it did take me a few nights of trying to convince myself that the overly dark shadow detail was normal before I said "can't be" and played some more.

I'm coming from an S2 Panasonic that has notoriously low measured gamma (~1.9), but I helped mine a bit with my Onkyo/Reon processor and was running at about 2.1+ after the external tweak (yes... I remembered to undo the Onkyo gamma tweak when connecting the D7000).

Even with the +2 setting on the D7000, my eyeballs say its running slightly higher measured gamma than the 2.1 that I was accustomed to on the S2... probably right around the 2.2 standard.

I get it now, of course Larry immediately picked up on it, but I'm a relative noob when it comes to HD video (well, video in general). And I agree, the blacks do seem over the top at times. Next time I run through my calibration, I will definitely be trying a lower target gamma if only to see what I've been missing. I'm at 2.3 right now.
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post #3845 of 4123 Old 02-23-2012, 02:45 PM
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Spent some more time with my PS51D7005.

The colour banding issues I got do seem to have diminished quite a bit. On the other hand the FBr has increased so often that I often see it once or twice every movie. A bit odd more in dark then bright scenes now??? Not much to nag about. As for the buzzing it was a long time since I noticed it. My brain has learned to shut out that noise it appears.

One slightly annoying thing though is that I get just a bit darker black level on two thirds of the screen. I used sliders just to make sure I would get a good start before I watched all my letterboxed movies but afraid something in my bluray player or receiver is outputting uneven max blackness on parts of the screen.

Or it´s just the glass that is uneven or whatever on the TV itself. Anyway it´s so slight you only see it when it go as dark as possible so again not really much of an issue. I tried switching sources and such but spent so many hours on the sliders has not seen any difference at all.

As for the image quality I noticed that my PS 3 for some reason make the picture overly dark on the D7005. Using S&M disk and the contrast pattern gives very poor results. As expected in movies I loose detail but mostly what I am not supposed to see anyway. It´s a bit more forgiving to the eye. Overall impression was quite a bit better compared to the Sony BDP-S370 which let me see almost all staples.

Maybe this is the price of reference picture. Hightlighting things you are not supposed to see. But if I wish something it´s deeper blacks. I really need to get some form of backlight going to mask this better. I would wish the letterbox would get as black as what´s on the picture at the very least. It´s a bit annoying most movies get letter boxed. I find myself moving closer but then you see more of the plasma noise.

As for SD TV it´s awful no way around it but knew that. My next tv should have absolutely perfect black levels and much better contrast. I have had to admit to myself that particularly on the BDP-S370 the picture is flat and totally lifeless unless I bring some dynamic contrast into play or exaggerate the black levels a bit at the cost of shadow detail. I am putting my hopes on the BDS-700.

Thankfully the 3D work really well and does a lot to solve the issue with depth. I tend to use the 2D/3D conversion quite a bit. I often feel it adds more then it substracts. I want to be immersed in movies not kill the joy of them by analyzing the picture to bits
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post #3846 of 4123 Old 02-23-2012, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oqvist View Post

The colour banding issues I got do seem to have diminished quite a bit. On the other hand the FBr has increased so often that I often see it once or twice every movie.

For color banding, I wonder if using zoyd's ADC calibration might help (you can actually limit the range subjected to the 8 to 10 bit conversion)? He has recently posted a procedure and test patterns in the calibration thread.

As for FBr, just in case you missed it, there is a fix (bit more complicated for your set, but possible):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1389562
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post #3847 of 4123 Old 02-23-2012, 05:47 PM
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Fellas,

Any advice on Hz settings? I know the TV is capable of 600 Hz, but when I watch sports, the blurring can get pretty bad. Just as bad as my 2005 Sony LCD at 60Hz.

When I click on the info button on the remote the screen indicates "1920 x 1080i@60Hz HDMI1/DVI". Any reason why it's only displaying at 60Hz? I tried scrolling through the settings, but I can't find anything. Can anyone assist?

