Judder problem on BD with Kuro 600M and Oppo BDP-93 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 05-03-2011, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I am running the Oppo in source direct mode. I have 24p turned on, on the Oppo. My tv is ISF calibrated (by d-nice, I was told), so I can't really view or change the PureCinema options on the Kuro. They are greyed out. There is no way 24p can be working properly. In shots where the camera pans, there is a lot of judder, also the credits roll isn't perfectly smooth. Anyone have any idea what might be wrong?
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post #2 of 29 Old 05-04-2011, 03:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nemesis1218 View Post

I am running the Oppo in source direct mode. I have 24p turned on, on the Oppo. My tv is ISF calibrated (by d-nice, I was told), so I can't really view or change the PureCinema options on the Kuro. They are greyed out. There is no way 24p can be working properly. In shots where the camera pans, there is a lot of judder, also the credits roll isn't perfectly smooth. Anyone have any idea what might be wrong?

The problem I have with your above quote follows: "My tv is ISF calibrated (by d-nice, I was told)".

...It sounds to me like someone might have sold you a lie to inflate the buying price. But don't worry about it! This problem is easily fixable.

But first I recommend you switch the 600M's AV Selection from ISF to Pure, and go to Pro Adjust and turn Film Mode to Standard. This will test that the KURO can properly play 24Hz content (as expected). Once you confirm your ISF mode doesn't play content like Pure, then the next step is to get the Controlcal program and go in there and change it yourself.

I haven't used Controlcal myself, so I don't know if D-Nice's [supposed install] settings will be erased, but if your ISF mode isn't playing 24Hz, then you have nothing to lose.
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post #3 of 29 Old 05-04-2011, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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i am still seeing judder when using the above settings. For reference the disc i am using is the Shaun of the Dead BD. Also everything runs through my Pioneer vsx 1120k avr. I have video conv turned off on the avr though so it should be passing the untouched signal all the way to the kuro.
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post #4 of 29 Old 05-04-2011, 12:04 PM
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My recollection is that there are several different drive modes designed for content (at least w/in kurocontrol) in addition to the menu options for standard, smooth, advanced.

Been a while since I played around with any of that, but you could give it a shot.

Also, the device you're using to process the data you're playing can make a big difference (for instance on PC different programs have different results in terms of being able to play back content properly). It's possible that the Oppo isn't doing it's job right (either due to defect or due to incorrect settings).
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post #5 of 29 Old 05-04-2011, 05:02 PM
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I wouldn't rule out the AVR being at fault.

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

Quick shot of my gear/theater.
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post #6 of 29 Old 05-05-2011, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

I wouldn't rule out the AVR being at fault.

just tried plugging straight into the tv and bypassing the AVR and the judder is still there. Anyone have any suggestions on the drive mode settings or any other stuff i could check? i am about to just give up on 24p.
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post #7 of 29 Old 05-05-2011, 11:53 AM
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Did you try turning off 24p on the Oppo and letting it output source direct? The Kuro might get confused if the Oppo is outputting anything other than unadulterated 24p.
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post #8 of 29 Old 05-05-2011, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by trem0lo View Post
Did you try turning off 24p on the Oppo and letting it output source direct? The Kuro might get confused if the Oppo is outputting anything other than unadulterated 24p.
24P has issues of its own too...it doesn't looks as great as people expect it to look. There will be judder, and on certain scenes it can be pretty bad. The shutter action of projectors at the theater helps to mask this effect...it is fully visible on a tv though and can be annoying at times. Maybe your expectations are higher than reality. Google the problems with 24p and you will find some articles explaining how it sometimes looks worse than regular 3:2 pulldown. I think the Kuro does 24P when it is input no matter what Pure Cinema setting is selected. I use 24P input on my Kuro because it often looks better that way...but I know what you are complaining about...it is the nature of the 24P beast..nothing wrong with the Kuro.
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post #9 of 29 Old 05-05-2011, 04:23 PM
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Well, you could use the Smooth setting if there is still unacceptable judder. It is akin to mild frame interpolation of an LED set but keeps the refresh rate @ 60hz instead of 72hz. The Kuro applies it to all content though, not just 24p movies.
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post #10 of 29 Old 05-05-2011, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Snow View Post

The problem I have with your above quote follows: "My tv is ISF calibrated (by d-nice, I was told)".

