Official Panasonic GT30 Series Discussion Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 05:44 AM
 
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Well D-Nice just said the fluctuating brightness is just a bad and annoying as floating blacks on another forum. Other sites experienced similar issues. This tv is now worthless to me.
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post #152 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post
2.5-2.6 is recommended for pitch dark room (as per digital cinema according to Spectracal).

2.4 for dimly lit room (this is what most studio monitors use for mastering content).

2.2 for daytime viewing to compensate for ambient light.
[Note: I have no stake in this game, and I'm not trying to stir up the "x is better than y" debate - I honestly do not know, which is why I'm asking.]

Let's say that someone had just purchased a new plasma that was used primarily (80%) in pitch black conditions, with the remainder of usage split between small/moderate light in an otherwise dark room (10%) and daylight (10%).

This person had gone through the break-in period (not here to debate that either, so kindly leave it off the table), and was planning on having it professionally calibrated.

Let's further say, for the sake of argument, that this person agreed with (or at least was curious about) your assertion about gammas.

Let's assume that there are 4 modes available for calibration (including 3D). Would a professional calibrator (and please, I'd like to hear from people like Chad, D-Nice, whomever) indulge a request for calibration across multiple gamma ranges? For instance:
  • ISF "day" calibrated to 2.2 gamma
  • ISF "night" calibrated to 2.4 gamma
  • THX calibrated to 2.55 gamma
  • 3D mode

What special problems would this introduce to the calibrator, if any?

Thanks!
-Bn
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post #153 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 08:03 AM
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You cannot adjust the gamma in THX mode. ISF-Day and Night can accommodate your request in 2D and 3D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknoir View Post
[Note: I have no stake in this game, and I'm not trying to stir up the "x is better than y" debate - I honestly do not know, which is why I'm asking.]

Let's say that someone had just purchased a new plasma that was used primarily (80%) in pitch black conditions, with the remainder of usage split between small/moderate light in an otherwise dark room (10%) and daylight (10%).

This person had gone through the break-in period (not here to debate that either, so kindly leave it off the table), and was planning on having it professionally calibrated.

Let's further say, for the sake of argument, that this person agreed with (or at least was curious about) your assertion about gammas.

Let's assume that there are 4 modes available for calibration (including 3D). Would a professional calibrator (and please, I'd like to hear from people like Chad, D-Nice, whomever) indulge a request for calibration across multiple gamma ranges? For instance:
  • ISF "day" calibrated to 2.2 gamma
  • ISF "night" calibrated to 2.4 gamma
  • THX calibrated to 2.55 gamma
  • 3D mode
What special problems would this introduce to the calibrator, if any?

Thanks!
-Bn
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post #154 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
You cannot adjust the gamma in THX mode.
So buyer's of the GT30 plasma are stuck with bad gamma in THX mode unless they pay to have it professionally calibrated? Is a gamma correction something Panasonic could roll out in a firmware update, not that they likely would? Thanks.

Click here for my home theater setup
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post #155 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 08:20 AM
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I love how this thread has become about updating us on what is happening in "the other forum".

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post #156 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
You cannot adjust the gamma in THX mode. ISF-Day and Night can accommodate your request in 2D and 3D.
Ah - my mistake - thank you for the correction.

So, if we were to assume, for the sake of this discussion, that THX mode had a gamma of 2.2 (straying from GT30 for a moment here), you're saying that a calibrator could calibrate the custom ISF modes to 2.4 and 2.55, respectively.

Would you, then, as a professional calibrator, indulge a customer who requested those multiple gamma settings across ISF modes?

Does it introduce any additional complications from a calibration perspective, other than (if I'm on the right path) the calibrator is setting up 6 modes (2D/3D for each of THX, ISF1@2.4 & ISF2@2.55)?

Quite honestly, pneumatic has got me....interested...so I'm trying to understand the pain and suffering that goes into a calibration, comparing and contrasting to the benefits (real or perceived) to viewing.

Thanks!
-Bn
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post #157 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 08:53 AM
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So DNice what's the deal, there's so many conflicting opinions about this TV and its so-called "gamma problems."

What's your verdict? Is this a faulty TV or is it worth getting?
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post #158 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknoir View Post
So, if we were to assume, for the sake of this discussion, that THX mode had a gamma of 2.2 (straying from GT30 for a moment here), you're saying that a calibrator could calibrate the custom ISF modes to 2.4 and 2.55, respectively.
Why would you want a 2.55 gamma in the first place? That does not make sense on a Digital display.

Quote:
Would you, then, as a professional calibrator, indulge a customer who requested those multiple gamma settings across ISF modes?
ISF modes are only available on the VT30s.

Quote:
Does it introduce any additional complications from a calibration perspective, other than (if I'm on the right path) the calibrator is setting up 6 modes (2D/3D for each of THX, ISF1@2.4 & ISF2@2.55)?
Again, why would you want 2.55 on a digital display?

Quote:
Quite honestly, pneumatic has got me....interested...so I'm trying to understand the pain and suffering that goes into a calibration, comparing and contrasting to the benefits (real or perceived) to viewing.