Thanks.
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post #3848 of 4123 Old 02-23-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comebackid View Post

Fellas,

Any advice on Hz settings? I know the TV is capable of 600 Hz, but when I watch sports, the blurring can get pretty bad. Just as bad as my 2005 Sony LCD at 60Hz.

When I click on the info button on the remote the screen indicates "1920 x 1080i@60Hz HDMI1/DVI". Any reason why it's only displaying at 60Hz? I tried scrolling through the settings, but I can't find anything. Can anyone assist?

Thanks.

Just a quick google grab ...

http://www.best-3dtvs.com/guides/wha...ld-drive-mean/

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post #3849 of 4123 Old 02-23-2012, 06:57 PM
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Thanks fjames.

I've done the research, and I had a feeling there was nothing wrong with the TV.

I am wondering if the broadcast has anything to do with it. I was watching the NY/Miami game on TNT tonight, and it was at its worst. However, I have seen other sport events on other channels, and it was fine.
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post #3850 of 4123 Old 02-23-2012, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by comebackid View Post

I was watching the NY/Miami game on TNT tonight, and it was at its worst. However, I have seen other sport events on other channels, and it was fine.

That's just the nature of live TV source material for the foreseeable future.
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post #3851 of 4123 Old 02-24-2012, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

For color banding, I wonder if using zoyd's ADC calibration might help (you can actually limit the range subjected to the 8 to 10 bit conversion)? He has recently posted a procedure and test patterns in the calibration thread.

As for FBr, just in case you missed it, there is a fix (bit more complicated for your set, but possible):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1389562

ADC I don´t know how much I want to mess with the service menu. Currently it´s a non issue so and I suppose I should get a colour metre before anything. What is the tradeoff limiting the range?

FBr I may attempt some day when I feel it really start to nag. There is no con at all to doing that?
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post #3852 of 4123 Old 02-24-2012, 04:58 AM
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Where are people finding the cnet values? I read the whole review and don't see where they recommend any settings?
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post #3853 of 4123 Old 02-24-2012, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Shultzee View Post

Where are people finding the cnet values? I read the whole review and don't see where they recommend any settings?

It's a link at the top of their calibration report: CNET Picture Settings

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post #3854 of 4123 Old 02-24-2012, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oqvist View Post

ADC I don´t know how much I want to mess with the service menu. Currently it´s a non issue so and I suppose I should get a colour metre before anything. What is the tradeoff limiting the range?

FBr I may attempt some day when I feel it really start to nag. There is no con at all to doing that?

True, a colorimeter to dial things in a little beter should probably be a priority. Zoyd's ADC calibration does look very nice (I ran it to address a different problem, and have not compared gradients), but just like the logic upgrade, it requires the german service remote emulator and plenty of digging around in th SM. I'm not clear on the drawbacks (if any), but he selectively maps the normal video level range of 16-235, while others seem to use 1-235 or 1-255. I suppose you are simply discarding the WTW and BTB data (of which there is very little in film, IIRC).

There does not appear to be any drawback to the FBr "fix", or at least nothing that has been discovered so far.
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post #3855 of 4123 Old 02-24-2012, 02:57 PM
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five days after I ordered it. Now I got up to 6 more days to wait to play with my 64D7000 if the delivery estimate of March 1 is accurate.
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post #3856 of 4123 Old 02-25-2012, 10:54 AM
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Got my 59 7000 today. Am very impressed. Can not pick up the buzz sound and I am trying. January 2012 build. Keeping my fingers crossed.
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post #3857 of 4123 Old 02-25-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by barrydancer View Post

five days after I ordered it. Now I got up to 6 more days to wait to play with my 64D7000 if the delivery estimate of March 1 is accurate.

Mine came a day earlier than Amazon estimated. It was delivered by CEVA.

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post #3858 of 4123 Old 02-25-2012, 03:11 PM
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Regarding the “Real Black Filter” on the new D7000’s...

