This seems like a really bad year for plasmas, unless the VT30 is jaw-dropping - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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And this is coming from somebody who considers plasma the best TV display (I'm not an LCD troll)

Sorry but come on, you gotta admit that...

Samsung's floating blacks, Cinema Smooth MLL rise, and power on/off cycles that some users are dealing with....

and Panasonic's THX crappy gamma, floating whites, brightness shifting, and black levels equal to, but not better than LAST YEAR'S models? (according to Cnet's review of the GT30)

WTF? Do I need to start looking at LCDs this year?
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post #2 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XciteMe83 View Post

And this is coming from somebody who considers plasma the best TV display (I'm not an LCD troll)

Sorry but come on, you gotta admit that...

Samsung's floating blacks, Cinema Smooth MLL rise, and power on/off cycles that some users are dealing with....

and Panasonic's THX crappy gamma, floating whites, brightness shifting, and black levels equal to, but not better than LAST YEAR'S models? (according to Cnet's review of the GT30)

WTF? Do I need to start looking at LCDs this year?

Yeah if you believe everything you read here and consider it a fair sample size of all the sets sold for one particular model. If I listened to all the negatives on here I would have never bought GT25 last year. Believe me LCD has its fair share of problems.

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post #3 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 10:33 AM
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Companies do seem a bit complacent, and yet the prices still go up. If everyone stopped buying they would have to lower prices, develop a better product, or both.
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post #4 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 10:39 AM
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Samsung and Panasonic aren't the only plasmas around. Have the others had equalily or worse issues this year?

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post #5 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tfoltz View Post

Companies do seem a bit complacent, and yet the prices still go up. If everyone stopped buying they would have to lower prices, develop a better product, or both.

Honestly, it doesn't seem so much like complacency than (perhaps) misplaced priority. There seems to be a lot larger focus on cramming streaming/video playback and the like into the TVs than perfecting the pictures and making them reliable.

It's not just flaws either - is there any actual rationale to Panasonic only having 3:2 pulldown this year on most models?
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post #6 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 11:54 AM
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For sheer PQ, it does sound like there are very minimal improvements this year, but perhaps they're reaching the upper limits of their potential (based on manufacturing costs, etc.).

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post #7 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 12:03 PM
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IDK, I thought the 64D8000 was pretty jaw dropping.

So I bought one!

Go watch the picture instead of listening to people blow up tiny problems to something you won't even see.

buytme
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post #8 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 01:15 PM
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I am not bitching about my 64d550 :-)
cinema smooth seems to relive brightness pops and I do not have any other issues.


It's not perfect but no tv is.
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post #9 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 01:41 PM
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Now where were we before HD? Have we gotten spoiled or what!



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post #10 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 01:55 PM
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This is a great year in my opinion.. The D7000 is basically a improved c8000 at a lower price. The picture on it is outstanding and less people have been getting buzz this year.
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post #11 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 02:05 PM
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tough call this year...VT30 vs D8000/D7000...none of them are revolutionary in any way but as long as you are not expecting a Kuro then it will be fine for most folks...I'm actually seriously debating whether or not to get the Sony 55HX929 LCD
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post #12 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 02:51 PM
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Go read the LCD forums. Every single new set has issues that range from the nitpicky to the dealbreaky.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #13 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Go read the LCD forums. Every single new set has issues that range from the nitpicky to the dealbreaky.

I never said LCD's don't have any issues...I agree that no set is perfect and it's about choosing the set that you feel has the least amount of issues or at the very least issues you can live with...the 2011 Pany's are disappointing so far not only because of the new fluctuating brightness issue and gamma bug but also because of the likelihood of the rising blacks still being present

Samsung promised us VT25 blacks and an end to the Cinema Smooth mll bug...both of which look to not be true (although larger sized Sammy plasmas still have the potential to reach VT25 levels)

that being said I started looking into full array local dimming LCD's (no way would I ever want an edge lit set) and the only one that has real potential is the upcoming Sony 55HX929...if they can fix the viewing angle and blooming issues then this could be the best set of 2011
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post #14 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 05:56 PM
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I'm still loving my Kuro.

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post #15 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

...the 2011 Panny's are disappointing so far not only because of the new fluctuating brightness issue and gamma bug but also because of the likelihood of the rising blacks still being present

Isn't the gamma issue only when the TV is in THX mode? I think it was said that in Custom mode, the gamma is good. And are industry insiders saying that rising blacks are likely on the 2011 models? Indications seem to be that they've fixed it this year.