...It sounds to me like someone might have sold you a lie to inflate the buying price. But don't worry about it! This problem is easily fixable.

I'd be very careful about claiming that anyone lied. I know for a fact that D-Nice did do some in-store calibrations for at least one Kuro vendor before the panels were delivered to their owners. There is also the possibility that the OP bought a used display that D-Nice had calibrated for the prior owner.
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post #11 of 29 Old 05-05-2011, 10:54 PM
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OP could probably use Kurocontrol to unlock the set if they really wanted to muck with the settings. Depending on what type of content the original owner intended to view on it, he may have set it in one mode or the other but far more likely there is something screwed up in the av chain. Could also try the DVDO Edge to tweak the signal if nothing else works. It sounds like something is in the wrong mode though. Could also look into disabling any unnecessary processing in the pio or oppo that could be causing them to glitch out.
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post #12 of 29 Old 05-06-2011, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

OP could probably use Kurocontrol to unlock the set if they really wanted to muck with the settings. ....

I have seen compatibility problems with Kurocontrol and ControlCal. Kurocontrol prevented ControlCal from opening new memories. I am not sure what other problems may exist with mixing these since I rarely see them both used.
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post #13 of 29 Old 05-06-2011, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

OP could probably use Kurocontrol to unlock the set if they really wanted to muck with the settings. Depending on what type of content the original owner intended to view on it, he may have set it in one mode or the other but far more likely there is something screwed up in the av chain. Could also try the DVDO Edge to tweak the signal if nothing else works. It sounds like something is in the wrong mode though. Could also look into disabling any unnecessary processing in the pio or oppo that could be causing them to glitch out.

I think the OP is seeing the NORMAL judder that goes with 24p but was expecting more of a 'soap opera' smoothed look. 24p is NOT smooth..it does judder, and at certain panning rates it can look terrible.
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post #14 of 29 Old 05-06-2011, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

I think the OP is seeing the NORMAL judder that goes with 24p but was expecting more of a 'soap opera' smoothed look. 24p is NOT smooth..it does judder, and at certain panning rates it can look terrible.

Yeah, it's true 24p is very finicky. This is the reason I use my HTPC with reclock to force signal to more exact precision rather than my PS3 with HD content (not to mention that my PS3 could never seem to keep audio in sync on BR content - it would always drift). My recollection is that there's some variance in what's accepted as the different signals so even if one thing is outputting and the other receiving "24p" or "30p" "60hz" etc.. it isn't always 1:1.
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post #15 of 29 Old 05-06-2011, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post
Yeah, it's true 24p is very finicky. This is the reason I use my HTPC with reclock to force signal to more exact precision rather than my PS3 with HD content (not to mention that my PS3 could never seem to keep audio in sync on BR content - it would always drift). My recollection is that there's some variance in what's accepted as the different signals so even if one thing is outputting and the other receiving "24p" or "30p" "60hz" etc.. it isn't always 1:1.
Someone wrote a very detailed article about WHY 24p doesn't look as good as people expect it to. People expected video heaven when it became available on Blu-rays, and then found it wasn't all that great. I forget where I saw it but he explained the technical reasons as to why people are often dissapointed. He said the shutter action in a movie projector helps to hide the judder..on a 24p Blu-ray we get to see it all too well. You are seeing what's really there..we just don't like it. 24 frames per second was chosen in the dark ages for movies...it is far from ideal from a smoothness standpoint. (Basically was chosen to save film...not for quality)
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post #16 of 29 Old 05-06-2011, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post
Someone wrote a very detailed article about WHY 24p doesn't look as good as people expect it to. People expected video heaven when it became available on Blu-rays, and then found it wasn't all that great. I forget where I saw it but he explained the technical reasons as to why people are often dissapointed. He said the shutter action in a movie projector helps to hide the judder..on a 24p Blu-ray we get to see it all too well. You are seeing what's really there..we just don't like it. 24 frames per second was chosen in the dark ages for movies...it is far from ideal from a smoothness standpoint. (Basically was chosen to save film...not for quality)
I agree. I prefer Smooth on my Kuros despite the occasional artifacts, which I have learned to live with. I might notice something amiss every 5 or 10 minutes, whereas what I see as bad motion depiction is there almost all of the time even in 72 Hz mode with film material.