Hi everyone, (first time poster here, sorry for it being so Long)

I've been following this forum since last summer and finally picked up a 51D7000 from Vann's, the set is beautiful. My parents bought the same set several months ago (Sept build) and have had no issues; no buzz, no peeling. When I received my set 2 days ago it seemed a bit more reflective than my folks set. After doing more research I read that Samsung discontinued the "Real Black Filter" on all d7000’s build post Oct 2011... my set was built in November.

Bothered that Samsung is advertising something that doesn't actually exist on the sets anymore, I contacted them. My correspondence via Live Chat is below: (still not sure what to make of it, as they never seem to quite answer the question… they just say the new panel is more advanced)

Your Issue ID for this chat is LTK5640734006X
Isaac: Hi, thanks for reaching out to Samsung tech support. How can I help you today?
Steve: Hi
Isaac: Hello Steve.
Steve: Have a question about the real black filter on the d7000
Isaac: Sure, go ahead with the question.
Steve: Both my parents and I bought the same d7000 tv (theirs was a build date of Sept 2011 and mine was Nov 2011)... I noticed mine is a bit more reflective. After doing some research I read that Samsung discontinued using the Real Black Filter after Oct due to peeling issues... is this true?
Isaac: May I know what is the product?
Steve: Samsung PN51D7000 plasma tv
Isaac: Thank you for the information.
Steve: Sure thing.
Isaac: I am sorry; the unit has not been discontinued.
Isaac: Only the issue has been resolved.
Steve: I'm confused, I bought the TV two days ago... and it's discontinued?
Steve: I guess what I am really asking is that I bought a $1500 tv and I want to make sure that all the features (real black filter) is on my model. I think Samsung should be able to answer that

Isaac: No, the unit is a 2011 model and it has not been discontinued.
Isaac: No feature has been removed from the model.
Steve: So it does not have the real black filter as advertised. Is there a replacement filter or none at all?
Isaac: Would you mind holding a few moments while I gather the required information for your request?
Steve: Will do, thanks. I just want to know the real difference between these two sets we just bought. Which collectively was over $3000.Isaac: Thank you.
Isaac: Thank you for holding.
Steve: yep
Isaac: I have checked the details and the panel of the unit has been changed.
Isaac: The model is the same.
Steve: Was this change a downgrade or upgrade? When you say the panel has been changed, but the model is the same... I'm not sure what that means
Isaac: That means that an advanced panel has replaced with the old one.
Steve: Something closer to the new E7000 series coming out this week? I just want to make sure that Samsung's fix to the peeling issue didn't compromise the quality of the panel, as I'd read on a forum that they just removed the "real black filter" to stop the peeling, but did not replace it, so the panel is much more reflective to lightIsaac: The panel has been completely replaced with an advanced one and there are no issues with the model now.
Steve: Okay. Thank you for the information
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post #3859 of 4123 Old 02-25-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

True, a colorimeter to dial things in a little beter should probably be a priority. Zoyd's ADC calibration does look very nice (I ran it to address a different problem, and have not compared gradients), but just like the logic upgrade, it requires the german service remote emulator and plenty of digging around in th SM. I'm not clear on the drawbacks (if any), but he selectively maps the normal video level range of 16-235, while others seem to use 1-235 or 1-255. I suppose you are simply discarding the WTW and BTB data (of which there is very little in film, IIRC).

There does not appear to be any drawback to the FBr "fix", or at least nothing that has been discovered so far.

I'm still working on understanding the importance of WTW and BTB, but it seems WTW is preserved with a 16-235 calibration. BTB is of less concern, as it is more likely to be clipped with a proper calibration. Here is zoyd's post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21627792
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post #3860 of 4123 Old 02-25-2012, 10:53 PM
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WHAT and where is peeling? is it the actual TV ?

ANd did Sammy correct the Pops with a software update ?

