Does your 2011 Samsung "D" plasma have brightness pops? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your 2011 Samsung D series plasma have brightness "pops"?
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post #541 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Amazingly Smooth View Post

I would skip it. If I could get rid of my 64D8000 I would. I didn't notice the pops until it was too late to return it. Ugh.



Thanks, yeah, might be worth seeing what 2012 brings. There is nothing wrong with what I have now..., I just want bigger. It looks like I shouldn't have a problem returning since it already shipped, so I might as well test it out.


Justin
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post #542 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by will_111 View Post

I've noticed for the UK PS59D550 new firmware was released yesterday, 26th October

http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/de...rd=PS59D550C1K

There's 2 there, not sure why they've put 2. They haven't explained anything.

1025.0 and 1005.0

Going to update using the TV and report back on which version it uses and if it solves the brightness pops.



So to give an update, i tried this. 1025.0 is actually 1026 when installed on to the tv. Had to do it through USB as online wouldn't recognise any updates.
Still hasn't solved the brightness pops. They're still there.
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post #543 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will_111 View Post

So to give an update, i tried this. 1025.0 is actually 1026 when installed on to the tv. Had to do it through USB as online wouldn't recognise any updates.

We talked about it. There was a v1025 refresh and later they replaced the link with the v1026 file but forgot to update the description on the website.

How do you describe your "pops"? I can see floating blacks only, no more dynamic adjustments. (ABL still works but the effect is smooth, it is not disturbing).

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post #544 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 11:51 AM
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Have done further testing:

If you set Cell Light to anything higher than 17, you will still experience pops. If Cell Light is at 17 or below, pops are (almost) entirely gone.

And yes, the picture has definitely changed after the update. Either the black level has risen or the gamma or overall light output has been altered. There is no doubt about it.

Contrast has no effect on the pops. So if you want to compensate for loss of overall light output of the screen after the FW update, you can try playing around with this.

I have a theory: since the pops are still there with Cell Light @ +17, I believe that Samsung have tricked us. They have not really solved the problem but have merely masked it by altering some settings in the tv's software. That's why some of us are seeing the changes in black level.
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post #545 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhDream View Post

Have done further testing:

If you set Cell Light to anything higher than 17, you will still experience pops. If Cell Light is at 17 or below, pops are (almost) entirely gone.

And yes, the picture has definitely changed after the update. Either the black level has risen or the gamma or overall light output has been altered. There is no doubt about it.

Contrast has no effect on the pops. So if you want to compensate for loss of overall light output of the screen after the FW update, you can try playing around with this.

Did you ever use a calibration disc to adjust brightness before the firmware update? If so, go back to the disc and see if the brightness setting is altered. I really don't understand why no one can figure out what was changed (if anything) with this firmware!

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post #546 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 12:26 PM
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I am seeing floating blacks and not brightness pops.
The black bars are changing in brightness when watching letterbox material. Since the new update I have watched parts of Halloween, Braveheart and inception. Here are my findings in regards my EU/UK model

I have still to see them in anything other than 24p material. If I Switch my BDP to output 50z instead 24 or enable Cinema smooth when watching 24hz Material, black level rises and I no longer the shifts.

Depending on the Discs native black level I seem to be able to lower brightness to compensate. However, This appears to only work, disc to disc which is not Ideal. With regards my set, adjusting Contrast, Cell etc does not work. Turning Dynamic Contrast on, makes it worse but turning black tone on seems to make it better.

Peak white seems to be lower, but I'm no calibrater so I can't be sure about this.
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post #547 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhDream View Post

If you set Cell Light to anything higher than 17, you will still experience pops. If Cell Light is at 17 or below, pops are (almost) entirely gone.

I use Cell Light 15.

The higher you set your Cell Light, the higher the peak brightness will try to go, and thus, the ABL will kick in more often (and re-calculate all the colors because this is what ABL do, limits the average brightness level on your display to keep the power draw and heath output lower, but this means you either get serious banding or re-scaled gradients). This is not a new thing.

Even though I was able to observe the negative effects of the update (flashing black bars around 2.35:1 movies), it feels like the overall picture quality improved a bit in every aspects except the black levels (they are significantly worse with high APL scenes).

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post #548 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinHEMI05 View Post

I wish I had found this thread before I ordered, but I just ordered a pn65d550 and am now wondering if I should cancel.