Thanks!
-Bn
pneumatic gamma comments really only relates to analog displays (aka CRTs). There is no set standard for digital displays and I do not know of any competant calibrators that would ever recommend 2.4+ gamma on a digital display. A gamma like that will look very cartoonish.
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post #159 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 09:09 AM
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Show me the conflicting reports and we can talk
Quote:
Originally Posted by XciteMe83 View Post
So DNice what's the deal, there's so many conflicting opinions about this TV and its so-called "gamma problems."

What's your verdict? Is this a faulty TV or is it worth getting?
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post #160 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 09:16 AM
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I didn't mean conflicting as in, challenging your findings/results. I just mean, some people in this thread are saying it's not a big deal, and some are saying this makes the TV "worthless" and "faulty."

So I'm just wondering if they are correct... Is this something we need to wait on before we purchase a GT30???
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post #161 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XciteMe83 View Post
I didn't mean conflicting as in, challenging your findings/results.
I did not mean that either.

Quote:
I just mean, some people in this thread are saying it's not a big deal, and some are saying this makes the TV "worthless" and "faulty."
They are expressing their opinion. Is it a big deal to me? Yes. Do I think the TV is worthless and faulty? TV worhtless... IMO no. faulty... IMO buggy.

Quote:
So I'm just wondering if they are correct... Is this something we need to wait on before we purchase a GT30???
What exactly are you going to wait on? A firmware update from Panasonic? I'm pretty sure they are aware of the problems that have been pointed out. It is now up to them to either classify it as "normal operation", "bugs that will be fixed in a firmware update" or something else. That's their responsibility as a manufacturer of goods.

Whether or not you choose to purchase their products is your responsibility in its current or a hypothetical future form. I am just one tool in that process and it is up to you to figure out what to do next.
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post #162 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Why would you want a 2.55 gamma in the first place? That does not make sense on a Digital display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
pneumatic gamma comments really only relates to analog displays (aka CRTs). There is no set standard for digital displays and I do not know of any competant calibrators that would ever recommend 2.4+ gamma on a digital display. A gamma like that will look very cartoonish.
I indicated in my first post on this subject that I honestly don't know - I am simply attempting to gain a better understanding.

I appreciate your responses and your clarification about CRT vice PDP.
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post #163 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 10:01 AM
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Here is the truth. There is no standard for gamma with digital display. None. If someone ever tells you that there is, ask them to provide you with official documents that state so. There are two canidates currently being reviewed.... 2.35 and 2.2.

Gamma is not only dependent on room environment. The display also has a role it what you select. If your display has poor dynamic range, contrast, black level, you do not want to use a gamma above 2.3 as dark area detail will look like mud.

Competent calibrators select the gamma target based on room, viewing habits and display capabilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknoir View Post

I indicated in my first post on this subject that I honestly don't know - I am simply attempting to gain a better understanding.

I appreciate your responses and your clarification about CRT vice PDP.

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post #164 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 10:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

pneumatic gamma comments really only relates to analog displays (aka CRTs). There is no set standard for digital displays and I do not know of any competant calibrators that would ever recommend 2.4+ gamma on a digital display. A gamma like that will look very cartoonish.

That is incorrect. See here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.poynton.com/notes/PU-PR-IS/Poynton-PU-PR-IS.pdf View Post

Since the earliest days of television, the display power exponent for studio video has been about 2.4, and this value remains representative of today's studio displays even those using non-CRT technology

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/3_Gamma_2.0_2.2or2.4.pdf View Post

The intended appearance for an HD master is obtained through a 2.4-power function, to a display having reference white at 100 nt, with 1 lx ambient, and 1% surround

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.poynton.com/notes/PU-PR-IS/Poynton-PU-PR-IS.pdf View Post

Perceived lightness follows approximately a 0.42-power function with respect to luminance

(1/0.42 = 2.38)

Sources:
http://www.poynton.com/notes/PU-PR-I...n-PU-PR-IS.pdf
http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...0_2.2or2.4.pdf
http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/Rehabilitation_of_gamma.pdf
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post #165 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 10:48 AM
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Perhaps you need to reread my ENTIRE post. I know exactly what Poynton is explaining. However you DO NOT want that high of a gamma on certain digital displays. Everything is not text book in the field.
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post #166 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Perhaps you need to reread my ENTIRE post. I know exactly what Poynton is explaining. However you DO NOT want that high of a gamma on certain digital displays. Everything is not text book in the field.

I have calibrated samsung C7000's to 2.4 using the 10 point control and the result is perfect. Even without the 10 point control, shadow detail is not a problem - you simply raise the brightness control a couple of clicks till shade 17 is visible.
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post #167 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post


I have calibrated samsung C7000's to 2.4 using the 10 point control and the result is perfect. Even without the 10 point control, shadow detail is not a problem - you simply raise the brightness control a couple of clicks till shade 17 is visible.