I realize I'm in the minority here. I should add that I thought that the 24 fps judder completely ruined the "you are there" effect when I saw Avatar in 3D IMAX. Every time I saw the 24 fps stutter (which was very frequently), it took me out of the scene and reminded me of the limitations of 100-year old frame rate standards.
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post #17 of 29 Old 05-06-2011, 08:24 PM
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I have the same problem that the OP has, but with a different tv, a different Blu-ray player, and a different receiver. I have a 50" Panasonic ST30, a PS3 slim, and a Pioneer 1020-K. But I too, am noticing this 24p judder when the camera pans from left to right, or vice versa. It's horrible when I'm watching Band of Brothers and the camera pans over a building... the shot looks jittery and not smooth at all. I never used to see this when I had my old 720p Panasonic plasma that I bought in 2007. I'm guessing that old Panny wasn't a 24p tv. And I'm assuming my new ST30 is a 24p tv.

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post #18 of 29 Old 05-07-2011, 09:40 AM
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[quote=Robert311;20404063]I have the same problem that the OP has, but with a different tv, a different Blu-ray player, and a different receiver. I have a 50" Panasonic ST30, a PS3 slim, and a Pioneer 1020-K. But I too, am noticing this 24p judder when the camera pans from left to right, or vice versa. It's horrible when I'm watching Band of Brothers and the camera pans over a building... the shot looks jittery and not smooth at all. I never used to see this when I had my old 720p Panasonic plasma that I bought in 2007. I'm guessing that old Panny wasn't a 24p tv. And I'm assuming my new ST30 is a 24p tv.[/QUOTE

The old Panny could not accept 24p input. You only get 24p if your blu-ray player is set to output it. Pans will be blurrier but less jerky using 3:2 pulldown and standard 60 output. You new set can do it either way. Try both.
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post #19 of 29 Old 05-07-2011, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

The old Panny could not accept 24p input. You only get 24p if your blu-ray player is set to output it. Pans will be blurrier but less jerky using 3:2 pulldown and standard 60 output. You new set can do it either way. Try both.

Ok, so that makes sense. If my old Panny plasma couldn't accept 24p, then that's why I never saw the "24p judder", correct?

Regarding 3:2 pulldown, that only works on 1080i material, which Blu-rays are not. So wouldn't 3:2 pulldown be a moot point for me? I don't know what standard 60 output is.

And being as how my ST30 IS a 24p tv, is that why I see the 24p judder? And if I want to change my tv to act like my old tv, how do I do that without sacrificing any quality? Or is this something I should change on my PS3?

Thanks a lot for your help.

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post #20 of 29 Old 05-07-2011, 07:44 PM
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I just came across this article, and it couldn't make more sense to me. This is exactly the clarification that I was looking for...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

The only difference is I'm not using a projector, but other than that, it's all the same.

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post #21 of 29 Old 05-07-2011, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert311 View Post

I just came across this article, and it couldn't make more sense to me. This is exactly the clarification that I was looking for...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

The only difference is I'm not using a projector, but other than that, it's all the same.

Yes that is the article I was thinking of. You can set your Blu-ray player to not output 24p..it is your choice.
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post #22 of 29 Old 05-08-2011, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert311 View Post


Ok, so that makes sense. If my old Panny plasma couldn't accept 24p, then that's why I never saw the "24p judder", correct?