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that being said I started looking into full array local dimming LCD's (no way would I ever want an edge lit set) and the only one that has real potential is the upcoming Sony 55HX929...if they can fix the viewing angle and blooming issues then this could be the best set of 2011

The downside of this TV is that it's list price is exactly $1,000 more than the list price of the 55VT30. And that it's made by Sony

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post #16 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Isn't the gamma issue only when the TV is in THX mode? I think it was said that in Custom mode, the gamma is good. And are industry insiders saying that rising blacks are likely on the 2011 models? Indications seem to be that they've fixed it this year.


The downside of this TV is that it's list price is exactly $1,000 more than the list price of the 55VT30. And that it's made by Sony

yes gamma bug is only in THX mode...but I still feel that this is not acceptable as a lot people who will not be having their sets professionally calibrated will probably be using this Mode thinking that it offers the best PQ out of the box

as far as rising blacks, D-Nice made a post at HDJ saying 'not to count on' rising blacks being fixed this year...take that however you want but D-Nice has been more right then wrong when it comes to Panasonic over the years

yes price is higher on the HX929 but if it can truly deliver then I wouldn't mind paying the premium...same as when Kuro's were first released
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post #17 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 06:03 PM
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XciteMe83, remember one thing: Plasma technoligy and LED technoligy have been out for a while now. Plasma has been out longer, but I think LED has been out long enough to say, "These new panels are stunning. They where stunning last year too. It gets harder and harder to make something better when it has been out so long."
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post #18 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 06:29 PM
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I think it's too early to be so despondent. I know expectations have been lowered, but we need to see what the VT30 will deliver. I hold out hope that it will set the benchmark for 2011. If it flops, I'll jump on your bandwagon....

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post #19 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

XciteMe83, remember one thing: Plasma technoligy and LED technoligy have been out for a while now. Plasma has been out longer, but I think LED has been out long enough to say, "These new panels are stunning. They where stunning last year too. It gets harder and harder to make something better when it has been out so long."

Instead of trying to make it "better", maybe they should focus on making it "work correctly". Plasma was invented in 1964, you'd think they could get it right by now

There is no excuse for the 2011 Plasmas having these issues. It's kinda sad when my 2009 G10's rising blacks problem is less irritating then the issues that the 2010 and 2011 models are having.

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post #20 of 72 Old 04-20-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Instead of trying to make it "better", maybe they should focus on making it "work correctly". Plasma was invented in 1964, you'd think they could get it right by now

There is no excuse for the 2011 Plasmas having these issues. It's kinda sad when my 2009 G10's rising blacks problem is less irritating then the issues that the 2010 and 2011 models are having.


The problem with this industry is that it has become so competitive, that they rush their new product development and get it out on the street before it's been proven. Then they try to fix it, if they can, with firmware updates. Manufacturers will learn to change their priority's only if they come to believe that most consumers don't favor features over quality and dependability, which should be their real selling point.


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post #21 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 12:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Some of you guys bring up REALLY good points!!!
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post #22 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 04:27 AM
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I have to agree that plasma disappointed me this year. The only thing that will save plasma this year is if the vt30 has a .003(preferably .002 or lower) or lower MLL that is stable and never rises.
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post #23 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

For sheer PQ, it does sound like there are very minimal improvements this year, but perhaps they're reaching the upper limits of their potential (based on manufacturing costs, etc.).

Then I wish they would just F costs and just start making Kuro's that exceed PQ of the previous Kuro's.

People will say things like Kuros were too expensive to make or they didn't sell well as there wasn't much demand. From what I hear Pioneer outsourced the glass to Panasonic, Panasonic said they couldn't make the glass after Pionner closed their glass facility so they discontinued the line. What the truth is - I DON'T know. I doubt many people besides top execs at Pioneer know the truth.

I think the truth though if you read this forum or just about any other forum is that most of us lament the demise of the Kuro TVs. They stopped making them a few years ago - just imagine where the PQ would be today if they had continued to progress as they had each model in the past.