Ok good luck with that one. If it floats your boat, cool. I would never calibrate a customer' s Samsung C7000 to that gamma target because I know better. Enjoy the picture.
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post #168 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 11:06 AM
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Any word on the release date for the GT30 55"?
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post #169 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 11:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Ok good luck with that one. If it floats your boat, cool. I would never calibrate a customer' s Samsung C7000 to that gamma target because I know better. Enjoy the picture.

You can say whatever you want but the fact remains that films are mastered on 2.4 gamma monitors and that is what you need to see the images as intended. I have all my displays calibrated to 2.4 and the image quality is superb with fully visible shadow detail, excellent midrange and beautiful contrasty highlights, as it was intended to be seen. 2.2 is like a washed out water color painting in comparison.
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post #170 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by exander View Post

Any word on the release date for the GT30 55"?


Some people already have them, more will in the weeks to come.
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post #171 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post


You can say whatever you want but the fact remains that films are mastered on 2.4 gamma monitors and that is what you need to see the images as intended. I have all my displays calibrated to 2.4 and the image quality is superb with fully visible shadow detail, excellent midrange and beautiful contrasty highlights, as it was intended to be seen. 2.2 is like a washed out water color painting in comparison.

You're right. I will say what I want. I assure you I would NEVER calibrate a C7000 to 2.4. I guess I'm not as naive as you are. I know what looks best and correct on a C7000 in a dim room and it sure as hell isn't a 2.4 gamma using standard windowed patterns. You would know better if you actually took into consideration how that display functions with dynamic picture content.... hint, hint ABL circuit. I guess you did not evaluate that.

For the record the proper gamma target for the C7000 in a dim/dark environment is 2.3. But what do I know......
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post #172 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 11:48 AM
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Thanks for the evaluation on the GT30 D-Nice, are you planning to do a once over on any of the Samsung's?
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post #173 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 12:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You're right. I will say what I want. I assure you I would NEVER calibrate a C7000 to 2.4.

Then you are going against Poyntons recommendations and against what studio monitors use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I know what looks best and correct on a C7000 in a dim room and it sure as hell isn't a 2.4 gamma using standard windowed patterns. You would know better if you actually took into consideration how that display functions with dynamic picture content.... hint, hint ABL circuit. I guess you did not evaluate that.

Based on your comments here I'm guessing you haven't even tried to calibrate the c7000 to 2.4, because if you had you would see the performance is excellent with 2.4.

And yes, I'm well aware the ABL affects gamma. I do not calibrate gamma with the ABL active as that skews the readings for lower APL scenes where the ABL is not active. FYI I use the 16% coverage windows on the AVSHD709 disc. The APL windows are ok too, the result is the same. The full fields however are not ok.
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post #174 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post

Then you are going against Poyntons recommendations and against what studio monitors use.

If you say so

Quote:


Based on your comments here I'm guessing you haven't even tried to calibrate the c7000 to 2.4, because if you had you would see the performance is excellent with 2.4.

Really? I mean, really??? I specifically said I would never leave a client's display set to 2.4 because I know how the picture would be. That means I've been there and done that.

Quote:


And yes, I'm well aware the ABL affects gamma. I do not calibrate gamma with the ABL active as that skews the readings for lower APL scenes where the ABL is not active. FYI I use the 16% coverage windows on the AVSHD709 disc. The APL windows are ok too, the result is the same. The full fields however are not ok.

Pay attention. I never said calibrate gamma when the ABL is active. I said evaluate what the ABL circuit does when it is active.

Stop wasting my time with this. I agree to disagree with you on this topic. You are free to continue to calibrate C7000s to 2.4. By no means will I stop you. If you ever want to see how wrong you are, place a 2.4 gamma C7000 next to a reference mastering display as see what it should look like.
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post #175 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Thanks for the evaluation on the GT30 D-Nice, are you planning to do a once over on any of the Samsung's?

Yes.
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post #176 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader182 View Post

Some people already have them, more will in the weeks to come.

Can't wait!!
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post #177 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 01:03 PM
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Dont want to sound like a pessimist. But given the history of support and acknowledgement by the manufacturer in 2010, and the current conditions over seas. I wouldnt drop a dime on this set, regardless of "possibly" acquiring a firmware download. Unfortunately, I hope D-Nice received a faulty set. I guess only time will tell. Thanks for the observations, D-Nice.
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post #178 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 01:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Yes.

Do you know when you will be able to calibrate any 59 or 64 inch Samsungs? Thanks.
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post #179 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by norcal hd View Post

Dont want to sound like a pessimist. But given the history of support and acknowledgement by the manufacturer in 2010, and the current conditions over seas. I wouldnt drop a dime on this set, regardless of "possibly" acquiring a firmware download. Unfortunately, I hope D-Nice received a faulty set. I guess only time will tell. Thanks for the observations, D-Nice.


This is very unlikely, as several other users have reported similar problems I'm really sorry to say.
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post #180 of 4163 Old 04-05-2011, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clenz View Post

I love how this thread has become about updating us on what is happening in "the other forum".

Well, I think that's because all the news about these tvs is being broken over there.

-Noob
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