Regarding 3:2 pulldown, that only works on 1080i material, which Blu-rays are not. So wouldn't 3:2 pulldown be a moot point for me? I don't know what standard 60 output is.

And being as how my ST30 IS a 24p tv, is that why I see the 24p judder? And if I want to change my tv to act like my old tv, how do I do that without sacrificing any quality? Or is this something I should change on my PS3?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Judder is due to low frame rate. 3:2 pulldown ingeniously reduce judder by having a pseudo 60fps.

24fps is relatively new in consumer TV. old TV display standard 3:2 pulldown. It works for both 1080i or 1080p.

It depends what you mean by quality. 24fps is native to movie source. 3:2 would remove your judder.
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post #23 of 29 Old 05-08-2011, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Judder is due to low frame rate. 3:2 pulldown ingeniously reduce judder by having a pseudo 60fps.

24fps is relatively new in consumer TV. old TV display standard 3:2 pulldown. It works for both 1080i or 1080p.

It depends what you mean by quality. 24fps is native to movie source. 3:2 would remove your judder.

Ok, that makes sense. But what's odd, is that even though tv's are making improvements in technology, i.e. 24p, the result of that said technology is actually making the viewing experience worse. Even though 24p is native to the movie source, it causes very shaky judder when panning. I can't possibly be the only one who recognizes this as a bad thing. Yes, it's actually what we're meant to see on 24fps, but I just don't like it. My 4 year old Panasonic, even though 720p, looked a lot smoother because it wasn't 24p; it was using 3:2 pulldown.

SO, I obviously want to change my setup. But turning off the 24p option on my PS3 hasn't changed anything. I still get motion judder on my movies. Is there any way to watch 1080p movies on my PS3 AND use 3:2 pulldown to remove the judder? Or was this option only available on older tech tv's like you said?

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post #24 of 29 Old 05-09-2011, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert311 View Post

Ok, that makes sense. But what's odd, is that even though tv's are making improvements in technology, i.e. 24p, the result of that said technology is actually making the viewing experience worse. Even though 24p is native to the movie source, it causes very shaky judder when panning. I can't possibly be the only one who recognizes this as a bad thing. Yes, it's actually what we're meant to see on 24fps, but I just don't like it. My 4 year old Panasonic, even though 720p, looked a lot smoother because it wasn't 24p; it was using 3:2 pulldown.

SO, I obviously want to change my setup. But turning off the 24p option on my PS3 hasn't changed anything. I still get motion judder on my movies. Is there any way to watch 1080p movies on my PS3 AND use 3:2 pulldown to remove the judder? Or was this option only available on older tech tv's like you said?

If you set your player to 3:2 60hz mode it should look similar to your old set. Is your new set bigger than your old one? Bigger set, or sitting closer will show more judder. Maybe you can change the output of your player to 1080i too? 1080i and 1080p should look the same though..it should not affect judder. I have a 1080p Kuro and find the judder looks very similar on 3:2 output mode on my old 768p Panny set. I use 24p though because I think it looks better most of the time, but certainly shows the issues you are complaining about at times.
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post #25 of 29 Old 05-09-2011, 08:07 AM
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Personally, I wish they'd just be done with it and film everything in 60p and just run "variable" framerate by inserting black frames or something in the scenes that don't need the extra frames.
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post #26 of 29 Old 05-09-2011, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post
If you set your player to 3:2 60hz mode it should look similar to your old set. Is your new set bigger than your old one? Bigger set, or sitting closer will show more judder. Maybe you can change the output of your player to 1080i too? 1080i and 1080p should look the same though..it should not affect judder. I have a 1080p Kuro and find the judder looks very similar on 3:2 output mode on my old 768p Panny set. I use 24p though because I think it looks better most of the time, but certainly shows the issues you are complaining about at times.
I have a PS3, and I don't know if it has the option of changing it to 3:2 60hz. I've never seen that option anywhere. The only setting option that comes close is to turn off 24p under the video settings. But like I said before, turning 24p off doesn't help the judder one bit.