We need SOME manufacturer to say - hey, if you pay more we can make the PQ you wanted. It probably won't sell well to mullet headed mouth breathers but if you are willing to pay a premium, you can get a premium TV. Just as BMW sells to a "niche" market so can high end TVs. I guess Mercedes is also in a niche market, oh and Lexus, oh and Ferrari, oh and Lotus, oh and Audi, oh and Lamborghini, oh and Fiskar, oh and Tesla, oh and.... Not everyone wants a Ford Festiva which also sells to a "niche" market. It is funny that cheap crap is considered the market but any quality stuff you might pay more for is a "niche" market. Oh but there aren't enough people that want a quality TV... If a car company can stay in business selling $250,000 cars that their owners will rarerly drive, I'm pretty sure some people would be willing to pay $7000 for a better 65" than Panasonic currently sells.
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post #24 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by boe View Post

Then I wish they would just F costs and just start making Kuro's that exceed PQ of the previous Kuro's.

People will say things like Kuros were too expensive to make or they didn't sell well as there wasn't much demand. From what I hear Pioneer outsourced the glass to Panasonic, Panasonic said they couldn't make the glass after Pionner closed their glass facility so they discontinued the line. What the truth is - I DON'T know. I doubt many people besides top execs at Pioneer know the truth.

I think the truth though if you read this forum or just about any other forum is that most of us lament the demise of the Kuro TVs. They stopped making them a few years ago - just imagine where the PQ would be today if they had continued to progress as they had each model in the past.

We need SOME manufacturer to say - hey, if you pay more we can make the PQ you wanted. It probably won't sell well to mullet headed mouth breathers but if you are willing to pay a premium, you can get a premium TV. Just as BMW sells to a "niche" market so can high end TVs. I guess Mercedes is also in a niche market, oh and Lexus, oh and Ferrari, oh and Lotus, oh and Audi, oh and Lamborghini, oh and Fiskar, oh and Tesla, oh and.... Not everyone wants a Ford Festiva which also sells to a "niche" market. It is funny that cheap crap is considered the market but any quality stuff you might pay more for is a "niche" market. Oh but there aren't enough people that want a quality TV... If a car company can stay in business selling $250,000 cars that their owners will rarerly drive, I'm pretty sure some people would be willing to pay $7000 for a better 65" than Panasonic currently sells.


I feel your pain! However there are companys that sell "high end" flat panel TV's:

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/video?aw...plasma%20TV,p=


http://www.nuvision.com/landing.aspx


Despite their high price tags they may be more dependable as far as pq, but I doubt they share the same performance of the Kuros.
The problem is that Pioneer no longer found it profitable to built high end plasmas and home video products. Their main focus has always been on home theater audio and 12 volt goodies, where they enjoy a higher market share.


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post #25 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Instead of trying to make it "better", maybe they should focus on making it "work correctly". Plasma was invented in 1964, you'd think they could get it right by now

There is no excuse for the 2011 Plasmas having these issues. It's kinda sad when my 2009 G10's rising blacks problem is less irritating then the issues that the 2010 and 2011 models are having.

I agree. I still love my 58 v10.. The rising blacks on my larger set were really unnoticeable to me. No floating blacks, no fluctuating anything, and good THX mode. Cant complain. Blacks still look great to me..

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post #26 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 12:59 PM
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I don't know I'm pretty happy with my 55" st30 panny.
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post #27 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 03:36 PM
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Ignorance is bliss!

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

Quick shot of my gear/theater.
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post #28 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 07:45 PM
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yes, another flop year.
2012 is worth the wait.
don't spend more than a grand if you need something now.
and save the extra money for a 2012 plasma.

you will thank me next year

of course if you have money to spend or may die from cancer anytime soon.... go for it! My Father's new wife had cancer, she was only 46, just passed away a few weeks ago. only 2 hours after her 46th birthday. they have a 42" 2006 Panasonic Plasma that has served them well and is still working fine.
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post #29 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 07:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post
yes, another flop year.
2012 is worth the wait.
don't spend more than a grand if you need something now.
and save the extra money for a 2012 plasma.


you will thank me next year

of course if you have money to spend or may die from cancer anytime soon.... go for it! My Father's new wife had cancer, she was only 46, just passed away a few weeks ago. only 2 hours after her 46th birthday. they have a 42" 2006 Panasonic Plasma that has served them well and is still working fine.
They said the same in 2010 about the 2011 models....
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post #30 of 72 Old 04-21-2011, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post
yes, another flop year.
2012 is worth the wait.
don't spend more than a grand if you need something now.
and save the extra money for a 2012 plasma.

you will thank me next year

of course if you have money to spend or may die from cancer anytime soon.... go for it! My Father's new wife had cancer, she was only 46, just passed away a few weeks ago. only 2 hours after her 46th birthday. they have a 42" 2006 Panasonic Plasma that has served them well and is still working fine.
Is... Is this a joke?
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