It seems to be great bang for buck to replace my 2009 panny 54 G10, but not If this series is plagued with an incurable problem. What do Yinz think? Does this affect most of the tvs produced or should I take the chance to see if I get one that isn't broke? Do you think Samsung will solve this? Do they even care?

Thanks!

Justin

I actually sold my d7000 and bought another Panasonic, no issues on this TV. Samsung came out 3 times and no fix. Then they started to ignore me.
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post #549 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 09:30 PM
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I played more with the display after the 1026 update.

It's significantly different from 1025 and it looks really crazy after <1025. But I think I like it.


My absolute peak brightness with Cell Light 20, Contrast 95, Gamma -3 and the Service Menu white balance RGB-Gains adjusted to produce D65 (with the "everything is <=128 but one of them =128] method, so I don't need to reduce the Contrast later but I max out both the digital ranges and the peak light output...) is ~87 cd/m^2.
But it's very stable! It's very hard to trigger ABL, I can increase the APL relatively high before it starts to cut back the brightness.

As I said earlier, the MLL is a tiny bit lower. The black level with very high APL is crazy high but it's still acceptable with middle and moderately high APLs. For example 60Hz:
- black screen - 0.041
- black on my custom 20p gray pattern (relatively high APL, scenes from cinema movies rarely go this high) - 0.061
- small black rectangle - 0.097

So, yes, the peak white output is lower, the black levels are a bit lighter, and blacks float harder but the overall brightness output (both absolutely -fluctuations- and relatively -floating gamma-) is much more stable now (effectively only the black level fluctuates which is the most noticeable on the black bars around 2.35:1 movies but doesn't really bothers me with full screen contents).

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #550 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

I played more with the display after the 1026 update.

It's significantly different from 1025 and it looks really crazy after <1025. But I think I like it.

My absolute peak brightness with Cell Light 20, Contrast 95, Gamma -3 and the Service Menu white balance RGB-Gains adjusted to produce D65 (with the "everything is <=128 but one of them =128] method, so I don't need to reduce the Contrast later but I max out both the digital ranges and the peak light output...) is ~87 cd/m^2.
But it's very stable! It's very hard to trigger ABL, I can increase the APL relatively high before it starts to cut back the brightness.

As I said earlier, the MLL is a tiny bit lower. The black level with very high APL is crazy high but it's still acceptable with middle and moderately high APLs. For example 60Hz:
- black screen - 0.041
- black on my custom 20p gray pattern (relatively high APL, scenes from cinema movies rarely go this high) - 0.061
- small black rectangle - 0.097

So, yes, the peak white output is lower, the black levels are a bit lighter, and blacks float harder but the overall brightness output (both absolutely -fluctuations- and relatively -floating gamma-) is much more stable now (effectively only the black level fluctuates which is the most noticeable on the black bars around 2.35:1 movies but doesn't really bothers me with full screen contents).

Which model?

Except, of course, in paranoid delusions for those that believe.
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post #551 of 2249 Old 10-29-2011, 10:39 PM
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Ps51d550

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post #552 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 06:22 AM
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We have to keep pushing Samsung to fix this issue they should be grateful that there are people out there still willing to take a risk an spend there money will all things considering I noticed mine a few weeks ago I've had my 64-8000 for about three months now by now Samsung should be aware of this problem because with all the links you've guys posted the fb link the 2011 shoot out that's pretty big I've seen it on cnet I wouldn't want to think Samsung would just sit on there hands an let's this problem go by let's all hope
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post #553 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimy46 View Post

We have to keep pushing Samsung to fix this issue they should be grateful that there are people out there still willing to take a risk an spend there money will all things considering I noticed mine a few weeks ago I've had my 64-8000 for about three months now by now Samsung should be aware of this problem because with all the links you've guys posted the fb link the 2011 shoot out that's pretty big I've seen it on cnet I wouldn't want to think Samsung would just sit on there hands an let's this problem go by let's all hope

Samsung just keeps denying the issue. I contacted Samsung customer support and they told me there are no documented issues of this problem. Even in the Shootout, the Samsung rep there denied knowing about it and then tried to weasel out of it saying he was just a training guy. Maybe Samsung deliberately sent him there so that a technical or product guy wouldn't have to answer.