I have a new 50" 1080p Panasonic ST30. My old tv was a 42" 720p Panasonic plasma from 2007. I sit the same distance away with both sets. But I know for a fact that 1080i is definitely not the same thing as 1080p, so I will not watch my Blu-rays in 1080i. If I did that, I might as well have kept my old tv and not spent money on my new tv. Back then, and up until I bought my new tv, I never knew of this 3:2 pulldown 60hz thing. Going into buying my new tv, I also didn't know of this 24p judder. I wish I did though, because it's really frustrating. I thought my new tv would be MUCH better in all respects.

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post #27 of 29 Old 05-09-2011, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert311 View Post
I have a PS3, and I don't know if it has the option of changing it to 3:2 60hz. I've never seen that option anywhere. The only setting option that comes close is to turn off 24p under the video settings. But like I said before, turning 24p off doesn't help the judder one bit.

I have a new 50" 1080p Panasonic ST30. My old tv was a 42" 720p Panasonic plasma from 2007. I sit the same distance away with both sets. But I know for a fact that 1080i is definitely not the same thing as 1080p, so I will not watch my Blu-rays in 1080i. If I did that, I might as well have kept my old tv and not spent money on my new tv. Back then, and up until I bought my new tv, I never knew of this 3:2 pulldown 60hz thing. Going into buying my new tv, I also didn't know of this 24p judder. I wish I did though, because it's really frustrating. I thought my new tv would be MUCH better in all respects.
Technically, it is. I think what may be happening is faster phosphors make it more apparent where older sets may have naturally blended together on account of their low rate of update (so you didn't tend to notice abrupt camera jerking since you aren't getting a full refresh at 60hz anyway).

In a way, you can think of it like resolution. If you have a low-resolution picture and you put it up on a 1080p or 4k display, it'll look terrible even though it may look clean and sharp at 320x200 (ie like on a portable gadget). Same way, old sets didn't refresh as quickly which masked judder in a similar way that pulldown did (merging of fields between refresh). Now that the displays have improved and refresh faster, you see poor camera-work much clearer.

So you either have to improve the format or intentionally gimp the set to make it blend better... at least from my understanding.
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post #28 of 29 Old 05-09-2011, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post
Technically, it is. I think what may be happening is faster phosphors make it more apparent where older sets may have naturally blended together on account of their low rate of update (so you didn't tend to notice abrupt camera jerking since you aren't getting a full refresh at 60hz anyway).

In a way, you can think of it like resolution. If you have a low-resolution picture and you put it up on a 1080p or 4k display, it'll look terrible even though it may look clean and sharp at 320x200 (ie like on a portable gadget). Same way, old sets didn't refresh as quickly which masked judder in a similar way that pulldown did (merging of fields between refresh). Now that the displays have improved and refresh faster, you see poor camera-work much clearer.

So you either have to improve the format or intentionally gimp the set to make it blend better... at least from my understanding.
Great feedback. Makes sense. I just want to be able to actually do it. I want to make my new tv work at a 60hz rate as opposed to 24hz when watching blu-ray. If I can do that, then problem solved. But so far, I've had no luck. It seems as if the PS3 doesn't have the option to change to a 60hz frame rate, therefore keeping the judder there when I watch a movie. There's got to be a way to fix this.

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post #29 of 29 Old 05-09-2011, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert311 View Post
Great feedback. Makes sense. I just want to be able to actually do it. I want to make my new tv work at a 60hz rate as opposed to 24hz when watching blu-ray. If I can do that, then problem solved. But so far, I've had no luck. It seems as if the PS3 doesn't have the option to change to a 60hz frame rate, therefore keeping the judder there when I watch a movie. There's got to be a way to fix this.
There has to be a way to fix it in your PS3 menus..a lot of sets can't take a 24p input, and on some like many Pannys it flickers a lot, so people don't use 24p. My LG player's menu lets me pick which way I want the movie sent to my tv.
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