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post #3861 of 4123 Old 02-26-2012, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

I'm still working on understanding the importance of WTW and BTB, but it seems WTW is preserved with a 16-235 calibration. BTB is of less concern, as it is more likely to be clipped with a proper calibration. Here is zoyd's post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21627792

A zillion (approximately) posts have been written on the merits of trying to preserve BTB and WTW in the conversion of video inputs to display outputs. Usually it boils down to there really isn't any BTB/WTW for most normal material but there may be exceptions so you should allow some overshoot. Personally I think it's a minor issue compared to other calibration effects on PQ but I set the ADC to allow a small overshoot of white, clipping above ~level 240. I hard clip black at 16 because I don't believe any real information exists below nominal black.

If you use the patterns I made for the Samsung ADC calibration, 16-255 will clip all blacks below level 16 for YCbCr inputs. It will also then be correct for RGB full range in which level 1 = black. Level 235 gets mapped to the equivalent 10-bit value (940) so white levels up to 255 will be not be clipped at contrast level 95. The other patterns allow you to expand the input scale (allowing more display levels per input level) to varying degrees with the 16-235 pattern being the one I use. This one clips above 238-240 when contrast is set at 95.
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post #3862 of 4123 Old 02-26-2012, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverstone View Post

Regarding the Real Black Filter on the new D7000's...

Hi everyone, (first time poster here, sorry for it being so Long)

I've been following this forum since last summer and finally picked up a 51D7000 from Vann's, the set is beautiful. My parents bought the same set several months ago (Sept build) and have had no issues; no buzz, no peeling. When I received my set 2 days ago it seemed a bit more reflective than my folks set. After doing more research I read that Samsung discontinued the "Real Black Filter" on all d7000's build post Oct 2011... my set was built in November.

Bothered that Samsung is advertising something that doesn't actually exist on the sets anymore, I contacted them. My correspondence via Live Chat is below: (still not sure what to make of it, as they never seem to quite answer the question they just say the new panel is more advanced)

It's possible that the new panels are "ITOless" indicated by one of the versions of the logic board firmware. In addition to having better image retention characteristics, this type of pixel structure is also less reflective. Whether or not it's less reflective than the real black filter I don't know.
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post #3863 of 4123 Old 02-26-2012, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

A zillion (approximately) posts have been written on the merits of trying to preserve BTB and WTW in the conversion of video inputs to display outputs. Usually it boils down to there really isn't any BTB/WTW for most normal material but there may be exceptions so you should allow some overshoot. Personally I think it's a minor issue compared to other calibration effects on PQ but I set the ADC to allow a small overshoot of white, clipping above ~level 240. I hard clip black at 16 because I don't believe any real information exists below nominal black.

If you use the patterns I made for the Samsung ADC calibration, 16-255 will clip all blacks below level 16 for YCbCr inputs. It will also then be correct for RGB full range in which level 1 = black. Level 235 gets mapped to the equivalent 10-bit value (940) so white levels up to 255 will be not be clipped at contrast level 95. The other patterns allow you to expand the input scale (allowing more display levels per input level) to varying degrees with the 16-235 pattern being the one I use. This one clips above 238-240 when contrast is set at 95.

Thanks for the clarification, zoyd. My head was spinning after reading just a single thread on the subject (where Dr. Poynton had to be emailed for comment). Fascinating stuff, which reminds me why this is the AV science forum. In order to get anything from that thread, you have to read between the lines a bit. Anyway, your preferred approach seems to be a perfectly reasonable comprimise.

Quick question - have you noticed a reduction in color banding (which I take to mean posterization) using a 16-235 calibration? I myself have not been bothered much with banding, but seems some people have this complaint on occasion.
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post #3864 of 4123 Old 02-26-2012, 08:00 AM
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Ric, I see you're finding out that some people around here are reluctant to spoon feed readily available information. Clearly you're not much of a google user (the forum search function is even better), but you might at least want to own up to it in your posts. Could get you a little more sympathy.

This being your second post in this thread, with the first ignored... open wide for the choo choo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair View Post

WHAT and where is peeling? is it the actual TV ?