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post #554 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 10:56 AM
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@ Janos:

Why is your Gamma at -3?
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post #555 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 11:01 AM
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Well then it's time for a push to get Samsung to cut us checks for what we paid an give Panasonic our money I gave up a vt25 for this set an passed up the vt30 for the 8000 because of the "great things" I heard about this set an the only reason I passed up the vt30 was the price was a little high at release I will be giving Samsung a call today an pressing them on this issue
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post #556 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 11:30 AM
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after speaking with a csr at samsung without delay the first thing she ha me do was go into the setting and turn off eco-mode. I watched several movies and a lot of football and havent had the issue again. btw she did say that she wasnt aware of an issue when I brought up how people are having the same issue. but i thought back to how fast she had me turn off eco mode. I feel good about knowing that if there is an issue its wired to the web and they can blast an update to it.
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post #557 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhDream View Post

@ Janos:

Why is your Gamma at -3?

Because this is the best setting for my dark room (with some 10 point gray-scale fine-tuning).


By the way, I think I should give you some numbers for comparison purposes about my calibrated peak white luminance (basically the same calibration method with target D65 white and gamma ~2.4):

v1025 - Cell Light 15 - ~100 cd/m^2
v1026 - Cell Ligth 17 - ~80 cd/m^2

I decided to keep Cell Light at 17 because higher values don't increase the white level significantly further (Cell Light 20 gives me ~87 cd/m^2) but the overall setup seems a bit smoother with CL 17.


The interesting fact is that I noticed "brightness pop" related improvements in v1025 and I just updated later when we talked about it how the link changed without updated description on Samsung's website...

So I don't feel that this reduction was really necessary. And even though it's sufficient for me and I like this state of the device, I do understand that some people need more light output. (However, don't expect any more peak white output from a Pana VT30, may be the same or even less. I am just saying before somebody starts blablabla...)

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post #558 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 03:19 PM
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Thanks! Now I have evidence to back up what my eyes are seeing.

That is quite a decrease in peak luminance; a whole 20%, not even taking into account that you have upped the Cell Light.

I will maybe contact Samsung. It's immensely irritating that they fix one problem by creating another. That's not problem-solving. It's problem-relocating.
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post #559 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhDream View Post

I will maybe contact Samsung. It's immensely irritating that they fix one problem by creating another. That's not problem-solving. It's problem-relocating.

Even after the updates, the peak light output is still relatively high between 2011 PDPs and it's sufficient for dark rooms where PDPs are meant to be watched.

Take a look at the Pana VT30E, I measured ~65 cd/m^2 peak brightness on it using the normal size window patterns from the AVSHD 709 test disc. (This was after the "fluctuating brightness" fix came out.)

I understand you miss the extra brightness if you use this TV in a bright environment but note that this state can't be squarely categorized as "buggy" or "faulty" because the earlier state had it's own flaws as well and this brightness level isn't that low when you compare it to other 2011 PDPs and at least it's very stable now (the VT30 is still a mess).

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post #560 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post


Even after the updates, the peak light output is still relatively high between 2011 PDPs and it's sufficient for dark rooms where PDPs are meant to be watched.

Take a look at the Pana VT30E, I measured ~65 cd/m^2 peak brightness on it using the normal size window patterns from the AVSHD 709 test disc. (This was after the "fluctuating brightness" fix came out.)

I understand you miss the extra brightness if you use this TV in a bright environment but note that this state can't be squarely categorized as "buggy" or "faulty" because the earlier state had it's own flaws as well and this brightness level isn't that low when you compare it to other 2011 PDPs and at least it's very stable now (the VT30 is still a mess).

Which model do you think is fixed?

Except, of course, in paranoid delusions for those that believe.
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post #561 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 06:26 PM
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I'm on firmware 1025 and my peak white is 173cd/m2 on AVSHD709 large APL window with cell light at 20, so I don't know why you are getting such low brightness janos666, or why you would want to run it that low. I use Cell light 12 though which produces 140cd/m2 on APL window and -2 gamma which is 2.4 on APL window, but I had to use 10 point to balance it out. Still have brightness pops big time on dynamic picture level content like motorsport, but other content like dramas, movies, sitcoms, news etc. hardly ever produces pops. It was the same with previous firmware. TV is 51D450 modified to D7000.
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post #562 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assm0de View Post

I'm on firmware 1025 and my peak white is 173cd/m2 on AVSHD709 large APL window with cell light at 20, so I don't know why you are getting such low brightness janos666, or why you would want to run it that low. I use Cell light 12 though which produces 140cd/m2 on APL window and -2 gamma which is 2.4 on APL window, but I had to use 10 point to balance it out. Still have brightness pops big time on dynamic picture level content like motorsport, but other content like dramas, movies, sitcoms, news etc. hardly ever produces pops. It was the same with previous firmware. TV is 51D450 modified to D7000.

Have you updated to 1026? That's where Samsung made a mess of the peak luminance levels.
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post #563 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 08:31 PM
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59D550 US version over here... I picked up it few days ago. I'm saw some pops when watching hockey last night. I did updated fw from 1012 to 1018 (the latest) without any luck. The only thing that helped was to bring down Gamma to -2 / -3 range, Cell to 15 and contrast to 75 (if I'm not mistaken). For BR content I did enable cinema-smooth to help 24p cause... I've seen some tiny "floating black" problem, but I can live with it. This is my secondary display for kids to play wii and watch some cartoon on the weekends so I don't think this will be a reason to return this great TV back to the store (I still have 3 weeks to do so if I find other issues).

I might try to perform 10pt hack to open up 2 extra video settings. I'm thinking about creating one specifically for NHL games to minimize pop problem.

Too be honest I don't know how this problem can fly up here in Canada where almost everybody watches hockey... I find it very easy to notice, unless you are using very low cell/contrast/brightness settings.

Is lowering Gamma cell/contrast/brightness the only thing I can help the pop?

Thanks....
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post #564 of 2249 Old 10-30-2011, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assm0de View Post

I'm on firmware 1025 and my peak white is 173cd/m2 on AVSHD709 large APL window with cell light at 20, so I don't know why you are getting such low brightness janos666, or why you would want to run it that low. I use Cell light 12 though which produces 140cd/m2 on APL window and -2 gamma which is 2.4 on APL window, but I had to use 10 point to balance it out. Still have brightness pops big time on dynamic picture level content like motorsport, but other content like dramas, movies, sitcoms, news etc. hardly ever produces pops. It was the same with previous firmware. TV is 51D450 modified to D7000.

Try to install v1026... Or not, if you use the TV in a bright room.

I just finished a long calibration (I also re-calibrated with 1025, so I am starting to get tired of this...) with v1026.
Many things changes since 1024 (and 1025), so I started from scratch and walked on a slightly different way. I decided to keep both Contrast and Brightness (as well as Sub Contrast and Sub Brightness) at their defaults and use only two of the SM base WP RGB Gains (and leave the highest [Red in my case] at 128, as well as all RGB Offsets at 128) + the 10p adjustments for the gray-scale calibration. (All of this after a fresh ADC calibration with my custom test pattern - see below...)

I used my custom made 20p gray and 92.2% color APL patterns (link).

My basic settings are: Cell Light 20, Contrast 95, Brightness 55, Gamma -2 and 10p gray + 6p gamut adjustments.

I am happy about the results, except the floating and relatively bright black levels. (At least it's more stable with CinemaSmooth which I use for 2.35:1 movies and it's hard to notice the fluctuations with full screen content...)


By the way, my calibrated peak brightness is ~81 cd/m^2 with CinemaSmooth and ~85 in 60Hz mode (yes, with Cell Light 20, Contrast 95 and gamma 2.4, D65 targets!).

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #565 of 2249 Old 10-31-2011, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

By the way, my calibrated peak brightness is ~81 cd/m^2 with CinemaSmooth and ~85 in 60Hz mode (yes, with Cell Light 20, Contrast 95 and gamma 2.4, D65 targets!).

Is it possible that reducing the RGB bias in the service menu has reduced your peak white? Why would you do that anyway? I read someone else did that too, what is the benefit? Mine are at around 132-137 by default, I guess they set them at the factory that way.
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post #566 of 2249 Old 10-31-2011, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebruce03 View Post

after speaking with a csr at samsung without delay the first thing she ha me do was go into the setting and turn off eco-mode. I watched several movies and a lot of football and havent had the issue again. btw she did say that she wasnt aware of an issue when I brought up how people are having the same issue. but i thought back to how fast she had me turn off eco mode. I feel good about knowing that if there is an issue its wired to the web and they can blast an update to it.

Corporate BS! You must be on Samsung's payroll to post this because most of the people here know better.

Eco-Mode has nothing to do with the floating brightness and fluctuating black levels seen on Samsung's 2011 plasmas. I know it, you know it and the vast majority of the posters on this forum know it as well. The biggest problem is Samsung knows it and refuses to do anything about it. I used to love Samsung products until this piece of garbage television came along, now unless this problem is fixed I will never buy another Samsung product as long as I live. My PN64d7000 is a $3000 piece of junk!