It's the coating on the screen itself. Inspect the edges, especially corners, for small bubbles. Used to be a more common issue on the D-series, but it has been fixed (Samsung will repair it under warranty). I haven't seen any recent complaints about peeling, so I wouldn't worry about it. Seems it starts early on in the set's life, so you will not have to worry about peeling a year or two from now (hopefully).

Quote:
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ANd did Sammy correct the Pops with a software update ?

Yes.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1389562

Do not do a firmware update on the new set. Instead, install the Samsung fix firmware in the first post (these are "beta" releases, but perfectly safe), and you'll be good to go. Worst case scenario, it doesn't completely install. Then you will need to use the manual update method also described there.
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post #3865 of 4123 Old 02-26-2012, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

Quick question - have you noticed a reduction in color banding (which I take to mean posterization) using a 16-235 calibration? I myself have not been bothered much with banding, but seems some people have this complaint on occasion.

I noticed an improvement on small gradients in near-single color backgrounds and such (like the kind of stuff you get when navigating items in the ps3 menu). I have not noticed any difference in normal movie/broadcast material but I've had the same experience as you in that I didn't see any banding problems in this material to begin with.
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post #3866 of 4123 Old 02-26-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

Ric, I see you're finding out that some people around here are reluctant to spoon feed readily available information. Clearly you're not much of a google user (the forum search function is even better), but you might at least want to own up to it in your posts. Could get you a little more sympathy.

This being your second post in this thread, with the first ignored... open wide for the choo choo!



It's the coating on the screen itself. Inspect the edges, especially corners, for small bubbles. Used to be a more common issue on the D-series, but it has been fixed (Samsung will repair it under warranty). I haven't seen any recent complaints about peeling, so I wouldn't worry about it. Seems it starts early on in the set's life, so you will not have to worry about peeling a year or two from now (hopefully).



Yes.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1389562

Do not do a firmware update on the new set. Instead, install the Samsung fix firmware in the first post (these are "beta" releases, but perfectly safe), and you'll be good to go. Worst case scenario, it doesn't completely install. Then you will need to use the manual update method also described there.

very cool - what do you think of the brightness on this set and is it true that the 59 does better PQ than 51?

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post #3867 of 4123 Old 02-27-2012, 07:01 AM
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Well, it's not LCD bright because it's not an LCD, but it's fine for my needs and offers the most bang for your buck in terms of picture quality IMO. As far as plasma goes, I think it's capable of a relatively bright picture. Of course, this is all subjective. You have to decide for yourself.

I recommend that anyone concerned with getting the best picture should buy a simple calibration disc. You can set brightness, contrast, color and tint correctly (all by eye) in a matter of minutes.

Free test disc (see PDF for instructions):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

D-Series Calibration thread (plug in a real calibration and see how it looks):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333561
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post #3868 of 4123 Old 02-27-2012, 07:34 AM
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The PQ advantage the 59" has compared to 51" is lower minimum black level of ~0.007 ftL which improves depth and contrast of the image. [Of course you could get the 51" and get better than 59" inch blacks (approaching vt30 levels) using my hardware tweak. ]
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post #3869 of 4123 Old 02-27-2012, 08:00 AM
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I don't know if I'm just sensitive, but my unit seems to buzz quite loudly. I tend to listen to my audio system somewhat low and the buzz when sitting directly in front of this beautiful display is very annoying.

Is there a fix for this? I'm outside my 14 day return policy with my seller. Do I have any options if I call for warranty repair?

I love the picture quality, but the buzzing is putting a bit of a damper on my user experience.
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post #3870 of 4123 Old 02-27-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by complexx View Post

I don't know if I'm just sensitive, but my unit seems to buzz quite loudly. I tend to listen to my audio system somewhat low and the buzz when sitting directly in front of this beautiful display is very annoying.

Is there a fix for this? I'm outside my 14 day return policy with my seller. Do I have any options if I call for warranty repair?

I love the picture quality, but the buzzing is putting a bit of a damper on my user experience.

My tv buzz is audible when the cell light is higher like in the dynamic mode.
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