Where is all the pour user feedback for these TVs because of these issues? Samsung doesn't deserve to sell any of these TVs to customers who spend their hard earned money on them. The only one I have seen is one on Amazon that I posted, I submitted one to Samsung's website but it got rejected... I wonder why?
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post #567 of 2249 Old 10-31-2011, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

I used my custom made 20p gray and 92.2% color APL patterns (link).

Thank you for the patterns janos666

Can you do a tutorial about how to use them ?
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post #568 of 2249 Old 10-31-2011, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGNIS777 View Post

PS64D8000FS (EUR, zusammenbauen in Russia).
Movie/Warm 2/Cell light 6/SC - off/All circuits, incl. ECO&light sensor - off.
1080p/24
Brightness pops - YES.

1) Cell light - 20 -> not help
2) Game mode - on -> not help
3) Enter to service menu (INFO-MENU-MUTE-POWER - in EUR).
There is NO OPTION to turn off auto dimming.

yes, I tried everything on d450 and d490. No way to turn it off.
but last FW 1026 makes pops less visible.. but on the other hand black is worse..

I have 31pixels in right corner which are darker than the rest and when screen is all black [its dark grey actually after fw upgrade] these pixels are totally off.
so I have to change this set.. [again] I hope I'll get Version 2.
I'll get it tomorrow so I'll post here how it goes
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post #569 of 2249 Old 10-31-2011, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assm0de View Post

Is it possible that reducing the RGB bias in the service menu has reduced your peak white? Why would you do that anyway? I read someone else did that too, what is the benefit? Mine are at around 132-137 by default, I guess they set them at the factory that way.

Because when your ADC is calibrated optimally (the full HDMI input range is mapped to the full video processor range without clipping or reserving any values on any sides) then single-color gradients will suffer if you either set any RGB-Gains above 128 or the Contrast above 95 (or [M]SubContrast above 128).

I already suffered from this color gradient clipping with full factory default Movie mode settings (and I believe all of you do). The workaround was to reduce the Contrast until I clipped back all the single channel ranges to the point where the white point didn't suffer anymore.

I tried to minimize the number of the requisitioned controls and use the optimal one from the numerous redundant options.
I believe this is the optimal solution. I carried out the gray-scale calibration using 2 Base WP Gains and the 10p system, and my gradient is smooth (instead of using the Base WP controls semi-randomly and then cut everything back with [M]SubContrast -> Another problem that Movie mode has it's own SubContrast setting, so different picture modes aren't in sync with the conventional method unless you set them up separately with Contrast and/or [M]SubContrast.)

Peak brightness is indeed higher with higher RGB Gain values but both single-color and gray gradients suffer from clipping (unless you reduce the Contrast/[M]SubContrast but then you reduce the peak brightness again - probably even further if you use the less precise Contrast control and you also set it one notch lower than required because you don't trust in your subjective judgment about the near-white clipping -> this method is exact, you don't need to judge anything subjectively or fear about clipping, it's nice and easy...).

Side-note: As a PC user, I use the full 0-255 range. The clipping of the single-channel ranges is less noticeable with 16-235 TV levels input because the damaged range is fully or partially located in the Whiter-Than-White range (which you shouldn't really care about with TV levels).
But even if all your inputs are 16-235, I believe this method is still more exact and safe (again, you need to judge about the clipping subjectively if you decide to cause damage in the near-white [in this case near-whiter-than-white ] range).

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #570 of 2249 Old 10-31-2011, 09:22 AM
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@janos666

Thank so much for your contribution to this thread. I believe you have Euro verion of 51D550. I recently bought 59D550 US verison (1018 f/w from September 1). What settings would you recommend to minimze pops during hockey games? I had gamma at -2 / -3, cell at 15, contrast at 75 and brighntess at 50... this would minimize pops, however the picture was a little dull... I was doing this at 2am so my brain and eyes were tired.

Also would unlocking 10pt calibration help the cause of pops? (having 2 extra TV video settings would be nice too)

Since I'm not watching hockey games a lot on this TV my goal is to setup one video setting for hockey games and antother one for other HDTV channels. Maybe I'm crazy but floating blacks are not bothering me as much as pops.

Please advise... I still have 3 weeks to return the TV, but at the moment other than pops I really like this TV.

TIA
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